Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 960
# 31
08-10-2012, 12:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dknight0001 View Post
I have never thought of the Defiant as a Corvette, it does sound right but. You know what the Escorts in this game do fit the Corvette definition better than Escort IMO.
True, though the only problem there is that the naval term "corvette" was never used in Star Trek. Plus, it's a warship term, so "Escort" is more bleeding-heart friendly

Quote:
I have a theory on the visible rarity of the Ambassador class and the overt prevalence of the Miranda and Excelsior. Forgetting the obvious issues with television production costs, re-using already built models for the movies, using existing footage, etc.. my fictional theory goes as follows.
Cool story bro, but I'm thinking that Occam's Razor applies here, even fictionally.

Look at it this way: In the fiction, pre-Dominion War, there were only supposed to be SIX Galaxy-class ships in service because they were big.

The Galaxy class was supposed to replace the Ambassador class.

With that in mind, why would you ever need to make a ton of Ambassadors visible, if they could all be replaced with six Galaxies?
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,547
# 32
08-10-2012, 01:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by podsix View Post
I have a theory on the visible rarity of the Ambassador class and the overt prevalence of the Miranda and Excelsior. Forgetting the obvious issues with television production costs, re-using already built models for the movies, using existing footage, etc.. my fictional theory goes as follows.
that all sounds about right. theres no reason for an ambassador class to perform menial tasks like bringing something or someone to the enterprise.

i think the miranda won out because its aft hull section that was 4 or 5 decks thick could be so modular. its usable space over a connie was simply much greater. also, in every cutaway of a connie i see there is a huge cargo bay taking up half the interior of the secondary hull, presumably for carrying enough supplies for a 5+ year deep space assignment. seeing as the ship was eventually undersized for its purpose built assignment, it would make sense to discontinue the class and take it out of service. even with a refit it wouldn't be able to do the closer to home assignments the miranda does, better then the miranda already does them.

the connie was a nice large ship in the 2240s, even up to the 2270s. but by 2300 the ship was simply undersized for its usual assignments, the correct, safe size for going out to parts unknown by then was the dramatically larger excelsior class. and the constellation class that i think was created from the mass decommissioning of connies. stacking 2 saucers on top of each other, using 4 nacelles, 2 connie style impulse engines, and all the other unique components could be fabricated from the scraped secondary hullls. the miranda was never equipped with such extensive long range supply storage, it was always intended to be a within the borders ship, and it must of done its job incredibly well to last 100 years.

any connie parts you see at wolf 359, which is very close to earth, were likly acadamy training ships. the class seemed suited for that role and some were proboly kept around for that purpose. being a ship most likly to be close to earth, its no wonder they sent them and any other functioning ship they could against the incoming borg.

when the ambassador replaced the excelsior as the primary explorer, the excelsior was still considered a large capable ship, suited for basically any mission you could ask of it, it wasn't as hamstrung as a long range ship as the connie eventually was. the excelsior and miranda were so good at handling everything but the longest range and most dangerous missions that new intermediate classes weren't needed for 40 years.

that complacency turned out to be a problem when some of the federation's neighbors went to war with them, like the cardassian War from the 2340s ? 2367, somehow that war lasted that long, and its likely because the federation had so many outdated ships that were fine for everything but combat with more modern ships. around the time the galaxy and nebula class launched though, that war came to an end, i see a connection lol. there was a tholian war that was going on in the 2350s and resulted in the destruction of at least 1 starbase, possibly a huge spacedock sized base. there was also several Tzenkethi Wars, the latest taking place in the early 2360s, Sisko fought in that conflict and mentioned it was only the latest.

this is why there are so many supper modern classes of ships introduced in the 2360s and 2370s, and the borg and dominian threats only amplified a build up. those cheyenne, new orleans, freedom, etc.. were all proboly built in the late 2340s to early 2360s in an effort to modernize the fleet, likely built off the research going into the galaxy class that took about 20 years to go from drawing board to active service. for its size, by then the ambassador would have been very under gunned, its phaser arrays very short. the new cheyenne and new orleans wile smaller then the ambassador had much larger phaser arrays and could use the power of many more emitters in each shot. they were likely what held the line during this time, wile the ambassador with its tactical shortcomings remained in deep space.

its also proboly why the ambassador is a no show so often, even a ship as small as the intrepid has bigger phaser arrays, without a significant rebuild of the primary hull its firepower couldn't be increased to the level a ship its size should have. so its used where a large long range ship is needed but not were combat is expected. the sovereign is about the same volume as an ambassador, wile having significantly more firepower. it likely was intended to take over as the light battleship/heavy battle cruiser of the fleet, or explorer/explorer in starfleet speak

by 2409, its likely the ambassador is getting its last major refit before the class is decommissioned, im sure starfleet wanted to get at least 80 years out of the class. in game things like shrimpy phaser arrays don't really mater, only those of us that have read the tng tech manual and debated about how phsers work for years on the internet know that array length is an additive power increasing facter with phaser arrays. in game we also fire 8 beams at a time, were in canon they would just fire 1 super powerful shot at a time if they wanted to deal maximum damage.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,547
# 33
08-10-2012, 01:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dknight0001 View Post
I have never thought of the Defiant as a Corvette, it does sound right but. You know what the Escorts in this game do fit the Corvette definition better than Escort IMO.

Please no, not that BOFF layout. While I can't see any problems; with the amount of complaints against the Gal-R I don't want to see thousand of threads complaining about the worst BOFF layout in the game, except on the Negh'Var where it's seemingly fine.

Every time I bring up it's the Negh'Var layout I get told how awesome the Negh'Var is and how to build one, yet that advice never applies to the Gal-R.
corvette is a sized based classification, escort is a roll. starfleet likes leaving out those old miliray classifications and just calls a ship by its roll more often then not. they seems to call everything a cruiser or an explorer.

the ambassador should basically have the setup the galaxy has, only with a beter turn rate, and a more useful 9th console, basically what the negvar has. the galaxy not having a 3rd tactical console, and turning so poorly really takes away from its ability to deal even basic damage over time like the negvar can. the neg can even use lower arc weapons pretty well. its movement and console put it head and shoulders above the galaxy, at least making it a viable and useful ship. the gal R just has to many things going against it, every disadvantage a ship in this game could have. the galaxy's station setup and consoles should change, its absurd how poorly its stated compared to everything else, when its literally starfleet's battleship in canon



Quote:
Originally Posted by unangbangkay View Post
Cool story bro, but I'm thinking that Occam's Razor applies here, even fictionally.

Look at it this way: In the fiction, pre-Dominion War, there were only supposed to be SIX Galaxy-class ships in service because they were big.

The Galaxy class was supposed to replace the Ambassador class.

With that in mind, why would you ever need to make a ton of Ambassadors visible, if they could all be replaced with six Galaxies?
starfleet isn't composed of about 100 ships, there are 10s of thousands in service. those first 6 ships were just the first 6 frames that were made, all basically at once. soon after the class launched there were hundreds of them, they hd been cranking them out ever since and had 1 for every other 10 ships in all the fleet battles we saw. there were proboly hundreds of ambassadors built during its prime too.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus

Last edited by dontdrunkimshoot; 08-10-2012 at 01:22 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 34
08-10-2012, 03:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
I think it means there was somehting in service that used the Constitution secondary hull as a part, just like the Miranda uses slightly shortened Constitution nacelles as parts of its own design.




Battlecruiser is not "above" the heavy cruiser design.
In fact the designation battlecruiser predates the heavy cruiser designation by over a decade.
The two are totally different design approaches since a battlecruiser is a ship roughly the mass of a dreadnought-type capital ship (later redesignated "battleship" in the Washington naval treaty of 1922) but with substantially reduced armor in favour of more engine power for speed.
They have little to do with each other unless your only knowledge about naval combat comes from reading the Starfleet Command 1 manual.
We are talking about Star Trek battlecruisers, not WW1 and 2 sea battlecruisers. The reasons for ships advancements in space are totally different than past ship advancements in water. During the Motion Picture series of movies the Constitution Class Enterprise-A was referred as "Federation Battlecruiser,"(The Search For Spock) by the the Klingons. As ships advanced, others will take that role as the older ones downgrade. The Excelsiors took that role and as the Constitution class were less armed and armored. If you would of played any other Star Trek games besides STO, you would of known that battlecruiser is one of the Federation's classifications. As the Excelsior class was then bested by the Ambassidor Class so it would have to been downgraded to heavy cruiser. The Ambassidor Class came out during a time of war with the Romulans. The Exploration Class came out later during a time of peace when it was deamed safe for civilians and families to be stationed on the starship. Now we are back in a time of war and the Abassidor would fit right into that battlecruiser role.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 35
08-10-2012, 04:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
that all sounds about right. theres no reason for an ambassador class to perform menial tasks like bringing something or someone to the enterprise.

i think the miranda won out because its aft hull section that was 4 or 5 decks thick could be so modular. its usable space over a connie was simply much greater. also, in every cutaway of a connie i see there is a huge cargo bay taking up half the interior of the secondary hull, presumably for carrying enough supplies for a 5+ year deep space assignment. seeing as the ship was eventually undersized for its purpose built assignment, it would make sense to discontinue the class and take it out of service. even with a refit it wouldn't be able to do the closer to home assignments the miranda does, better then the miranda already does them.

the connie was a nice large ship in the 2240s, even up to the 2270s. but by 2300 the ship was simply undersized for its usual assignments, the correct, safe size for going out to parts unknown by then was the dramatically larger excelsior class. and the constellation class that i think was created from the mass decommissioning of connies. stacking 2 saucers on top of each other, using 4 nacelles, 2 connie style impulse engines, and all the other unique components could be fabricated from the scraped secondary hullls. the miranda was never equipped with such extensive long range supply storage, it was always intended to be a within the borders ship, and it must of done its job incredibly well to last 100 years.

any connie parts you see at wolf 359, which is very close to earth, were likly acadamy training ships. the class seemed suited for that role and some were proboly kept around for that purpose. being a ship most likly to be close to earth, its no wonder they sent them and any other functioning ship they could against the incoming borg.

when the ambassador replaced the excelsior as the primary explorer, the excelsior was still considered a large capable ship, suited for basically any mission you could ask of it, it wasn't as hamstrung as a long range ship as the connie eventually was. the excelsior and miranda were so good at handling everything but the longest range and most dangerous missions that new intermediate classes weren't needed for 40 years.

that complacency turned out to be a problem when some of the federation's neighbors went to war with them, like the cardassian War from the 2340s ? 2367, somehow that war lasted that long, and its likely because the federation had so many outdated ships that were fine for everything but combat with more modern ships. around the time the galaxy and nebula class launched though, that war came to an end, i see a connection lol. there was a tholian war that was going on in the 2350s and resulted in the destruction of at least 1 starbase, possibly a huge spacedock sized base. there was also several Tzenkethi Wars, the latest taking place in the early 2360s, Sisko fought in that conflict and mentioned it was only the latest.

this is why there are so many supper modern classes of ships introduced in the 2360s and 2370s, and the borg and dominian threats only amplified a build up. those cheyenne, new orleans, freedom, etc.. were all proboly built in the late 2340s to early 2360s in an effort to modernize the fleet, likely built off the research going into the galaxy class that took about 20 years to go from drawing board to active service. for its size, by then the ambassador would have been very under gunned, its phaser arrays very short. the new cheyenne and new orleans wile smaller then the ambassador had much larger phaser arrays and could use the power of many more emitters in each shot. they were likely what held the line during this time, wile the ambassador with its tactical shortcomings remained in deep space.

its also proboly why the ambassador is a no show so often, even a ship as small as the intrepid has bigger phaser arrays, without a significant rebuild of the primary hull its firepower couldn't be increased to the level a ship its size should have. so its used where a large long range ship is needed but not were combat is expected. the sovereign is about the same volume as an ambassador, wile having significantly more firepower. it likely was intended to take over as the light battleship/heavy battle cruiser of the fleet, or explorer/explorer in starfleet speak

by 2409, its likely the ambassador is getting its last major refit before the class is decommissioned, im sure starfleet wanted to get at least 80 years out of the class. in game things like shrimpy phaser arrays don't really mater, only those of us that have read the tng tech manual and debated about how phsers work for years on the internet know that array length is an additive power increasing facter with phaser arrays. in game we also fire 8 beams at a time, were in canon they would just fire 1 super powerful shot at a time if they wanted to deal maximum damage.
Let's not speculate. If you don't have an actual script or story passage saying that all Constitution Class ships were decomissioned before the Battle of Wolf 359, then you can't say they were, by just guessing.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,547
# 36
08-10-2012, 04:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
Let's not speculate. If you don't have an actual script or story passage saying that all Constitution Class ships were decomissioned before the Battle of Wolf 359, then you can't say they were, by just guessing.
its a very educated guess. there simply isnt an example in canon that could prove 90% of what there is to talk about true or false. very few things really have any hard canon backing them up. throughout what i wrote i did reference things stated in canon over and over again, and filled in blanks as logically as possible between them.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 451
# 37
08-10-2012, 09:09 PM
Well when picard is talking to scotty it certainly seemed like the last constitution class starship was in a museum back on earth. While that is after wolf 359, its honestly not in the least unreasonable to speculate that they have been decommissioned a long time before that.

I just don't know where the ambassador would fit maybe a science heavy cruiser ? But we would need the vesta in as a science ship for that to happen.... I wonder what the next tactical ship will be though. Even a new klingon ship would be cool and nice to see.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 99
# 38
08-10-2012, 10:33 PM
I'm pretty sure the Vesta's going to be an escort.

Edit: Scratch that, just checked the wiki and proved myself wrong, nothing to see here.

I can totally see the Ambassador as a science-oriented "Research Cruiser" at some tier or another, the only question really is which one? To me the ship feels like it should fit in at tier 3, but there's also not much reason to put it there. On the other hand if you put it at tier 5 to compliment the Galaxy X and Galaxy Retrofit it just seem right either, like the ship should be too old or too weak for that slot. I suppose it could work at tier 4 alongside the Galaxy and Venture, but that doesn't seem right either.

Personally I think it should've been Excelsior at tier 2 followed by Ambassador>Galaxy>Sovereign with the Constitution either replacing the Miranda or being sold at tier 2 through the C-store. That's just my 2ec though.

Last edited by terloki; 08-10-2012 at 10:35 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,078
# 39
08-11-2012, 12:16 AM
gecko on his twitter said the ambassador will be both a T3 and T5 like the excelsior
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 40
08-11-2012, 07:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
its a very educated guess. there simply isnt an example in canon that could prove 90% of what there is to talk about true or false. very few things really have any hard canon backing them up. throughout what i wrote i did reference things stated in canon over and over again, and filled in blanks as logically as possible between them.
Thats fine but my eyes don't lie. If I see Constitution hulks, I going to say they were in service and not training ships because there were quite alot of them. That Admiral didn't mention mustering training ships and crews to defend Earth. A lot of experienced captains and crews lost their lives during the Battle of Wolf 359.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:49 AM.