Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 964
# 51
08-14-2012, 07:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
that high end deflector would be useful in deep space, apparently the tasks the miranda performs don't require one like it. so its likely a big, unnecessary piece of equipment that at the very least is redundant and at most a costly thing to maintain. ether makes the connie less ideal then the already present miranda at doing inner territory assignments
Do you seriously not see the need for deflector dishes? Almost every vessel has one, even the ships that are spiritual successors to the miranda class like the akira, steamrunner. nebula, and saber class. They slap one on almost every ship because they are a necessity, even inter-territorial jobs are going to need them. If I am not mistaken they have combat roles as well, giving another combat advantage to the refit class. The wide usage of deflectors also imply that they aren't much of a problem for upkeep, never in any series or movie have I seen an engineering officer complaining about the thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
its likely the role bar phasers were more powerful then the standard ball turrets, but with a lower fireing arc. the enterprise was directing 2 beams to the same spot, wile you only really see 1 roll bar beam hit the enterprise at a time. khan's ship was still in much better shape, but he was vulnerable so he disengaged, he didn't know the enterprise couldn't fire any more shots at that point. in the tng era the role bar beams arent even utilized anymore so it doesn't really mater. it just has a couple array type emitters stuffed in the old ball turret ports.
What is the point of saying all this? The enterprise still did great damage while it was on the brink of destruction. Its later phaser shot blew half of the reliants warp nacelle off while reliant phaser damage only scarred the enterprise nacelles. In fact, the crippled enterprise blew chunks out of the main hull as well. The difference in power at the time was clearly apparent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
its unknown what the purpose of height is in a warp core, as long as the main chambers are of similar size they probably produce similar power. the height of the accelerators might make long distance and long term warp travel easier on the core or something. another feature built into the long range explorer connie that is unnecessary for roles the miranda already performs. if this is not the case, and the height directly effects power output, the order of magnitude difference in their power generation wouldn't make sense. they are basically the same volume as each other, how could one function on a fraction of the power? or that schematic is wrong, and theirs a horizontal core in it somewhere.st ship being in service till the 2320s.
Every starship in star fleet that has shown its guts featured a vertical warp core. I am basing my arguments upon known star fleet traditions, while you have to make do with guess work. You are also assuming the miranda class only fulfills the role of inter-territory functions.
But this brings up another great point, the basic enterprise form has been maintained throughout star fleet history for several reasons. The ships had to be long distance capable, and this is the shape they had. One can only assume the adage about its form benefitting a warp field is true in one way or another. Even in star fleet space, the connie refit could get more done in a shorter amount of time. Since it could go farther, that means less breaks and down time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
less of an issue when your designed to operate in home territories? warp necells have never really shown to be toxic places that you should avoid for your health.
This is not a canon fact to my distinct knowledge, but the original designer of the Enterprise stated that objects capable of such wildly fantastic acts would be highly toxic. Correct me if im wrong but I think they might mention this in the enterprise episode where they have to hide in the specially sealed portions of the warp nacelles. At the very least we know that warp nacelles are highly explosive, and capable of destroying an entire vessel if they are pressured in the wrong way, proving that connie refit is safer in that regard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
operating cost, its purely scientific role not needing a ship any larger, clearly it performed its function well to have been kept around so long.
Even if you continue with the illogical assumption that the miranda class was only used for deep federation space its roles could not be possibly limited to science ones. There are many episodes of trek where the lead ship needs to carry supplies or people to various locations. The connie refit is bigger and therefore better at those roles. If science were the only duty of an old ship, the connie refit would still be better at it due to, once again, its deflector. I agree that the miranda class did well to stay around for so long, but everything it did could be done better by the connie refit. And if size is such an important factor in star fleet, what with all the size increases we see, it would make no sense to produce more miranda class ships than connies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
what tradition? the tradition of replacing ships that were outdated when they became to old, to small, and to underpowered to handle the ever growing dangers they encountered wile exploring?
Every thing in this statement applies more to the oberth and miranda class than the connie refit, and we still see tons of those two ships.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
ive already gone over how it is overbuilt for less glamorous roles then what it was built to do. the fact that the miranda exists, and lacks many of the connies features tell me those features are not needed in those less glamorous roles, take up valuable space, and add unnecessarily to the operating cost of the ship. clearly, they kept refiting mirandas and even building them well into the 24th century, you see them everywhere.

with the connie they likely stopped trying to keep it current and gradually removed it from service. how do we explain the decision in ST 3 to instead of refit the enterprise into a full active duty ship again, instead of continuing as a giant school bus, they were just going to retire her? and this was in 2285, 15 years after it became basically a new ship. tells me starfleet was considering the class antiquated then. seeing the miranda in the dominion war tells me starfleet feels very differently about the miranda. these are not conclusions you have to bend over backward to come too.
They are actually a pretty wild group of conclusions. Iv just gone through how the connie is shown as better in almost every regard to the miranda class. Every book and game on the subject puts the connie refit above the miranda class in performance. In the legendary battle between the two ships, the connie refit showed itself as vastly superior. Your baseless statements run deep, deepest in the assumption that these ships are only used in federation space later on. But the thing about space is that the more you get, the more you are exposed to. Not using these ships in comparitively safer exploratory rolls would be a waste of resources.
You can bring up the decommissioning of the enterprise, on both accounts, but there could be any number of reasons behind those events. The first one could have been done with lots of politics involved, making sure the powder keg of explosive relations Kirk spurred on from the klingons stayed dry. The klingons jumped at every opportunity to take him out. In addition, Kirk had acquired a true bounty of experience in his travels, and it was time to put him behind a desk with a gleaming name plate that give him the authority and presence within star fleet he deserved, avoiding a public incident upon his death could also be a factor. The first decommission takes place during a time where we knew there were other connies in service too, since they took another one to make the alpha which stayed in service even further.
The second decommission was probably for a museum, a likely destination for the original historic vessel. The reasons for these shelvings can be seen in the events those ships catered to. You don't simply let a ship with a history and proven track record like that go and leave lessor vessels to fill its void.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,429
# 52
08-14-2012, 11:18 PM
i really see no point in trying to argue with you any further. the only conclusion your capable of coming to is the connie is simply too good to ever do away with. no amount of evidence to the contrary is going to change your mind. here are canon facts

1. the miranda lacks a large navigation deflector. why?

2. the miranda, and excelsior, are seen in nearly every guest ship appearance in 24th century trek. and what isn't?

3. the connie refit is NOWHERE to be seen during this period. well gee i wonder why that is?

a main character didn't comment off hand the reason for any of this, its up to us to fill in the blanks and make this add up in a way that fits within those canon facts. to draw conclusions that bring these facts and others together objectivly. thats what i did.

why doesn't the miranda have a deflector? well it must not have needed one, or it wouldn't have made it out of the solar system. it must get by with gravametric generators that perform a similar function as a full sized deflector, or something. trek ships cannot function without a deflector/s protection, something has to be doing the job in its absence.

with the excelsior taking over the connies roll, what do you do with the existing connies? well theres already the miranda which seems purpose built for the less glamorous jobs, has only 7% less volume, and is at the same basic tech and defensive level as a connie. the miranda lacks the huge long term supply storage and a large deflector that takes up at least half the volume of the secondary hull, if not more. its almost like the miranda actually has more usable interior volume then the connie. it does.

well if the miranda doesn't need that stuff to do its job, and starfleet wouldn't have launched the ship if it couldn't do its job as is, then why use connie that are much less optimized to do those same jobs? whats the point of supporting a dead end like the connie after its too small and too antiquated to do long term exploring? the miranda is literally what the connie would look like if it was meant to be a close to home ship. its not as suited to be a close to home ship, it would be inferior to the miranda in that purpose.

when was the connie plug more or less pulled? gradually retired? i figure the 2320s at the latest. it could have been the 2350s, but it was certainly before tng took place. there is only a single ship that could have been a connie that at least had enough antimatter to show up at wolf 359 to be slaughtered. a fully commissioned ship with 100 years of service ahead of it? orbital museum? training ship? an inactive hull sitting in a bone yard that only needed a bit of deuterium and antimatter to get running on short notice? a ship debris asset they had on hand from ST3? the last one is for sure correct, the 3 before that are likly, and the first is something a fan boy would cling too.

that line of reasoning fits nicely within those 3 canon facts. everything you wrote was a connie wank, and is in conflict with those canon facts. canon and starfleet disagree with you. it doesn't mater if its your favorite, don't bother arguing this stuff if your not going to be objective, im not going to waste anymore of my time.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,324
# 53
08-15-2012, 11:27 AM
Is it just me or does the Oberth and NX both lack a Deflector dish too?
I was once DKnight1000, apparently I had taken my own name so now I'm DKnight0001.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 625
# 54
08-15-2012, 11:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dknight0001 View Post
Is it just me or does the Oberth and NX both lack a Deflector dish too?
The Oberth's is in the front of the secondary hull, it is just behind a radome according to some schematics. The NX's is in the front of the Saucer.
My Romulan Liberated Borg character made it to Level 30 and beat the (old) Defense of New Romulus with the skill point bug.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 53
# 55
08-15-2012, 05:53 PM
I think the main reason the Constitution didn't last as long as the Miranda is simple. The Constitution was a lot more expensive to build, was harder to upgrade and refit, and needed double the crew to operate as a Miranda.

No doubt it was a better ship, but for second line work you don't want quality, you want ecconomy. I have no doubt they kept using the Constitutions while they lasted, but once they wore out it was probably not felt worth refitting them again.
While a connie was a better ship than a Miranda, it could only be in one place at any given time. For the same outlay of resources and personnel you could run two Mirandas, and they could cover twice as much space in the same time. If you're just patrolling collonies and ferrying research teams around, not on the frontier fighting unknown aliens and charting strange anomalies, 2 Mirandas would be a much more efficient use of men and resources than a single aging Constitution class.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 267
Actual Stahl Quote:....

"We are constantly trying to address fan feedback and edit costumes and ships in our game constantly. The original Galaxy Class ship alone has been edited for feedback over 25 times, each time adding more detail. So while we appreciate purists, we have to balance what is entirely accurate with what is good enough for the game".


This must have been the commentary behind such statements.........


Stahl: Let's get the Ambassador Class made but, keep it in our back pockets, for....forever "if" I feel like it.

Gecko: What are you suggesting??? There's lots of players who want this ship in-game. I've stated on the forums that I'm trying to get the Ambassador into the game for them.

Stahl: Why did you do that??? Argh! Ok, well, what's done is done. Perhaps the players will just forget about the Ambassador Class?

Gecko: Doubtful. There's a rather large amount who have been waiting for over two years to get it.

Stahl: Hmmm...I see. So, what do you propose, Gecko?

Gecko: We could introduce Ambassador Class in Season 7, along with some cool plot with the Romulans. Players would really appreciate that.

Stahl:
I will tell the players in Season 7 to expect the Ambassador Class. [In a low whisper, while leaning closer to Gecko]...Actually I'll tell the players Season 7 but mumble 77 under my breath. We will then make them wait till Season 77 for Ambassador Class MUHAHAHAHA!!!

Gecko: With all due respect, I don't think that's fair to the players.

Stahl: Ahh yes, make them WAIT til' Season 77 for the release of the Ambassador Class. We'll continue dangle the carrot in front of the players. I have declared this conversation is over!


Just my 2 cents how this might have played out.

Last edited by paragon92518; 08-15-2012 at 08:33 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 964
# 57
08-16-2012, 12:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
i really see no point in trying to argue with you any further. the only conclusion your capable of coming to is the connie is simply too good to ever do away with. no amount of evidence to the contrary is going to change your mind.
First off, you have provided zero evidence that the miranda class is superior in any way other than cost.

The truth of the situation is that we only see a small portion of star fleet, even in the dominion war and borg attacks. If you want to make gigantic leaps of faith in the choices a fictional operation makes be my guest. Just please don't try to push it on others in an attempt to squash their hopes and desires.

You constantly bring up how the connie refit was legitimately replaced by the excelsior class, and had all other potential roles more efficiently usurped by the miranda class. But there is nothing in the canon supporting this other than the small glimpse we get of the fleets (and limited budgets). More importantly, the class equations don't stack up for the whole fleet. Connie refits were practically new ships, based heavily on the shape of an older one. Its safe to say many of these parts were used in the reliant class, size and shape limitations excluded. When the excelsior class wiped out the connies, shouldn't the centaur class or soyuz wipe out the miranda's?

If the volume difference between miranda and connie is so small, then it really could not have been that much harder to make the better ship, or loose it with a smaller compliment of staff when shortages in recruitment struck.

There are easily conceivable alternatives to the situation you are trying to convey, but the most important flaw in your argument is the stagnation of the miranda class. Do you really think Starfleet could get away with putting a couple hundred people on a ship and telling them all that their dreams of galactic exploration have now been put on an indiscriminate hold? Maybe if they orate their console read outs loud and fast they might get a transfer.

When your silly notion of a skewed system gets exposed, the entire reason for permanently scrapping connie production falls apart. You brought up the connie at wolf 359 and im glad, because at the very least it means connies can be brought back into service during times of war. So during the dominion war, where starfleet lost countless ships, they will be brought back into service with all due fervor. If any survived through the war, they would probably have to stay in service too considering all the losses.

You said that everything I wrote was connie wank, but let me restate some things with episode and movie titles that prove the point.

1. Deflectors add unique tactical options. (TNG: The Best of both worlds part ll)

2. Deflectors add unique scientific options.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Deflector_beam

3. Warp nacelles are highly explosive, making the connie refit design safer.
(TNG: Cause and Effect)

3. The connie was a superior combat ship, whose phasers did far more damage than the reliants could. (STWOK) The best example is seen when the enterprise destroys an entire portion of a warp nacelle with one phaser shot, when the reliant scores three collective hits on the kirks nacelles and destroys neither.

4. If the miranda class was a better configuration for exploration or distance work, later enterprise flagships would feature a similar configuration.

So for just a little more 'money' the federation could make a clearly superior ship in almost as many numbers, while still rolling out a few mirandas to boot. This goes in line with traditions established throughout all the shows, that every ship can do a little bit here and there as long as its from the tmp era or later.

But you can have fun with your authorial militarized version of star fleet if you want. I definitely have fun with my open version.

*Edit, so I just read that the soyuz class was discontinued, making it the only tmp era ship that was officially discontinued. Its important to note that the producers did not want it to be from that era though, and its gigantic sensor module suggests the reliant class was seriously lacking in that department.

Last edited by cidstorm; 08-16-2012 at 03:11 AM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 53
# 58
08-16-2012, 09:10 AM
Just to go off on a tangent here, How about if as well as an Ambassador, we get a Niagara class as an alt skin?
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/sc...cs/niagara.jpg

Think that ship is one of the few 3 nacelle ships that look balanced to me.

Last edited by keppabar42; 08-16-2012 at 04:41 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,429
# 59
08-16-2012, 10:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
First off, you have provided zero evidence that the miranda class is superior in any way other than cost.
implying there is actual evidence to provide. there isn't. no one in canon mentioned anything about this. an explanation around points of canon is the best we can do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
1. Deflectors add unique tactical options. (TNG: The Best of both worlds part ll)

2. Deflectors add unique scientific options.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Deflector_beam
tell it to starfleet, its not my fault they dont have one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
3. Warp nacelles are highly explosive, making the connie refit design safer.
(TNG: Cause and Effect)
even when the reliant's nacelle exploded, the underside of the ship didn't have any viable hull breach from it, just looked kinda scorched. nacelle detonation on a connie would more likely damage its impulse engine if it damages anything.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
3. The connie was a superior combat ship, whose phasers did far more damage than the reliants could. (STWOK) The best example is seen when the enterprise destroys an entire portion of a warp nacelle with one phaser shot, when the reliant scores three collective hits on the kirks nacelles and destroys neither.
3 twice huh? that had more to do with shot placement, and every time the connie fired 2 beams were basically hitting the same place. the miranda has fore AND aft torp launchers, the same number of saucer banks, and larger emitters in the corner of its role bars. the connie is out gunned, it was kahn's inexperience let kirk get the better of him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
4. If the miranda class was a better configuration for exploration or distance work, later enterprise flagships would feature a similar configuration.
this has never been implied by me. there is every indication that its a close to home design

Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
*Edit, so I just read that the soyuz class was discontinued, making it the only tmp era ship that was officially discontinued. Its important to note that the producers did not want it to be from that era though, and its gigantic sensor module suggests the reliant class was seriously lacking in that department.
it has the same sensor package as the connie, they are a visible exterior feature they likely canned the soyuz because those enhanced sensor's became obsolete equipment because of some packaging or tech break through, those arrays were its key design feature. or its was done away with because the cold war with the klingons was coming to an end, so a dedicated sensor/espionage boat wasn't needed.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 60
08-16-2012, 10:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by keppabar42 View Post
Just to go off on a tangent here, How about if as well as an Ambassador, we get e Niagara class as an alt skin?
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/sc...cs/niagara.jpg

Think that ship is one of the few 3 nacelle ships that look balanced to me.
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