Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 424
# 1 PVP thought...
08-16-2012, 05:53 AM
It seems to me that in the current state of the game (ignoring how completely sad PVP is in STO) PVP and PVE are mutually exclusive. Every time something is changed to balance PVP it seems to horribly break PVE. In addition, every time something is changed to make PVE more balanced it breaks PVP.

I think it would be FANTASTIC if STO/PWE/Cryptic would do a little something that is done in, as Dan Stahl put it, "the 8-year incumbent with a global subscription player base", and have PVP equipment and PVE equipment separate. It just seems so "logical". Any serious PVPer in aforementioned game wouldn't be caught dead in a PVP match wearing PVE gear, and wearing PVP gear to do PVE is just a waste. If PWE/Cryptic are serious about getting PVP in STO then they may want to take a closer look at how a game that merges PVP and PVE so (relatively) seamlessly is so successful at it.

I'm not suggesting a copy of that system, STO needs to be different and stand out from other MMOs, but if something is proven so many times to work why ignore it so completely and attempt to reinvent the wheel from scratch?
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,079
# 2
08-16-2012, 06:22 AM
So two games instead of one?

No. Please not.
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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 424
# 3
08-16-2012, 07:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
So two games instead of one?

No. Please not.
Not two games. WoW (yes I said it) is not 2 games. There are just things that are utilized in PVP that are not in PVE (Resilience and Penetration for instance). I had a Set of equipment for PVE and one for PVP (they even had a single button that would switch all items in the set for you, which took all of 2 or 3 seconds).

Otherwise, since PVE "works" and PVP is non-existent, honestly, maybe it should stay that way, as the vast majority of players don't PVP (let the flaming begin) or you can stop complaining that PVE changes break PVP and just deal with it.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,203
# 4
08-16-2012, 08:09 AM
switchngc, your post appears to 'cut and paste' from the tribble thread, so I'll do the same:
Quote:
Umm, NO.
If PvE was as balanced as you think then PVP wouldn't be so unbalanced, as AI would simply be emulating a 'dumb' live player. The fundamental problem as I see it is the devs appear to be making gear and balancing the AI reaction to it, THEN when 2 live players use that gear all the weaknesses an OP'ness becomes blindingly visible. This approach is bass-ackwards, balancing should be done FIRST at the PVP level then balance the AI reaction (PvE) last.
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Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,079
# 5
08-16-2012, 08:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordmalak1 View Post
Umm, NO.
If PvE was as balanced as you think then PVP wouldn't be so unbalanced, as AI would simply be emulating a 'dumb' live player. The fundamental problem as I see it is the devs appear to be making gear and balancing the AI reaction to it, THEN when 2 live players use that gear all the weaknesses an OP'ness becomes blindingly visible. This approach is bass-ackwards, balancing should be done FIRST at the PVP level then balance the AI reaction (PvE) last. :
That is a bit how it looks like, sadly, yes.

Can we have better AI in the game, please?
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 668
# 6
08-16-2012, 08:45 AM
NO

Any MMO that goes the pvp gear route kills there own pvp.

Let me break it down for you WOW PvP sucks.

Assume you are a new player coming to STO 1 year after this change....

I and all my friends have spent a year worth of playing earning every piece of PvP gear we can and tweeking our builds around that gear.

Mr New player has nothing... how many games do you think that player gets involved in before they say... STO PVP sucks no thanks.

PvP gear = EVIL game Killing Junk. Designed lazy sub par devs. That may describe our sto devs for the most part... however staying away from the pvp gear grind is one of a handful of good decisions they have made.

As it is new players expect that gear grind... look at recent new player threads... people are convinced that gear makes a massive difference in this game which any long time player knows is simply not true. STO is one of the least gear dependent games in existence. The best teams I know of in game don't run around with full purple MK XII setups we all change stuff to often... almost all my stuff is mk XI.... frankly I have 11 toons and many of them have MK X stuff. The gear balancing in this game is fine... and one of the few STO wins over other MMOs.

Last edited by husanakx; 08-16-2012 at 08:48 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 424
# 7
08-16-2012, 09:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by husanakx View Post
Let me break it down for you WOW PvP sucks.
Oh, wow. I never thought of it that way. I just kinda figured that, as WoW has at least as many pure PVP servers as it does PVE servers, and Every server RP/PVE/PVP has large numbers of PVP maps and events that are always filled, and probably has far more PVPers than ALL of the Perfect World games combined, they might know a little something about PVP. But I guess all those people that play WoW just haven't heard your argument that WoW PVP sucks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by husanakx View Post
Assume you are a new player coming to STO 1 year after this change....
Assume you are a new player coming into STO now and can't seem to get past level 10 because Gorn Draguas Support Vessels drop Aceton Assimilators faster than you can blow them up, because a relative handful of players in the game (PVPers) could care less about how changes they insist on affect PVE (as most, not all, that I know of don't do any PVE at all). Or you get one shot by Borg and Klingon ships with their nice torpedoes, again because PVPers don't care about how what they want affects the majority of other people playing... But I digress...

Quote:
Originally Posted by husanakx View Post
I and all my friends have spent a year worth of playing earning every piece of PvP gear we can and tweeking our builds around that gear.

Mr New player has nothing... how many games do you think that player gets involved in before they say... STO PVP sucks no thanks.
Mr. New Player probably feels the same way Mr. New Player feels now, coming into PVP where they are utterly decimated by the veterans... What is your point? Strange though that you would put that comment of "STO PVP sucks no thanks." in there as that is pretty much all I hear from the vast majority of people who do PVP on STO, Strangely enough, far fewer percent in WoW seem to say that about WoW's PVP...

Quote:
Originally Posted by husanakx View Post
PvP gear = EVIL game Killing Junk.
Funny you should say that.... Since WOW is the MMO Powerhouse and one of the only ones that hasn't had to go F2P to make money... But I guess you are right, the PVP gear in WoW are what has caused it to have to go F2P and ultimately is what caused it to fail as miserably as it did.




You PVPers want a challenge, right? That is why you play against other players and not the AI, right? Then why don't you deal with the challenge of things "not being balanced for PVP"? I'd imaging that would be the ultimate challenge. Alternately, you could make PVP where everyone's ships are exactly the same and their weapons and abilities are identical, that way you truly know if you win because of your skill and not some Ability or GEAR you have that your opponent doesn't, as that is really the only way that you can be 100% sure some ability or weapon or whatnot isn't OP, to have everything identical (what a facinating game that would be)...
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 75
# 8
08-16-2012, 09:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by husanakx View Post
NO

Any MMO that goes the pvp gear route kills there own pvp.

Let me break it down for you WOW PvP sucks.

Assume you are a new player coming to STO 1 year after this change....

I and all my friends have spent a year worth of playing earning every piece of PvP gear we can and tweeking our builds around that gear.

Mr New player has nothing... how many games do you think that player gets involved in before they say... STO PVP sucks no thanks.

PvP gear = EVIL game Killing Junk. Designed lazy sub par devs. That may describe our sto devs for the most part... however staying away from the pvp gear grind is one of a handful of good decisions they have made.

As it is new players expect that gear grind... look at recent new player threads... people are convinced that gear makes a massive difference in this game which any long time player knows is simply not true. STO is one of the least gear dependent games in existence. The best teams I know of in game don't run around with full purple MK XII setups we all change stuff to often... almost all my stuff is mk XI.... frankly I have 11 toons and many of them have MK X stuff. The gear balancing in this game is fine... and one of the few STO wins over other MMOs.
Husanak is again where he so often finds himself. Completely right. Separate pvp gear is terrible in that it creates another artificial barrier for people to overcome in order to pvp. We need MORE pvpers, not more barriers to entry.

And for those who are new to pvp, let me reiterate this. Gear is WAY WAY WAY less important than team makeup, team play, and a good build. It's why most high end pvp players, myself included, would rather have a good player in a T4 ship than an idiot kirking it up in all ACCx3 purple MKII gear in a T5, box, or fleet ship. It's also why you sometimes see the best pvp fleets lolling it up in a T3 or T4 ship group and still winning.

The downside is that true gestalt minded team players are incredibly hard to find. Most people can't set their ego aside and do whats best for the group or trust others to do a job. This is why many fleets can't get past the mediocre stage of premades and get consistently stomped night after night. It's why a lot of P2W actually hurts groups, even if it marginally helps the individual (AMS). It's why things like zombie carriers and cruisers are so prolific even though they hamstring a team and hurt everyone around them.

Nixus@zyphoid_process
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 608
# 9
08-16-2012, 09:34 AM
In Diablo 2 there is a similar system, where various skills/game mechanics and items work differently in PvP. IE Resistances, Equipment, Skills, etc.

Heck some skills were completely disabled in PvP on Diablo 2 ;p

It is a very helpful system.

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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,619
# 10
08-16-2012, 09:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by switchngc View Post
Every time something is changed to balance PVP it seems to horribly break PVE. In addition, every time something is changed to make PVE more balanced it breaks PVP.]
citation needed. balance changes for pvp CANT make a damn bit of difference in pve. the only measurable difference it makes in pve is a slight change in the exact number of seconds it takes to burn an npc to the ground.
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