Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,388
# 21
08-17-2012, 06:53 PM
To the OP, I get the impression that a lot of that perception is because the PVP crowd seems a lot louder about it (by proportion) than the PVE crowd. Yeah there are PVE guys who bring it up, but so many of them are asking for absurd new powers or ships without giving any thought to how their idea would change the relative effectiveness of everyone else in the game, or guys screaming in all caps cause their crazy-quilt BOFF layout is totally ineffective. (I'm all for versatility, but there comes a point where you have to accept some things works better than others) Disregard those two kinds of silly threads and you've dropped 2/3 of the PVE 'balance' discussion. The PVPers on the other hand seem to have a larger number of much more heated but much more serious discussions, as well as bringing their opinions into so many other threads (such as this one). Enthusiasm and volume, and a smaller proportion of the discussions being so readily dismissable, sure makes it seem like they're the reigning balance majority, despite their numbers actually being much smaller.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,416
# 22
08-17-2012, 06:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
I'd go for more than a two value system. I'd go for a two ship system.

That way people start off in standard PvE ships but earn these PvP ships, which are innately better than even C-Store or Fleet ships for PvP because they're targeted at PvP stats. That reintroduces possibility of eSport.
Sorry, but I greatly disagree. PvP Ships, PvP specific gear, and PvP stats is the worst thing that can happen. (Just look how it ruined TOR's PvP and other MMOs that used similar PvP systems.)

Right now, the major factors that seperates people is experience and teamwork. You start throwing around ships or gear with PvP bonuses, or PvP stat bonuses, it will just increase the divide between the experienced and inexperienced. Thus making there fewer people to brave STO PvP.

Sure you want somekind of incentive, but not like this.


If you want more people to play STO PvP, you need to lower the bar to where medocre players can stand a chance and not get blown away within seconds.

For example, the revamped Ground PvP rather focused on this nicely. Where inexperienced players pretty much can challenge even the most experienced PvPers. But at the same time, experience can still plays a major factor. So in space, a system revamp has to be similar.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
Everyone's PvP rep is reset quarterly and new weapons and ships and cool stuff would also be added quarterly to the PvP ship store.
Don't think that would be a good idea. It's a good way to anger someone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
You get, say, 500 PvP CXP per match for a win, 50 for a lose. And players who have higher tiers (Ie. say I'm Tier 3 in PvP) award a bonus bounty of CXP every time you kill them. The better you are, the bigger the target on you.

If you max out the commendation category at 100k PvP CXP, you get to reap rewards like dilithium turn-ins or fleet marks or maybe even Lobi hand-ins or Fleet Base extras until the seasonal reset.

Then everybody starts at 0 PvP XP and the rivalry starts up again. The old gear is discounted. New gear is introduced. There's a perk for hitting the top tier each PvP season.
As I said above, widening the gap is a seriously bad idea. Again, look at TOR with the difference between their Level 50s with no PvP "Expertise" and those Level 50s with their "Expertise" in the Level 70s. It was essentially like those Level 50s were fighting people who were Level 100. In other words, impossible.

So if you had a similar system in STO, nobody is going to enjoy constantly losing for months until you gained enough CXP to take on the hardcores. STO's PvP designers need to essentially follow the K.I.S.S. principal.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 453
# 23
08-17-2012, 11:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reginamala78 View Post
To the OP, I get the impression that a lot of that perception is because the PVP crowd seems a lot louder about it (by proportion) than the PVE crowd. Yeah there are PVE guys who bring it up, but so many of them are asking for absurd new powers or ships without giving any thought to how their idea would change the relative effectiveness of everyone else in the game, or guys screaming in all caps cause their crazy-quilt BOFF layout is totally ineffective. (I'm all for versatility, but there comes a point where you have to accept some things works better than others) Disregard those two kinds of silly threads and you've dropped 2/3 of the PVE 'balance' discussion. The PVPers on the other hand seem to have a larger number of much more heated but much more serious discussions, as well as bringing their opinions into so many other threads (such as this one). Enthusiasm and volume, and a smaller proportion of the discussions being so readily dismissable, sure makes it seem like they're the reigning balance majority, despite their numbers actually being much smaller.
Yes! This is it exactly. I knew there was something I couldn't quite put my finger on that lead me to make this topic. I forgot that the people who are usually more vocal about balance are the PVPers. Thanks!
"My frozen dairy-based confectionery attracts all the males of the species to the facilities. They all agree on it's superiority. Indeed, it is superior to yours. I could teach you the finer details but that would require monetary recompense on your part."
-The Milkshake Song: Vulcan Edition
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,071
# 24
08-17-2012, 11:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piwright42 View Post
Dunno I main a pure PvP built tac/Garumba tourney, (as in no +1 consoles at all, though I do run a Red Matter Capasitor), set up right now right now and I've been face melting PvE. Considering how the game is built around DPS and heals it is not a surprise to me that a tac/escort has a high degree of mission flexibility.

Earlier today I PuGged a Starbase Defense. Two warped out right at the beginning one was an AKF hero that left a Bortasqu and myself. We were stubborn and managed to get to wave four before we lost the base. That Bortasqu was good. Kept the base healed at the expense of their self more than once.

Still I was thinking about setting up a slightly more PvE build with a swappable BO set up for one more CSV and no CRF...

Edited to get a touch more on topic:

I made a post in another thread that pointed out one of the reasons that under the current mechanics PvP is the best tool to judge balance by. It was in a thread about how the new Metreon Gas dispenser is underwhelming.

The reality is that to give a degree of challenge to PvE the NPC's hit points and damage has to be super charged as the AI that controls them does not chose or time buffs and heals all that well. So you get NPCs with ludicrous hit point values and very high damage output values.

In the case of the metreon gas trick the new console fails to look all that impressive in PvE because the NPC hull goes down just a tiny fraction. Yet when you see a Regent with full hull and a down shield facing drop to 30% hull due to that console when it gets stuck in it's own metreon fart it is very effective against ships like BoPs, Science vessels, and even escorts that are piloted by players. Very effective as in coup de gr?ce effective.
Whatever anyone thinks of my other opinions, I agree here.

I've said before, PvP is hardmode PvE. And that ghettoizes PvP because hardmode PvE is always unpopular. Good PvE relies on non-twitch based strategy... ie. puzzles. Good PvP relies on good twitch. Lumping the two together does neither any favors.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,273
# 25
08-17-2012, 11:45 PM
The way I figure it. . .in most PvE (on normal, at least), you can get by with a lot of sloppy mistakes in the build. You won't be spectacular, but you'll pull your weight. This is especially true outside of STFs.

PvP? You'll get slaughtered if you don't have a decent build that enables you do fulfill the specific task your ship is intended to do (and if you don't know what you're doing). Any changes made in the game affect PvP extensively, because players are smart. . .they will take any advantageous changes and use the heck out of them. That's why PvP is considered when they talk about 'balance'. It matters more in the PvP part of the game.

That's my interpretation of it, anyhow.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,427
# 26
08-18-2012, 12:54 AM
Not enjoying PvP is one thing but saying the game should be balanced around PvE is mind-boggling. You can complete almost all of STO's hardest endgame content in shuttles and Mirandas. The notion of "balance" has no real meaning here.

I mean, PvE and PvP are just two completely different games at this point... and it's a shame, and STO really suffers for it... I've been powerlevelling some alts lately and I've noticed with mild shock that some of the NPCs (Romulan I think?) actually heal themselves and use buffs, they turn to get a firing arc/hide weaker facings... why can't all of the PvE stuff be like this? You'd train players to think (as someone else put it) of the game as more of a puzzle than just the DPS snoozefest it is right now, there'd be more use for teamwork and you'd get a much higher quality PvP community as a result. People wouldn't be scared off by the qualitative skill gulf between the two worlds.

Last edited by shimmerless; 08-18-2012 at 01:01 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 471
# 27
08-18-2012, 02:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
Not enjoying PvP is one thing but saying the game should be balanced around PvE is mind-boggling. You can complete almost all of STO's hardest endgame content in shuttles and Mirandas. The notion of "balance" has no real meaning here.

I mean, PvE and PvP are just two completely different games at this point... and it's a shame, and STO really suffers for it... I've been powerlevelling some alts lately and I've noticed with mild shock that some of the NPCs (Romulan I think?) actually heal themselves and use buffs, they turn to get a firing arc/hide weaker facings... why can't all of the PvE stuff be like this? You'd train players to think (as someone else put it) of the game as more of a puzzle than just the DPS snoozefest it is right now, there'd be more use for teamwork and you'd get a much higher quality PvP community as a result. People wouldn't be scared off by the qualitative skill gulf between the two worlds.
Agreed and agreed.

As long as the AI is poor and the game mechanics for PvE and PvP are identical balance is more difficult to achieve.

Then again we have been asking for a smarter AI for a while now. Looks like we are starting to get it too. I saw an enemy Miranda flash an Engineering Team in a fleet event not too long ago. Actually saw it quite a bit.

I wonder what it would take to get the AI to turn away from damage received and turn into damage dealt? This way when you pound it it is more inclined to turn a fresh shield face yet when it's damage output exceeds yours in turns in to increase the chance of staying on your weakened shield face?

Probably easier just to get them to redistribute shields.
If you are a pickle in a pickle jar you know every pickle's different, sort of, but really they're all just pickles...
They taste the same.

Last edited by piwright42; 08-18-2012 at 02:17 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,595
# 28
08-18-2012, 02:59 AM
I agree. There is not much but PvP to balance against in STO.

In fact, I will always propose to make PvE and PvP even more alike: Better AI (depending on difficulty level), better NPC builds (the latter has happend lately, and I really like that, but there is still room for a lot of improvement).

This will have several beneficial effects:
  • It will allow the devs to test new stuff on the smarter AI's.
  • It will allow the devs to use the same hitpoint and damage values for NPC's as they would use on player ships and characters.
  • It makes the two ways of playing more alike, lowering entry levels for either of the two elements, coming from the other.
  • It is a lot cheaper to maintain one set of rules than two, freeing personnel for the design of new ships, new powers and consoles, new NPC's.
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Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 453
# 29
08-18-2012, 09:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piwright42 View Post
Agreed and agreed.

As long as the AI is poor and the game mechanics for PvE and PvP are identical balance is more difficult to achieve.

Then again we have been asking for a smarter AI for a while now. Looks like we are starting to get it too. I saw an enemy Miranda flash an Engineering Team in a fleet event not too long ago. Actually saw it quite a bit.

I wonder what it would take to get the AI to turn away from damage received and turn into damage dealt? This way when you pound it it is more inclined to turn a fresh shield face yet when it's damage output exceeds yours in turns in to increase the chance of staying on your weakened shield face?

Probably easier just to get them to redistribute shields.
Season 6 changed the AI to use level appropriate skills tbat players normally use. Engineering Team, Science Team, Gravity Well, Eject Warp Plasma, etc.
"My frozen dairy-based confectionery attracts all the males of the species to the facilities. They all agree on it's superiority. Indeed, it is superior to yours. I could teach you the finer details but that would require monetary recompense on your part."
-The Milkshake Song: Vulcan Edition
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 843
# 30
08-18-2012, 10:03 AM
What you do is balance the game around PvP, once that has a satisfactory state, then you create and balance your PvE content against that what the player ships can do. no need to have different items or sets or skills. Just do it right.
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