Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,041
# 1 Fleet tactical escort retrofit
08-16-2012, 07:12 AM
anno when the heavy escort carrier was released, I have read a question, that just stayed with me, and now would be a good start for this topic. it was something like that:
"does cryptic hate the defiant?"

with the HEC it was kind of obivous what it meant, but now with the fleet ships. notice anything unusal?
the shield bonus. both the fleet advanced and patrol escorts (the latter I have not checked ingame, but stowiki says so) have 0,99 shield multiplier.
what does the tactical escort have? 0,9.

why is one of the most loved escorts (it was a major ship in the shows, not like the others, so obviously many like it from there) get so little? ofc, we get a 5th tac console, while the others only get sci or eng slots.
should we be happy with that console. yes, ofc it is better to get a 5th tac. but that also means, we will get more aggro, which translates again into less survivability.

I hope this is only just a bug, or something, because if this is so, then I am (again) very dissapointed.
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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# 2
08-16-2012, 07:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferdzso0 View Post
anno when the heavy escort carrier was released, I have read a question, that just stayed with me, and now would be a good start for this topic. it was something like that:
"does cryptic hate the defiant?"

with the HEC it was kind of obivous what it meant, but now with the fleet ships. notice anything unusal?
the shield bonus. both the fleet advanced and patrol escorts (the latter I have not checked ingame, but stowiki says so) have 0,99 shield multiplier.
what does the tactical escort have? 0,9.

why is one of the most loved escorts (it was a major ship in the shows, not like the others, so obviously many like it from there) get so little? ofc, we get a 5th tac console, while the others only get sci or eng slots.
should we be happy with that console. yes, ofc it is better to get a 5th tac. but that also means, we will get more aggro, which translates again into less survivability.

I hope this is only just a bug, or something, because if this is so, then I am (again) very dissapointed.
I don't know enough about the numbers to see the significance of .09 shield multiplier, but think for a moment about the Defiant-R compared with the other T5 escorts. The Patrol and Advanced and HEC each get at least 3x the crew, and engineering and science-oriented Boff slots, versus the boff makeup on the Defiant. Whereas the Advanced escorts has science gimmickry and the Patrol has Engi survivability and the HEC has even more engi survivability plus pets, the Defiant, with its 5th Tac console, is even more the definition of "glass cannon".

In that kind of situation whatever you shoot at doesn't survive long enough for aggro to matter. Barring that, teams to help you are also cool.

I fly an HEC, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt, but when I bought a Defiant-R, that was definitely my impression.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
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# 3
08-16-2012, 07:50 AM
well, big bosses wont die fast enough, so you get the aggro no matter what, and comparing the defiant pruchase as a fleet ship... again, we lose one thing, others got for the same money.

and 0,09 is a difference. a significant difference at that, as every single hitpoint counts (and that 0,09 can translate into around a 1000 hitpoints with a strong shield).
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
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# 4
08-16-2012, 08:04 AM
There needs to be a careful balance in what is considered the trinity of MMOs. Tanks, Healers, DPS. DPS must be squishy and mostly easy to kill to offset their ability to deal damage. As you increase survivability or defenses in a class, the DPS slowly decreases.

It has to, or it becomes an Alpha class, which makes all others obsolete. I fly a Defiant as my primary ship, in STFs, PvP, etc. The best way to not get killed, is to kill the other guy first. If that's not possible, hide behind the tank until they have sufficient aggro. If you get aggro, burn a Dueterium tank and get out of the fire until the tank can reclaim the aggro.
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# 5
08-16-2012, 08:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by warpedcore View Post
There needs to be a careful balance in what is considered the trinity of MMOs. Tanks, Healers, DPS. DPS must be squishy and mostly easy to kill to offset their ability to deal damage. As you increase survivability or defenses in a class, the DPS slowly decreases.

It has to, or it becomes an Alpha class, which makes all others obsolete. I fly a Defiant as my primary ship, in STFs, PvP, etc. The best way to not get killed, is to kill the other guy first. If that's not possible, hide behind the tank until they have sufficient aggro. If you get aggro, burn a Dueterium tank and get out of the fire until the tank can reclaim the aggro.
You're also going off of the logic that there is even a tank in the group. Nine times out of ten, there is no "tank".

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# 6
08-16-2012, 08:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daiouvegeta2 View Post
You're also going off of the logic that there is even a tank in the group. Nine times out of ten, there is no "tank".
That doesn't change the facts presented above. If there is no tank in the group, that's not really something Cryptic can address. Most cruiser pilots don't roll as tanks, unfortunately. This is akin to a WoW Rogue complaining they are too squishy. You're supposed to be squishy.
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# 7
08-16-2012, 08:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by warpedcore View Post
There needs to be a careful balance in what is considered the trinity of MMOs. Tanks, Healers, DPS. DPS must be squishy and mostly easy to kill to offset their ability to deal damage. As you increase survivability or defenses in a class, the DPS slowly decreases.

It has to, or it becomes an Alpha class, which makes all others obsolete. I fly a Defiant as my primary ship, in STFs, PvP, etc. The best way to not get killed, is to kill the other guy first. If that's not possible, hide behind the tank until they have sufficient aggro. If you get aggro, burn a Dueterium tank and get out of the fire until the tank can reclaim the aggro.
I totally agree that there should be a balance. however.
first there are not many tanks in this game (especially not in pugs), that can get aggro instead of you, and in the end I can play hide and seek so long, that it would just worth it more, to get a cruiser

second, and the biggest problem. the other ships do not lack the dps. with the tac console the defiant-r can deal more dps out of the tubes, but the others? yeah, the patrol escort is meh.
but the heavy escort carrier (which sto wiki says also will come with 0,99 or around that shields) and MVAE? they all have their stuff, that can even out damage the defiant. get a nicely placed grav well with your MVAE, use your DHCs to blow one guy up, and watch all of them chain explode. with the tac escort, you must be lucky.
the heavy escort carrier is even more stronger (hence the question I started with, that cryptic might really just not like the defiant).

at this point, I see no reason, not to give the defiant at least 0,95 shields (even that would be a spit in the face, but at least we would get something for the SAME amount of money)
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# 8
08-16-2012, 09:00 AM
I use the Defiant retro not because it is my favorite ship (I never even watched DS9) but because what its fleet counterpart is. My philosophy sort is "You don't have to be a cruiser to survive... you can survive if the other guy is destroyed first." And I like the Defiant because of the raw DPS it delivers. A properly set up alpha strike can take out my target's shields and at least 25% of the hull, then I just eat through the hull. And yesterday someone gave me a subspace jump console, which will utilize the Defiant's DPS even more. And when I get the fleet defiant retro, the five tactical consoles will deliver even MOAR dps. As someone above said, survivability comes at the price of dps. And that has to be balanced. Take the three main escorts (defiant retro, patrol escort, HEC) and compare them. The last two are geared more to survive better whereas the Defiant is a big cannon with engines to fly it around.

EDIT: I forgot about the MVAE in the main escorts, it is more on the science side of things. So it can be used, it's just a different way it has to be used.
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# 9
08-16-2012, 09:10 AM
Everyone talk about shield that are identical in both version. Has no one notice you get 3k more hull, 33 000 instead of 30 000. I've checked that fact yesterday or maybe that doesn't count. I know I will get one for my tactical officer soon now and can't wait for it.

As for getting agro, I get agro so often and so much when I pug stf I'm just glad I will be able to destroy things faster. If you can't take the heat get something else.
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# 10
08-16-2012, 09:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by voporak View Post
And that has to be balanced. Take the three main escorts (defiant retro, patrol escort, HEC) and compare them. The last two are geared more to survive better whereas the Defiant is a big cannon with engines to fly it around.

EDIT: I forgot about the MVAE in the main escorts, it is more on the science side of things. So it can be used, it's just a different way it has to be used.
problem is, it is not balanced. yes, the defiant deals a bit more damage than the others, but if you use the others well, you can pretty much gain back on everything. so losing 0,09 shield strength is not enough justification

also, I checked holodeck description, and it states, that it comes with a stronger shield, so in the end hopefully this is just a bug.

and if you think about it the other ships get more sci power engi power AND PLUS the stronger shields and hitpoints, while the defiant only gets a bit more tac power, and a simple hull bump.

any ideas, where I can put a ticket for this? (either for the change in description, or the change in shield strenght). never filed a ticket before, but considering, that I want to buy the ship with loads of ppl, it worths my 5 mins
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