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# 41
08-11-2012, 07:34 AM
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USS Excalibur


The USS Excalibur (NCC-26517) was a Federation Ambassador-class heavy cruiser that was in service with Starfleet in the mid-24th century.

The Excalibur survived an attack by the Borg during a night shift sometime prior to 2368. Several members of the crew, including Marika Wilkarah, were assimilated in the encounter. (VOY: "Survival Instinct")

In 2368, the Excalibur was undergoing a major refit and repair at Starbase 234. It was selected by Captain Jean-Luc Picard to serve in a Starfleet blockade of the Klingon-Romulan border during the Klingon Civil War. During that mission, it was commanded by Commander William T. Riker, with Lt. Commander Geordi La Forge as first officer since the Excalibur's crew had been reassigned due to the extent of the refit. (TNG: "Redemption II")

The is no mention in Memory Alpha of it being listed as a science ship. It would be in its own heavy cruiser catagory like the Excelsior regular and retrofit. The same reason they brought the Excelsior Retrofit to tier 5 is the same reason the STO will have a tier 5 Ambassador Class.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 267
# 42 this is why...
08-13-2012, 08:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dknight0001 View Post
From what the Developers are saying the ship is coming. No time frame, no dates and no plans. Since the next ship to come out is the Regent upgrade to the Assault Cruiser I would say not until a month or two after that at the earliest but I could be completely wrong.

I'm not sure but going by the show, it can't have been that practical as a ship. With Oberths, Excelsiors and even Mirandas around next to the Galaxy no Ambassador classes where ever seen except for Yesterdays Enterprise. And the Galaxy was a pretty new design at the time of TNG.
The reason for this is because they built an Ambassador, practically from scratch where they already had Oberths, Mirandas, and Excelsiors already made from the Trek movies, along with the Galaxy from TNG.
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# 43 Because.........
08-13-2012, 08:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjumetley View Post
I really don't understand the need to open x amount of threads concerning the same thing. Do you think it'll speed things up? Do you think the Devs will read it? They surely get sick of just seeing the name "Ambassador".
Actually, that aproach worked to get the Cat Carrier and Akira into the game...if history repeats.

Last edited by paragon92518; 08-13-2012 at 08:08 PM.
Captain
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# 44
08-13-2012, 08:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
its a very educated guess. there simply isnt an example in canon that could prove 90% of what there is to talk about true or false. very few things really have any hard canon backing them up. throughout what i wrote i did reference things stated in canon over and over again, and filled in blanks as logically as possible between them.
The very same logic you used in assuming the Ambassador class was mass produced could be applied to the Connie refit. There were probably hundreds of them in service and it would be an absolute waste to just dump so many fine ships. Furthermore, there are gigantic amounts of evidence that many ships from that era still served in the TNG time zone. So why would such a comparatively great vessel get shut down when it has not happened to any other ship in ST history?
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# 45
08-13-2012, 10:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
The very same logic you used in assuming the Ambassador class was mass produced could be applied to the Connie refit. There were probably hundreds of them in service and it would be an absolute waste to just dump so many fine ships. Furthermore, there are gigantic amounts of evidence that many ships from that era still served in the TNG time zone. So why would such a comparatively great vessel get shut down when it has not happened to any other ship in ST history?
i claimed the ambassador was mass produced, but at a low volume compared to a MUCH smaller ship like the excelsior.

by ST6 and the turn of the 24th century, the connie refit was not a fresh new design. it was 30 years old, and built upon a ship that had become antiquated 30 years before, causing starfleet to completely replace it in a manor never before seen and never seen since. the refit was little more then a recycling program, the original and refit dont have a single bulk head in common.

they didn't build a larger ship like they proboly should have then, its volume is only 10% higher. the original connie was the right size in 2245, by 2270 they should have built something bigger. they sure did build the excelsior to be a big ship, this time its likely the right size for the right time, wile the connie was an undersized underpowered mistake starfleet has been regretting for decades. i say this and i love the connie refit, but the excelsior is hardly an incremental upping in size. the excelsior is 3.7 times the volume of the connie refit, and its direct replacement.

by the time tng happened, the ambassador class is in a similar place as the connie at the turn of the 24th century. in both cases a new ship design is launched that makes the old design look as antiquated and outdated as it actually is. only in the ambassador's case its still the 3rd largest ship in the fleet, and it was the main battleship, not a mass produced heavy cruiser throughout its production cycle.

the connie was past its prime by 2300, it couldn't fill its role anymore, and there was no roles to downgrade it too, the miranda clearly was already a better fit for them. you see miranda class through the dominion war, and you only see a single hunk of twisted connie metal in the remains of the borg battle field were the stakes couldn't be higher. it was the kitchen sink, the lack of any other appearances in the entire 24th century speaks volumes. you see constellation class several times though, i already theorized they built the constellation class out of decommissioned connies, its ether that or they just recycled them, and at least 1 is in a museum.
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Captain
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# 46
08-14-2012, 01:01 AM
Your assertion that the Miranda class was superior in its later roles to the Connie refit is pure speculation. The refit had a much larger deflector that was forward facing, and much of the of the reliants aft section was taken up by shuttle bays.
We can see the power difference in the battle they fought. For the first shot, Khans man used the phaser pod on the roll bar, implying it was more powerful than the saucer versions it shared with the refit. The phasers do great damage to the Enterprise when they hit the right spot, but when the enterprise uses its normal phasers it does just as much if not more damage, even after being practically crippled.
But the real deal breaker separating the two classes is the warp core. The main source of power for a star ship is at least three times bigger in favor of the Constitution refit class. Here are a couple of links just for show, with an excelsior refit thrown in to show that with proper upgrades a Connie refit could rival even that beast in power.
http://lcars24.com/schem6.html
http://lcars24.com/schem22.html
http://lcars24.com/schem7.html
Your argument that size and role replacement justify fleet wide decommissions is flawed for a couple more reasons. Why should star fleet leave such a big size gap between their smallest combat ship and the excelsior, as the Connie refit is bigger than the reliant, wouldn't a fleet of connie refits be more long lasting, subject to less wear and tear, and capable of longer journeys compared to it's underpowered little brother you call its replacement? Its larger crew would be more well distributed, and more capable of adapting to varied emergencies. The ship has a higher safety rating in the warp department thanks to its distanced warp nacelles. Finally, if size is such a big deterrent for small star fleet vessels, what is the Oberth class doing still in the fleet? Anything they put in that ship could easily fit even inside a reliant class.
So I ask again, why would the Federation break a tradition kept with every single other ship of the TMP era or higher, that included serious mass production and upkeep?
The likeliest answer is that they did continue to use them, but were not shown because altering the Refit model would have been sacrilege, along with blowing it up, if even just for show or consistency. The idea is that Federation space is pretty big, and they need ships of all shapes and sizes, just because the refit class does not fulfill its original role as well as it used to does not mean it would stop being a great work horse for star fleet. Besides, its not like parts for that class were limited or anything, what with all the miranda's we see.
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# 47
08-14-2012, 10:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
Your assertion that the Miranda class was superior in its later roles to the Connie refit is pure speculation. The refit had a much larger deflector that was forward facing, and much of the of the reliants aft section was taken up by shuttle bays.
that high end deflector would be useful in deep space, apparently the tasks the miranda performs don't require one like it. so its likely a big, unnecessary piece of equipment that at the very least is redundant and at most a costly thing to maintain. ether makes the connie less ideal then the already present miranda at doing inner territory assignments

Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
We can see the power difference in the battle they fought. For the first shot, Khans man used the phaser pod on the roll bar, implying it was more powerful than the saucer versions it shared with the refit. The phasers do great damage to the Enterprise when they hit the right spot, but when the enterprise uses its normal phasers it does just as much if not more damage, even after being practically crippled.
its likely the role bar phasers were more powerful then the standard ball turrets, but with a lower fireing arc. the enterprise was directing 2 beams to the same spot, wile you only really see 1 roll bar beam hit the enterprise at a time. khan's ship was still in much better shape, but he was vulnerable so he disengaged, he didn't know the enterprise couldn't fire any more shots at that point. in the tng era the role bar beams arent even utilized anymore so it doesn't really mater. it just has a couple array type emitters stuffed in the old ball turret ports.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
But the real deal breaker separating the two classes is the warp core. The main source of power for a star ship is at least three times bigger in favor of the Constitution refit class. Here are a couple of links just for show, with an excelsior refit thrown in to show that with proper upgrades a Connie refit could rival even that beast in power.
http://lcars24.com/schem6.html
http://lcars24.com/schem22.html
http://lcars24.com/schem7.html
its unknown what the purpose of height is in a warp core, as long as the main chambers are of similar size they probably produce similar power. the height of the accelerators might make long distance and long term warp travel easier on the core or something. another feature built into the long range explorer connie that is unnecessary for roles the miranda already performs. if this is not the case, and the height directly effects power output, the order of magnitude difference in their power generation wouldn't make sense. they are basically the same volume as each other, how could one function on a fraction of the power? or that schematic is wrong, and theirs a horizontal core in it somewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
Your argument that size and role replacement justify fleet wide decommissions is flawed for a couple more reasons.
i doubt they did a factory recall, it likely happened over 20 or 30 years with the last ship being in service till the 2320s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
Why should star fleet leave such a big size gap between their smallest combat ship and the excelsior, as the Connie refit is bigger than the reliant, wouldn't a fleet of connie refits be more long lasting, subject to less wear and tear, and capable of longer journeys compared to it's underpowered little brother you call its replacement?
the miranda is only 7% smaller then a connie by volume, and lacks all the unnecessary components that would be built into a long range explorer. in a fight its likely the superior ship, fore and aft torps, heavier role bar phasers, a more compact frame, etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
Its larger crew would be more well distributed, and more capable of adapting to varied emergencies. The ship has a higher safety rating in the warp department thanks to its distanced warp nacelles.
less of an issue when your designed to operate in home territories? warp necells have never really shown to be toxic places that you should avoid for your health.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
Finally, if size is such a big deterrent for small star fleet vessels, what is the Oberth class doing still in the fleet? Anything they put in that ship could easily fit even inside a reliant class.
operating cost, its purely scientific role not needing a ship any larger, clearly it performed its function well to have been kept around so long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
So I ask again, why would the Federation break a tradition kept with every single other ship of the TMP era or higher, that included serious mass production and upkeep?
what tradition? the tradition of replacing ships that were outdated when they became to old, to small, and to underpowered to handle the ever growing dangers they encountered wile exploring?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
The likeliest answer is that they did continue to use them, but were not shown because altering the Refit model would have been sacrilege, along with blowing it up, if even just for show or consistency. The idea is that Federation space is pretty big, and they need ships of all shapes and sizes, just because the refit class does not fulfill its original role as well as it used to does not mean it would stop being a great work horse for star fleet. Besides, its not like parts for that class were limited or anything, what with all the miranda's we see.
ive already gone over how it is overbuilt for less glamorous roles then what it was built to do. the fact that the miranda exists, and lacks many of the connies features tell me those features are not needed in those less glamorous roles, take up valuable space, and add unnecessarily to the operating cost of the ship. clearly, they kept refiting mirandas and even building them well into the 24th century, you see them everywhere.

with the connie they likely stopped trying to keep it current and gradually removed it from service. how do we explain the decision in ST 3 to instead of refit the enterprise into a full active duty ship again, instead of continuing as a giant school bus, they were just going to retire her? and this was in 2285, 15 years after it became basically a new ship. tells me starfleet was considering the class antiquated then. seeing the miranda in the dominion war tells me starfleet feels very differently about the miranda. these are not conclusions you have to bend over backward to come too.
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# 48
08-14-2012, 11:49 AM
Season 7, I'd guess. The new sector they're adding, in between Klingon and Romulan space, would include the system where the Enterprise-C was destroyed. There's story potential there.
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# 49
08-14-2012, 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
starfleet isn't composed of about 100 ships, there are 10s of thousands in service. those first 6 ships were just the first 6 frames that were made, all basically at once. soon after the class launched there were hundreds of them, they hd been cranking them out ever since and had 1 for every other 10 ships in all the fleet battles we saw. there were proboly hundreds of ambassadors built during its prime too.
Well Starfleet may not be composed of a 100 ships but it most likely has large numbers of smaller unglamorous non-combat ships that take up registry numbers.

Lets look back at ship building on the show. The Constitution class was meant to be only 12 ships according to Roddenberry. Before that there were only four NX class ships (the finished number might be higher).

Across TNG and DS9 we saw dozens of Miranda. Well generally assumed is that the Miranda is the simpler workhorse design with more ships and more variants built. This is in keeping with when we see these ships come in to being. That militant period of the 2280s when Starfleet was expecting war with the Klingons. So we can expect there to have been lots of easy to build ships to be assembled at this time, Starfleet expected to take losses in any conflict with the Klingons. The KDF at this time appeared to be buildings lots of Birds of Prey and Battlecruisers (based on DS9's battle sequences). Also at this time we get a class of ship that appears almost as much if not more often as the Miranda, the Excelsior. The Excelsior is without a doubt the high end ship design. Construction like this is called High-Low, where a fleet builds both large numbers of expensive and expendable ships. Times of war or threat of war bring this mentality on.

After the Khitomer Accords (and after the Tomed Incident) the threat of war in the Federation is less, although we have small conflicts with the Cardassians, Talarians, Tholians, and Tzenkethi. None of those races proved much of a threat (The Talarians were kind of a joke). So we see smaller numbers of high end ships. We saw 5 Ambassadors across TNG and DS9, other classes we saw even less with the exception of the Nebula (which was most likely built along side the Galaxy class). Having only a half dozen Ambassadors might be been sufficient for the time. I can see this time as an era when the Engineers have more sway then the Generals. The need for fewer ships means all the toys have to be placed on only a few hulls which leads us to the Galaxy class.

At most we saw 10 Galaxy class ships on screen at once in Sacrifice of Angels. Which is still in keeping with the idea from the TNG tech manual that there were six built plus six spaceframes built for future activation. Considering that the 1st Galaxies were put in to service just a few years before the 1st encounter with the Borg its very likely that additional ships were built simply because it was the latest and best design available. And with the Borg threat large numbers of different classes were built all of them smaller, and leaner even the Sovereign.
My Romulan Liberated Borg character made it to Level 30 and beat the (old) Defense of New Romulus with the skill point bug.

Last edited by tlamstrike; 08-14-2012 at 10:16 PM.
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# 50
08-14-2012, 03:11 PM
Dan pretty much said this weekend that the Vesta will be the next ship coming out - just working out some details on licencing fees with the designer - yadda yadda

Looks like the Vesta may hit as early as late Nov early Dec
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