Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,425
# 1 Cryptic loves PvP too much?
08-10-2012, 11:35 AM
Okay. I have your attention, presumably.

Now, I want to highlight what I see as a fundamental design issue with the game.

By NO means does Cryptic SUPPORT PvP too much. That's obvious to me, even as someone who is not a stellar PvPer -- nor am I offended that I'm not. There is a difference between love in design and support in practice and I'd argue that the love in design is what has killed the support in practice.

However, it's all part of an ecosystem of choices.

Cryptic -- and likewise ANY MMO developer to date -- does not have AI on par with a human player. This is a fundamental truth regarding how MMOs are designed. Both the networking infrastructure and to some extent the AI are simply not there to support AI that is as smart as a player. In large measure, this results in NPC challenge being the product of situational technique (ie. holding players to a gimmick) and cheese (NPCs who can dish out one shot kills).

The reliance on the latter is part of why we have such a small variety of endgame enemies. If you want cheese encounters, you have to give NPC groups gimmicks. The Borg and Undine fit this. I'm sure this pattern suits itself well to other enemy groups and would play out well with an army of Gary Mitchells or Kevin Uxbridges or Qs.

But it all underscores an issue: PvP and PvE have the same core mechanics in STO. The same builds work. A GOOD PvP build may not be THE MOST optimal for PvE but is doggone close.

PvP enemies, however, are smarter. They hit harder. They know what you are doing better than you do.

In short, the most elite form of gameplay in STO is PvP. It is simply similar to PvE but harder.

In short, the devs made PvP as PvE Hard Mode.

Hard Mode in an MMO attracts dramatically fewer players. If you look at a big competitor like WoW, their "Hard Mode" is raiding and attracted only about 5% of players when it was designed as such. (And they changed this design because it made raids too unpopular to support without drawing more people in.) I think they managed to avoid making PvP their hard mode, in turn, by making it mechanically different from PvE, by requiring different planning and stats and a fundamentally different gameplay style. (In turn, having a "Hard Mode" with lack of good rewards or support in STO creates other issues.)

Because of the difference between real players and AI, PvE and PvP can never be equal unless they are separate -- mechanically, statistically, and in many other respects. They need to require different things. They need to value different things.

Without this, PvP is "PvE Hard Mode." A good PvPer is an elite PvEer, functionally. And that is NOT ideal. "Hard Mode" is too unpopular to receive support because it attracts too few people. This forces NPC cheese in PvE and it ghettoizes PvP, which is what will happen to any sufficiently challenging PvE hardmode.

The problem is in making PvP the Elite form of PvE. The solution is making the two gameplay modes call for different builds, stats, tactics, different balances of build planning versus talent with twitch reflex. It requires making PvP tactics and builds fail in PvE and making PvP DIFFERENT from simply being PvE with smarter opponents.

And there's my soapbox on that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 244
# 2
08-10-2012, 03:04 PM
Skimmed your Post, Ai can be made better you know why game designers don't do mobs that beat you?

Other then that what was the point?
PVP will always be the best at offering challenge to other players.
Noone.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,203
# 3
08-10-2012, 03:12 PM
After re-reading this months Q and A to DS I can admit to feeling a bit hopeful. The explanation about why so little has been done to PvP until recently fits, devs are starting to come in the forums and talk to us. They're trying it seems, so I'll cut em some slack for the time being.

...Besides, after a bit of math I've discovered that I can buy that fleetship I've been eyeballin, with the consoles I want, in about 9 more months.

PvP better be ready by then OR ELSE !
KBF Lord MalaK
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 102
# 4
08-10-2012, 03:17 PM
Wall of LOL!

I stopped doing PVE because it was too easy, and went onto harder things (PVP)

Aytanhi of TSI, TSI fleet founder and leader OrganizedPVP channel Admin
Feel free to ask me about PVP or starship strategies. "No, I am not Borg!"
/channel_join OrganizedPVP If you are interested in learning PVP, looking for a team, or a private match
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,522
# 5
08-10-2012, 05:00 PM
i got 'ruined' by pvp pretty early. pve is a trivial exercise by comparison. its because npcs are nothing like player ships, they rely on bloated hitpoint and bloated damage modifiers were player ships get 90% of their survival and 90% of their damage from buffs.

ive been calling for npc's to get an overhawl for years, they finally got a little something. for season 6 they got a bunch of ptw console powers, thats a good start for making them somewhat dangerous, but they are stilll nothing like player ships. it was basicly just advertising for these consoles imo

the nevt step, say in advanced difficulty or something, is to give all the abilities npcs have 9 skill points, so they cool down the same rate as they do for us. also each ship should have its own specialty energy level setup, not just 50/50/50/50. also, the balance all shield button should be pushed for it every 7 seconds

on elite, npcs should have 2 of every power they already have, custom power presets, shields balanced every 5 seconds, and a fully filled out skill tree, all custom made for each npc type. even with dumb ai, this would still be quite dangerous.

not only would pve be fun, it would train players how to play correctly, and prepare them for what they will face when they try pvp.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 566
# 6
08-10-2012, 06:27 PM
I think op wanted to state that pvp in sto needs a revamp. Lol. Joke aside, pretty much this is what i think he states. I went yesterday into arena as a pug klink. First game was butchering Feds for 5 min. I think it was 15-0. It sucked. Second match was vs a premade from 2 fleets, so butchering klings for maybe 7-10 min. It also sucked. Stuns, disables, slows, etc. What cryptic should implement in pvp (maybe season 26 if we're lucky) is new pvp style and teaming options. Who wants premade vs premade, one queue. Who wants pugs only, another queue. Who wants whatever variant of c&h, capture the flag, king of hill, etc, another option. Not anything new, we were talking about things like that since forever, but I believe that the lack of pvp ballance (you can be the mother of all pilots, if you have an average team, you'll get butt hurt by a premade like tsi/pandas with 15-0, maybe 15-1 or 2 if a good pug) from the point of queuing and matching. Lots o players and hate from pve-ers on this forum comes from this type of 15-0 fights they get into. I mean how can you like pvp as a new player after such experiences? Only who really, really is into pvp will try to improve, all others will run away.

And finally, to the op: cryptic is agains having different pvp gear and equipment, it will not happen, at least not anytime soon (soon in cryptic pvp terms is 1-2 years). I get their rationale about this, but I don't get the logic in pulling the plug from pvp and totally abandoning it. There is huge potential that they apparently can't see...
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 102
# 7
08-10-2012, 06:31 PM
In regards to gamers in general.

I find there are 2 types of gamers out there.

The gamer that hits a wall in their level of skill, when they encounter something too difficult for themselves they either whine and blames others for hacking and then retreats to the areas they are familiar at and good at. Or they end up griefing the other players that are better by not decloaking, afking in a fight, and or removing their shields.

And then there is the gamer that hits a wall, learns how to climb over it in order to improve. Acecpts their flaws and works out how to correct them, actively pays attention to the game, learn from their mistakes, learn from other players, learn from their success, and seeks to improve themselves constantly.

Players that are categorized as unable to climb over a wall are generally those that QQ about balance and consider themselves the best while they don't necessarily express it through external means, though inside their heads they think there is nothing wrong with what they are doing and they see no reason to improve. (A.K.A.) Casual players

Generally the gamer type that does learn doesn't complain at all, they learn what is strongest, adapt to use it and then dominate the rest of the players in all manners possible and this lasts for a while. However, after a while it does get boring, and the players that have been around for such a long time seek to make the game more interesting by requesting the skills they are using to be balanced with others so that there is a new frontier to explore.

These categories hold true to all video games, which is why there is such a huge difference in skill level between PVP players and PVE players in regards to their combat abilities.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...Aytanhi339.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...Claws192-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...taClaws181.jpg

etc.

Aytanhi of TSI, TSI fleet founder and leader OrganizedPVP channel Admin
Feel free to ask me about PVP or starship strategies. "No, I am not Borg!"
/channel_join OrganizedPVP If you are interested in learning PVP, looking for a team, or a private match
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,522
# 8
08-10-2012, 08:42 PM
thats all very easy to say from behind the wheel of a bug ship. but really, that is all true. that doesn't mean there arent several things in game that are indefensibly op that we have every right to call fowl on, wile also never assuming we have it all figured out.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 102
# 9
08-10-2012, 11:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
thats all very easy to say from behind the wheel of a bug ship. but really, that is all true. that doesn't mean there arent several things in game that are indefensibly op that we have every right to call fowl on, wile also never assuming we have it all figured out.
The bug ship statement would only work if I wasn't doing that well in PVP until I got in a bug ship.

So here's a screenshot of PVP from the first month STO was out in my fleet escort.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...ne/Aytanhi.jpg

You don't have to assume if you truly understand the mechanics of the game, and the way it stands there are many jarring abilities that are absurdly OP and it would be suicide in PVP to do without.

Aytanhi of TSI, TSI fleet founder and leader OrganizedPVP channel Admin
Feel free to ask me about PVP or starship strategies. "No, I am not Borg!"
/channel_join OrganizedPVP If you are interested in learning PVP, looking for a team, or a private match
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,522
# 10
08-11-2012, 01:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aytanhi View Post
The bug ship statement would only work if I wasn't doing that well in PVP until I got in a bug ship.

So here's a screenshot of PVP from the first month STO was out in my fleet escort.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...ne/Aytanhi.jpg

You don't have to assume if you truly understand the mechanics of the game, and the way it stands there are many jarring abilities that are absurdly OP and it would be suicide in PVP to do without.
i was basically agreeing with you, i just took issue with you saying the ONLY people complaining about OP things are those that need to L2P but wont, wile you use something that legitimately is OP. i do truly understand the mechanics of the game and how everything fits together. but im confident i don't know every single thing there is too know. im one that acknowledges that and continues to learn. but i will also call things that are op, op.

i can post ima badass screenshots too! these were both done in just a fleet ktinga with 8 beam arrays
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/...1FA4E68DBC449/
me- tommy. the top damage dealer on the other team was a bug

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/57...6D07A9C30F04D/
wile it was a hilariously bad mismatch between a premade vs 3 person pug, i think its remarkable that i could deal the damage and get the heals i did
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
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