Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 312
# 21
08-07-2012, 06:33 AM
armax, I would rather have 5 carriers who have good setups and know how to use the ship then 5 good setup MVAE ships. The first reason is because all 5 ships can tank way more damage, if you don't believe than how about this I have 6 heals at the moment, how many does your MVAE have? CC is also something that is helpful, sci ships do this very well.
Kyle
Delta Fleet Command
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 103
# 22
08-07-2012, 07:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
turn off your parser its BROKEN

your total damage in an escort is totally unimportant
its always going to be less than the same captain would do in a cruiser
This deserves a big LOL, so basically a tac officer is going to do more damage in a cruiser,
this is the most unreasonable affirmation i heard in a while, after that other of a World class officer can only sustain damage for 45 sec on his target, your the kind of people that even confronting them with the numbers still believe in fairy tales.

Btw a world class pilot is not found in pve enviroment, a world class pilot is a pvper with lots of experience in the matter that prolly put his ship in every combat in the most extreme situations that no exist in pve.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,247
# 23
08-07-2012, 07:44 AM
The unfortunate thing, to me, is in this game DPS is king.

Fact is, I have been in great PVE actions with any mix of Sci, Cruiser, Escort... The current goal of most Elite STF'ers, is to see how quickly you can complete the optional.

The issue as I see it, is that the Borg's Dental Implants have been removed. They really have no real teeth anymore, so yes it is possible to just go 5 escorts, and record insanely low times to optional completion. (Best time on ISE, 9:46 left on optional -- https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48806442/ISE3.jpg)

To me that is too easy... there was a time, in this game, when you looked for a balanced team, and EACH had a role to play... Sci for crowd control/heal, Eng for tanking, and escorts for DPS. There was a time, when it was almost required. But, thanks to the constant nerfing, this isnt the case any longer.

Heck Khito Space used to spawn spheres with EACH probe wave from both sides... that took a balanced team to defeat... now 1 player can handle probes solo, leaving 4 to blow up 4 cubes, 16 generators, 2 transformers, and 2 gateways... without any additional attacking spawns until one of the gateways drops... and even then its only 2 spheres. Maybe 1 person has to help on probe duty then off to gateway destruction until 2 additional probe only spawns pass, then the next 2 spheres come out. Like I said, no teeth anymore.

I would like a return to the days where EACH class had a purpose, and you SOUGHT to have a balanced team... the days when you entered a match saw 5 escorts and immediately thought uh oh... instead of now... oh good, we'll complete faster (or worse when there arent a heavy escort load (like the OP says here), oh great, no optional.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....

Last edited by johnny111971; 08-07-2012 at 07:48 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,561
# 24
08-07-2012, 08:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kylesal24 View Post
armax, I would rather have 5 carriers who have good setups and know how to use the ship then 5 good setup MVAE ships. The first reason is because all 5 ships can tank way more damage, if you don't believe than how about this I have 6 heals at the moment, how many does your MVAE have? CC is also something that is helpful, sci ships do this very well.
Kyle
if bad players fly escorts and can't tank...or take down a tactical cube in a reasonable amount of time thats not the mistake of the escort itself.
Many above average pilots can tank...or atleast stay at 9.9 km to keep aggro without dying, in an escort. I do, and i know atleast 10 more people that can.
My MVAE has 4 heals +2 tac teams...the tac teams alone make my shields nearly unpenetrateable. Also i have a repulsor for CC if nanite probes get too close (deals also a hell of dmg). my engi in the cruiser has 4 heals+2 tactical teams, and tanks any PVE content with eyes closed.

so my point is, that the pilot is the key factor, not the ship. But the fact is also, that current PVE content can be tanked even by escorts, ofcourse you need a PVP setup that is focused on suvival, or an engi pilot)

another fact is: cruisers have their place in this game, and so do sci vessels. But in my opinion it is much harder to be of use in a sci vessel than in a cruiser or escort, especially if the content is focused on timers that demand a heavily DPS oriented setup.

the new blockade event is a perfect example where sci vessels or cruisers perform excellent, if they use CC or tank incoming dmg on the freighters. (have to admit, it is a good designed event)


PS: don't answer to trollvax's posts...you are just feeding the troll.
Go pro or go home
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,391
# 25
08-07-2012, 08:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny111971 View Post
The unfortunate thing, to me, is in this game DPS is king.
That's been true for a very long time, and the worst example of it is STFs for sure.

I think the devs have pushed in the right direction with some of the new fleet events that let the other ship types shine (blockade for example doesn't actually require killing the enemy ships at all)


Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny111971 View Post
The issue as I see it, is that the Borg's Dental Implants have been removed. They really have no real teeth anymore, so yes it is possible to just go 5 escorts
Or the teeth are too big and they way overshoot the mark like with Isometric charge.


Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny111971 View Post
and record insanely low times to optional completion. (Best time on ISE, 9:46 left on optional -- https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48806442/ISE3.jpg)
Sure, you had to post one I wasn't there for.


Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny111971 View Post
To me that is too easy... there was a time, in this game, when you looked for a balanced team, and EACH had a role to play... Sci for crowd control/heal, Eng for tanking, and escorts for DPS. There was a time, when it was almost required. But, thanks to the constant nerfing, this isnt the case any longer.
I think Sci ships and Cruisers need a better position on STFs - but at the same time don't mistake the times we and other teams like us run for what constitutes an STF.

We've easily run those missions what, 1K times per STF possibly?




Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny111971 View Post
I would like a return to the days where EACH class had a purpose, and you SOUGHT to have a balanced team... the days when you entered a match saw 5 escorts and immediately thought uh oh... instead of now...
As I mentioned the fleet events have pushed in the right direction, they're a good start.

The truth, I think, is the balance point.

In order for them to have a PUG Queue that is completely balanced around 5 total strangers in any ship with any captain actually being able to complete the mission - the missions themselves can't overstress any specific role like tanking/healing/debuffs/cc.

In a game environment that does not stress those things for completion, you end up with what we have.

A lot hybrid ships and ultimately with damage being king.

That being said 1 really good sci ship can dominate half of blockade solo while the rest of the team either splits off or plays a support/clean up role (yes, even the escorts).
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 26
08-07-2012, 08:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by armax View Post
Timers have completely destroyed the usefulness of cruisers and sci vessels (especially anything in T5), hell even the Odyssey for that matter. Seems like the Dreadnought Cruiser can still hang but that is about it on the cruiser line. Sure it is okay to get 1 cruiser/sci/T5 (unless it is an escort) but that is about it. Get any more cruisers in there and you won't beat the timer with normal players. Timers seriously need to be looked at. The last match I was in there were 2 Odyssey's, 1 sov and 2 escorts and we still couldn't beat the timer. This was on Federation Fleet Alert. The match before last same issue except there were two Sovereigns and 1 Sci, two escorts and we didn't win it. Got back in my escorted, dropped into a match that ended up with 3 escorts, 1 Odyssey and 1 Dreadnought, we still only beat the timer by 45 seconds. Yesterday 4 escorts ruled it missing 1 player who dropped when we started. I have been noticing this more and more, when I see more then 1 cruiser I am betting we can't win since 2 seem to be pushing it. Any more then 2 and it is almost 100% assured it is going to be a fail. Not sure if the cruiser just needs it's dps upped or if the timer needs to be pushed out longer but something needs to be done.
The sad reality of the game is that ever since it went to F2P all the complexity of science and engineering went down the toilet as the devs made the game into a stupid dps-centric experience.

Before F2P a science ship could kill with science as well as an escort did with weapons. Cruisers were masters of engineering skills and were incredible tanks and damage dealers. Escorts were the burst damage/positional damage ships... they did nowhere the amount of damage they do now but instead had the speed and maneuverability to attack a shield facing and keep hitting it hard and kill.

Now... with the DPS-centric changes... escorts rule over everything. They get the absolute best defenses, best damage, best speed, best everything except shield and hull stats...which is neigh since death means very little and escorts who keep up their speed and tac abilities active simply don't die.

The game will not go back to having a clear role for science ships and cruisers. Its a F2P game and the only thing they care about is selling garbage on the zen store. Garbage is easier sold to dps-centric players.
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Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 321
# 27
08-07-2012, 08:47 AM
A good player in a properly built T5 ship can make any of the ship types work. Get 5 of them, and you get the STF done with optional, no matter what they're flying.

That said, there's so much wearing down of huge, dumb (or in some cases, completely passive) targets that damage output is still the most valuable thing to have in STFs. Because of that, the more Escorts you have, the more capacity you'll generally have to cover a weak player. It's also a lot easier to build and fly a good DPS-spec Escort than a good tank or good Science vessel (at least in my opinion anyway). So nearly any eejit should be able to throw a decent Escort together and fly it more or less correctly once they've been enlightened about weapon selection and rainbow beams.

The only thing that'd fix this is an NPC redesign, imo. All the Borg can come up with at the moment to seriously threaten a player (unless some's done a Leeroy Jenkins and is totally overwhlemed by Borg ships) is ridiculous critical hits, which, quite correctly, btw, had to be toned down because they were such obnoxious 1 hit kills. So now there's not a whole lot, which means doing a mission with 5 ships of the theoretically least durable class is a non issue, even with the extended respawn timer. What the NPCs need is more abilities and more sustained (not spike) DPS so it's harder to hang in a fight with them without some help.

As for the Fleet missions, imho, Starbase Blockade is the only real improvement in terms of non-DPS ship viability. I find a Sci ship a superior choice to an Escort on Blockade, although both still work fine. Yeah, a Carrier is better, but not everyone is a Klingon or has 20 quid for an Atrox. Haven't got around to trying my Cruiser in it yet.

Fleet Alert and Fleet Defense seem set up for DPS-centric ships to me. I've not tried NWS since it went live.

Last edited by skhc; 08-07-2012 at 08:51 AM.
Ensign
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1
# 28
08-07-2012, 09:04 AM
Quote:
Now... with the DPS-centric changes...
It is not a change, it is just the base of STO combat system like you can see it in all the MMO.

When a target have the same potentiel in combat with 100 % of his HP (or structure points or other things like this) and 1 % of his HP : the only way that count is DPS. You have to kill it quick, absolutly no interest to have a target exhausted or something like that cause it can deal 100 % of his potential damage.

Scientists are useless cause :
- a team of 4 tactics and 1 scientist dont deliver more DPS than a team of 5 tactics (in fact the first team deliver less).
- 4 tactics in a team dont survive more with the help of 1 scientist cause tactics can survive by themselve.

Cruiser are useless cause :
- the system is based on DPS and a cruiser dont play in that register.
- an escort is actualy better to survive in a fight than a cruiser cause of defense stat that rules the game and the movement capacities and escape capacities of the escort.

If you want to see some change you have to think a new game where :
- the better escort never survive longer that the worst cruiser. In fact it is harder to sink a carrier than a zodiac except in STO world.
- make cruiser what they are : a weapon plateform who can be adapted in combat to their target and can supportb a long fight.
- make escort what they are : little ship who can deliver good damage if they are in number (not alone or in duo) ; not adaptative and unable to support a long fight.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,561
# 29
08-07-2012, 09:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skhc View Post
A good player in a properly built T5 ship can make any of the ship types work. Get 5 of them, and you get the STF done with optional, no matter what they're flying.

That said, there's so much wearing down of huge, dumb (or in some cases, completely passive) targets that damage output is still the most valuable thing to have in STFs. Because of that, the more Escorts you have, the more capacity you'll generally have to cover a weak player. It's also a lot easier to build and fly a good DPS-spec Escort than a good tank or good Science vessel (at least in my opinion anyway). So nearly any eejit should be able to throw a decent Escort together and fly it more or less correctly once they've been enlightened about weapon selection and rainbow beams.

The only thing that'd fix this is an NPC redesign, imo. All the Borg can come up with at the moment to seriously threaten a player (unless some's done a Leeroy Jenkins and is totally overwhlemed by Borg ships) is ridiculous critical hits, which, quite correctly, btw, had to be toned down because they were such obnoxious 1 hit kills. So now there's not a whole lot, which means doing a mission with 5 ships of the theoretically least durable class is a non issue, even with the extended respawn timer. What the NPCs need is more abilities and more sustained (not spike) DPS so it's harder to hang in a fight with them without some help.

As for the Fleet missions, imho, Starbase Blockade is the only real improvement in terms of non-DPS ship viability. I find a Sci ship a superior choice to an Escort on Blockade, although both still work fine. Yeah, a Carrier is better, but not everyone is a Klingon or has 20 quid for an Atrox. Haven't got around to trying my Cruiser in it yet.

Fleet Alert and Fleet Defense seem set up for DPS-centric ships to me. I've not tried NWS since it went live.

every single point you brought up is absolutely right. Excellent comment. But i highlighted the ones most important for everybody to see.
Go pro or go home
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 312
# 30
08-07-2012, 09:22 AM
baudl, What I meant was that with avg. players I would rather have that setup. Well piloted escorts are great, it is just rare to find a good pilot in PUG fleet events. I still think that carriers have a big role though. You want to try to meet up sometime in game?
Kyle
Delta Fleet Command
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