Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,972
# 1 Fleet Starbase Feedback
08-08-2012, 05:51 PM
These are the issues with the Fleet Starbase System as I see it. All numbers are from STOwiki.

Exponential Cost Issue
As you rise in tiers it requires exponentially more resources and time to advance. It is one thing for it to have a linear increase as in the cost doubles for each tier, but what we currently have is a bit much. Not only does a fleet need to run more projects but they also have a higher cost. To illustrate I will use the fleet marks and doff requirements on the 1k exp missions. To go from a tier 0 military to tier 1 takes 10 runs of 'Practice Tactical Exercises' will consume 1,800 marks and 240 doffs. Then to get tier 2 it will take 15 runs of 'Practice Tactical Exercises I' consuming 4,500 marks and 900 doffs. Tier 3 will take 25 runs of 'Practice Tactical Exercises II' consuming 15,000 marks and 3,000 doffs. That is far too extreme of a cost scaling and makes it impractical for many to continue to pursue. It will also lead to fleets simply not trying to continue if they see the cost as too high for the next tier. You could take over 8 fleets to tier 1 with the marks it takes just to go from tier 2 to 3. And over 12 with doffs. The cost to hit tier 4 or 5 is likely even higher. An easier way to look at it is if it takes your fleet a month to hit tier 1 it will likely take over a year to get just tier 3. Tier 4 and 5 are likely out of your reach.

Time-Gating Issue
Starbase advancement is time gated by it's very nature with the duration of the projects. It becomes redundant for several of the most required resources to also be time-gated. While there are projects that do not require dil they all require large amounts of doffs. It is kinda silly when going from tier 2 to 3 will consume more energy credits worth of doffs (300 mil assuming 100k per) than the most lockbox ships.

Reward Control Issue
It is a good thing that one can keep their Fleet Credits earned by contributing to projects. But there is a second currency, the provisions, which have potential problems. At the moment all the power is in the hands of the fleet commanders. They choose what provisions will be created and who is allowed to use them. This can lead to drama.

Fleet Scaling Issue
Simply put there is no scaling with regards to cost, only with provisions. But any halfway decent large fleet would simply have a handful of 'provisioning hours' during prime-time play and run the 30 minute provision missions during those times.

Immersion Issue
While the doff system is very similar it at-least has more flavor and personality in my eyes. The fleet project system is simply a resource slider dump grind with a skin. Put in the junk and raise the number. Meanwhile the doff system has many interesting mission chains and the rewards are varied. Even though the end result is mostly the same (raising an exp bar) the doff system manages to pull you in while you do it.

Lack of Faith Issue
Many say that the fleet system should take time. Not to worry if it takes years to max out on. I mean after all this is intended to be the 'end-game' so we should take our time and smell the roses. But I don't have faith that Cryptic will not just abandon the fleet starbase system in a season or two when they bring out a new shiny. Their are so many systems and grinds that have already been mostly abandoned in the past for me. When was the last time crafting got an update? Or the STF store? Fleet Actions? And where are the rewards for the various doff tiers that were talked about before? Thats right we can convert doff exp into fleet marks soon. So when the colony system is released in season 10 and all the shiny new gear is there and are starbases are pointless we will be able to roll extra exp over? I know that sounds very cynical but the track record speaks for itself.

Future Issues
In a year when someone joins the game will one of the main factors in their fleet choice be their starbase level? Will any new fleets be created? Will anyone want to do that grind if someone else already has? How long does one think it will take until fleets are 'selling' provisions to outsiders? While the drain on resource stockpiles at the moment is helping the economy how long will it last? Once the fleets get the starbase to the level they desire the drain disappears for the most part.

Proposed Solution(s)
If I could remake the system I would change the costs and the provision methods. I would not increase the cost of the higher tier projects as you already have to run them more times. Instead their would simply be more project options that would consume alternate resources. Perhaps one would cost very few fleet marks but a handful of borg salvage. In addition I would change the special project slot to a personal project slot. That is where a player would choose their own project to create the provisions they would personally use. They would not give starbase exp but simply provisions. Or just generate fleet credits for them. Finally the operational assets. They would not be provisioned but instead would have an upkeep cost to keep active based on fleet size. Instead of their current functionality they instead would provide fleet wide passive buffs at all times. They could be to fleet credit gains, damage, experience, anything really.

Summery /TLDR
Cost increase from tier to tier is far to high.
Doff costs are also too high.
Provision system is flawed.
Long term will harm game and community.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,354
# 2
08-08-2012, 08:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
These are the issues with the Fleet Starbase System as I see it. All numbers are from STOwiki.

Exponential Cost Issue
As you rise in tiers it requires exponentially more resources and time to advance. It is one thing for it to have a linear increase as in the cost doubles for each tier, but what we currently have is a bit much. Not only does a fleet need to run more projects but they also have a higher cost. To illustrate I will use the fleet marks and doff requirements on the 1k exp missions. To go from a tier 0 military to tier 1 takes 10 runs of 'Practice Tactical Exercises' will consume 1,800 marks and 240 doffs. Then to get tier 2 it will take 15 runs of 'Practice Tactical Exercises I' consuming 4,500 marks and 900 doffs. Tier 3 will take 25 runs of 'Practice Tactical Exercises II' consuming 15,000 marks and 3,000 doffs. That is far too extreme of a cost scaling and makes it impractical for many to continue to pursue. It will also lead to fleets simply not trying to continue if they see the cost as too high for the next tier. You could take over 8 fleets to tier 1 with the marks it takes just to go from tier 2 to 3. And over 12 with doffs. The cost to hit tier 4 or 5 is likely even higher. An easier way to look at it is if it takes your fleet a month to hit tier 1 it will likely take over a year to get just tier 3. Tier 4 and 5 are likely out of your reach.
Honestly, of everything you said, I agree on this part the absolute most.

I mean, my fleet is now getting to dealing with working towards tier 3, which is all fine and well of course. But, with an exponential increase in numbers, it's looking like this big hill is going to be one giant mountain.

I'd like to either see:

A. A greater return, aka, more exp, preferably at least 50% more per mission.

Or.

B. Keep all the missions the same amount, without making the costs rise.

Either way, DON'T increase the time it takes to finish them.

I am slowly starting to believe that the 7 months thing was a bunch of phooey. Only the mega-fleets would be able to handle such a massive increase in numbers needed.

Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,247
Quote:
I mean after all this is intended to be the 'end-game' so we should take our time and smell the roses.
Who ever said that Fleetbases were End Game, can you post the link for the Dev post on that... for that matter please show me 1 post where a Dev refers to anything being released as "End Game".

They don't exist, this is not end game... this is game. The Dev's continue to expand upon it, there are released plans and interviews on the Fleet Bases post S6 which could include other areas such as outposts and colonies.

Quote:
Reward Control Issue
It is a good thing that one can keep their Fleet Credits earned by contributing to projects. But there is a second currency, the provisions, which have potential problems. At the moment all the power is in the hands of the fleet commanders. They choose what provisions will be created and who is allowed to use them. This can lead to drama.
Yes, they can be problematic... if you are in the wrong fleet... which you should be able to tell already. Unfortunately, i don't believe this can be fixed with programming.

Edit: It is going to be human nature to get upset if you have been contributing to the general construction, and when you go to buy something it not being there will cause some bruised emotions. The drama is going to be there regardless. You should already be seeing if your fleet is gelling as a team, and if there are potential problems lurking. Alot has been said about fleet leaders, as one... can I say that I have no intention of trying to gate any provision... we make decisions on projects as a team (entire fleet can have input).

I do expect some problems with the Engineering provisions when T2 weapons come out (simply put 5 provisions wont outfit 1 ship), even though i have a nice stockpile of provisions now... it will drain rapidly if a bunch of players decide to outfit their ships. So I expect to be running multiple provisioning projects as they are needed and wanted by the members.

The fact is though, if a member has sufficient fleet credit (meaning they have contributed to active projects, thereby making it possible for the fleet base to advance) who am I to say what they can or can not buy with their credits?

Quote:
How long does one think it will take until fleets are 'selling' provisions to outsiders?
Already planning it... just trying to figure a fair exchange.Key word is fair... I am not looking to rip anyone off... but I have things they need, and they have things I need... whats wrong with that? To me its a win-win scenario... they get what they want, I get needed supplies to continue to advance the fleet base.

Example, right now I have an over abundance of ship provisions... and a T2 shipyard... what is wrong with offering to let someone temporarily join my fleet, purchase a ship, then leave for a fair fee? They of course are welcome to join, and help advance the base and get access to the stores (by the way, takes ~ 1 week.. just want to discourage raiders) at no additional cost other than teamwork (i.e. I am not charging an entrance fee to people wanting to join and stay... only those wanting to do some shopping and leave).

Edit: Last point... currently I am at the top of my leader board. I have exhausted a large amount of savings and personal supplies (Dil, Experience, Doffs) to keep the projects flowing smoothly... I do not expect that I should get the largest share of the provisions... I am contributing to a team based effort, for the good of the team... if the view is "whats in it for me" thats the wrong attitude in any team environment.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....

Last edited by johnny111971; 08-08-2012 at 09:44 PM.
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