Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,163
# 101
05-16-2013, 01:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by istvaanshogaatsu View Post
I think I can settle this lengthy argument rather conclusively, if you fine gentlemen will permit!

I'm a torpedo specialist, and I mainly PVP, though my effectiveness in PVE is ridiculous too. I decided to spec into torps after every STO "pvp pro" I ran into laughed at them, and told me to run DHCs. I enjoy showing folks they're wrong :p

Tried transphasics. Tried quantums. Tried photons, chronitons, tricobalts and temporal disruption devices. Got the Omega and Romulan plasma torps. Built setups to put out the most damage possible with kinetic weapons. Got Adapted Maco. Got Rule 62 console, tachyokinetic converter, Romulan and Borg universals, 3 purple projectile doffs and 3 Romulan boffs for extra crit. 5x 30% tactical dmg consoles for each torp I tried.

I've settled on quantum torpedoes, combined with a pair of torpedo spreads as my primary offensive ability. In PVP, torpedo spreads with quantums do not miss. This is an incredibly powerful asset to have, as nowadays people stack defense rather heavily, and [acc]x3 weapons are usually the only way to counter that. Well, torp spreads with quantums are another counter. If I fire one of these at my target while it's in range... it doesn't matter if the target moves out of range, evades, or cloaks - they will hit. They are not subject to accuracy rules, which means you can equip quantums with extra crit, if that is your choice, and benefit from this crit heavily in PVP.

I score multi-kills in Kerrat. I've killed 3 klinks at a time on multiple occasions now, with a single back-to-back spread of quantums. Shooting for a quad-kill. Haven't seen a DHC setup capable of that yet.

http://i.imgur.com/LV5VFJf.jpg

I fire one of these a second. And I should update that screenshot - they're even deadlier now.
You make a good point to be sure and I am not going to argue against Quantums or even the idea of Spread as a very useful ability with them for the reasons you mention and in addition if your enemy loves their pets spam then Spread can punish them even more.

However... For beefy ships that can afford it slamming an enemy with a powerful BO just before a big Torp can destroy ships in a VERY fast one-two punch.

The only problem running a full out Torp boat as you are suggesting is that it works plentifully well and poorly tanked and slow to react players but if you go up against someone who has long since learned how to tank or who has a big hull and shield facing then your Torps will see a massive decrease in effectiveness whereas having a combination gives you a lot more options. With combined setups of DHC, DBB, and Torp I have easily been able to shred any given enemy and KILL them either any of the above.

But seriously... Anyone who knows how to keep their shields up well or, even worse, how to Hull Tank will not be falling to Torp Spreads alone.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 134
# 102
05-16-2013, 02:26 PM
Oh, I never said you shouldn't use energy weapons. They compliment torps quite well. I run a forward experimental romulan beam array and a plasma DHC for shield popping, along with 2x BO I and CRF I.

Those are my only energy weapons, however. Rest of my armament is 2x quantum weapons fore and aft, and the Rom plasma torp aft to unlock that lovely plasma burn set bonus.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,194
# 103
05-16-2013, 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by voporak View Post
Honestly I've never heard of a built designed to kill a target with the shields up. The only way is to take off your consoles boosting energy weapon power and replace them with torpedo consoles. But you should always have all the tactical consoles focused on your energy type.
I run a transphasic build as well.
And I am seeing more and more of them with slight variations.

My main motivation was

1. run something that resembles canon. (think back to the later TOS movies where torpedos were the dominant ship weapons and the games thransphasics look photon-y enough for me to count as canon torps not matter the label)
2. don't create a headache like multiple dual heavys do with their seizure inducing sound effects.
3. just because it's something different from what most people run.

It is not the most effective min-max build, but i does the job nicely. When I am in a team where someone is pounding the targets shields i put pressure on them with hull damage and when I get lucky I home in a cluster torp with a huge crit number which can outright kill a shielded target sometimes.

In a duel my entire strategy sometimes is just keep up he pressure and wait for that inevitable cluster crit.

I can afford to wait most of the time because I can max engine power and put the rest into shields and even aux to outtank them.

The only bad thing is that it really is easily defended against if you are prepared for it. But then if you run a specialized defense against a specialized offense it is the same rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock game for everyone.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,036
# 104
05-16-2013, 11:37 PM
The results for me in Transphasics has not been good, for most parts. I've run B'Rel Torpedo Boats extensively and have toyed with every torpedo type. I've done "pure" torp builds (i.e. pure Quantums, pure Transphasic, etc) and mixes, to namely include something like Quantum / Hargh'Peng / Bio-Neural / Breen Cluster combo up front.

To even get some semblence of damage through the shields, you must run a pure Transphasic Console build on top of the usual torpedo damage boost measures (KHG / Adapted MACO set, etc.). Even then, the pressure you apply on a player isn't that noticeable with what actually gets to the hull.

Regular Transphasic Torps or even Rapid Reload Transphasics.

But that game changes with the Breen Cluster. When people talk about ineffective Transphasic weaponry, there's usually an unofficial "*" annotating to not say anything negatively about the Breen Clusters.

There's several problems however with the Breen Clusters if you want to maximize them, but there are some workarounds.

1. LONG COOLDOWNS - At least 30 seconds of a cooldown. Very lengthy for such a powerful weapon. However, Projectile DOFFs that cut down cooldowns work. The key to CD reduction is that the time reduction is applied *every time a torpedo is fired* I've been toying with 2x regular torpedoes cyclying fire, unbuffed or not. The key is to keep shooting torpedoes as fast as possible, to cut down Breen Cluster cooldowns. This works into bringing them back into the fight quickly.

2. MINE DAMAGE BOOST, NOT TORPEDO - The cooldown for Breen Cluster can be reduced via the Projectile DOFFs. But boosting the damage of this weapon is not done by any sort of torpedo related set, console, or BOFF ability outside of APA/APO/APD/APB. Mine Damage Consoles boost the damage of Breen Clusters. Try this next time and swap out your TAC Consoles for Mine related ones. The boost in damage will be quickly noticed. So those fancy Transphasic Damage Consoles are useless for Clusters.

So, in my toying around, I want to max the living hell out of Breen Cluster Build
. I was never impressed by regular transphasics. The centerpoint to this build is the Breen Cluster. Everything else is secondary to this. Consider this very much a WIP.

- I've experimented with Variable Geometry Detonators at x5 for a 5 TAC Console Ship like the Bortasqu' Tactical and Fleet MVAE. Yes, I turned a slow as hell Bortasqu' into a massive torpedo boat... for PVE AND PVP

- Have at least 2 Projectile DOFFs to cut down torpedo CDs.

- Regular Torpedoes x2 up front if you're a fast turning Torp Boat. x2 in the rear with an aft Breen Cluster is also an option for slower "cruiser"-esque Torp Boats. The torpedos you choose though can be interesting. Photons are fast to begin with, even faster with DOFF CD reductions. Another option are Chronitons, especially for PVP in slowing down enemies. Quantums are also out there, but I have not tried them in a spam manner.

- Set Regular Torpedoes to Autofire.

- Space Sets - Between sets that benefit any sort of Projectile ability (KHG / Adapted MACO / Breen Space Set, etc), nothing directly benefits Breen Clusters at all. This gives the user more freedom for what they want to build this specific Torpedo Boat on, i.e. far more defense oriented Space Sets, or even a set that boosts Science abilities, etc. In other words, alot more freedom instead of choosing only projectile related space set combinations. Now, torpedo damage space sets (not consoles) WILL still boost the normal torps, even though they are not central to the build.

- BOFF abilities - For the Breen Cluster Build, HYT and TS are not critical to it. But please, do mount at least 1 TT for the damage boost. The reason is that Breen Clusters do not benefit from HYT & TS. The regular torpedoes you mount to spam and cut down the CDs with do, however. But the issue is that with maximizing Mine Damage Consoles, the damage boost to whatever normal torps you mount is greatly minimized. That's why to me, HYT and TS are not a big issue. Now, they *can* be useful if you want to maximize the *utility* of a torpedo's Proc. Namely Chronitons. HYT and TS to inflict Chroniton Procs is viable still, even if the damage is minimized for a lack of torpedo damage consoles.
** Depending on the type of Torp Boat you use and the amount of TAC BOFF abilities, this may varied greatly.
-- For a low TAC BOFF ship with Lieutenant as its max, TT1 and APB are suitable, namely with PVE. If doing this, onsider mounting at least 1 turret to land the APB debuff before firing off the Breen Clusters.

-- For a higher TAC BOFF ship such as an Escort, you have way more flexibility.
---- APO is still the end-all-be-all. APO2 or 3, it's outstanding gravy.
---- While APO is recharging, you can still have room for APB, or...
---- Having HYT / TS in the BOFF build for the normal torpedoes you mount. With this in mind, I would lean towards TS. This allows the ship to swat small trash NPCs / Hangar Units flying around, while saving the Breen Clusters for the real work. Works for both PVP and especially PVE.
---- Target Subsystem Abilities - You may have space in a high TAC BOFF ship for actually cramming these in somewhere. Target Subsystem Shields seem like an obvious choice, but in PVP, usually this gets boosted regularly (EPTS, Shield Battery, certain consoles). However, another consideration is Target Subsystem Engines. Successfully nuking Engines is great in an indirect way, because a slow moving ship or one at a standstill has much lower or no defense bonus due to that lack of speed. This can possibly work more than TSSshields, namely because not everyone has something like EPTE or Engine Batteries. Some do, but some won't, but those that won't are far more frequent than people that boost Shields readily. I mean, EVERYONE has EPTS somewhere, if at least 1 copy. If you want to utilize Target Subsystem, you MUST mount a beam array somewhere. Consider having then a beam forward, maybe aft also, and remove the turret. The nice thing is that the beam(s) can still land the APB debuff if you included it.
---- If you're bothering to mount an unhealthy amount of Mine Damage Consoles, mine abilities like Disperal Pattern Beta and Alpha can be quite nice if you include a mine somewhere.

General tactic - Very simple. You want your torpedo tubes facing the target as much as possible, spamming torpedoes. Autofiring makes this hands free. When you fire off your Breen Clusters, prebuff as usual. Ensure TT is running, apply APB is utilized, or prerrably go with APO. If you're a TAC captain, then you can apply APA on top of all this goodness. Once buffed, fire off the Breen Cluster. Now get back to spamming regular torpedoes. The Proj.DOFFs greatly help in cutting the CD down. If you go more than 2 of those DOFFs, it may considerably help even more.

Again, the central theme to the Breen Cluster Build is shortening the CD of the weapon and bringing them back into the fight much earlier. With all TAC Consoles dedicated to Mine Damage, the damage will be impressive when they hit and most esp. if they Crit.

It's very much a truly specialist build. This build it not dedicated to sustained damage. It's actually quite bad for steady output. This build however is decent for helping in spike damage. Most especially so in applying stress to another player by hitting the hull harder in the transphasic bypass mechanic. This applies even more in a team oriented fight.

Anyways, this was just something I've been toying with the last several days. Alot of things can change.

Edit to add: This kind of build and tactics will not suit a traditional B'Rel Torpedo Boat maximizing the Enhanced Battle Cloak. Reason is that the torpedo spam required in cutting the cooldown timers mean the B'Rel is out of cloak way more than usual. The build is best for sustained fighting, which the B'Rel is not designed to do. And spamming torpedo fire means the hull is greatly exposed since shields are down with EBC activated.

Last edited by warmaker001b; 05-16-2013 at 11:54 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 134
# 105
05-17-2013, 11:18 AM
N/m duh, mispost

Last edited by istvaanshogaatsu; 05-17-2013 at 11:21 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 892
# 106
05-17-2013, 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by istvaanshogaatsu View Post
I think I can settle this lengthy argument rather conclusively, if you fine gentlemen will permit!

I'm a torpedo specialist, and I mainly PVP, though my effectiveness in PVE is ridiculous too. I decided to spec into torps after every STO "pvp pro" I ran into laughed at them, and told me to run DHCs. I enjoy showing folks they're wrong :p

Tried transphasics. Tried quantums. Tried photons, chronitons, tricobalts and temporal disruption devices. Got the Omega and Romulan plasma torps. Built setups to put out the most damage possible with kinetic weapons. Got Adapted Maco. Got Rule 62 console, tachyokinetic converter, Romulan and Borg universals, 3 purple projectile doffs and 3 Romulan boffs for extra crit. 5x 30% tactical dmg consoles for each torp I tried.

I've settled on quantum torpedoes, combined with a pair of torpedo spreads as my primary offensive ability. In PVP, torpedo spreads with quantums do not miss. This is an incredibly powerful asset to have, as nowadays people stack defense rather heavily, and [acc]x3 weapons are usually the only way to counter that. Well, torp spreads with quantums are another counter. If I fire one of these at my target while it's in range... it doesn't matter if the target moves out of range, evades, or cloaks - they will hit. They are not subject to accuracy rules, which means you can equip quantums with extra crit, if that is your choice, and benefit from this crit heavily in PVP.

I score multi-kills in Kerrat. I've killed 3 klinks at a time on multiple occasions now, with a single back-to-back spread of quantums. Shooting for a quad-kill. Haven't seen a DHC setup capable of that yet.

http://i.imgur.com/LV5VFJf.jpg

I fire one of these a second. And I should update that screenshot - they're even deadlier now.

Your points have merits though I beg to differ with studies of my own.

In your pic, your Quantum has a damage yield of 18,048.6 kinetic damage per standard torp assuming after buffs such as TT, APA, TI and APO. In other words, the post-shield hull damage is only 10% of that or 1,805 hull damage or merely 903 against Resilient Shields. Yes, you can fire up to 1 such torp per second but not always so and against a fast moving target, it's not easy to maintain the firing arc.

To counter your arguments, I prepared screenshots of my own.

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/...FBC9C74A8AF39/

Per my screenshot, my Transphasic deals 10,280.6 kinetic damage per standard torp, same assumptions as above but with only 4 Transphasic Compressor MK XII purple instead of 5. My reasoning is that 5 tactical console is overkill, coming at the expense of other useful universal consoles and/or shielding / armor. But unlike your Quantums, the pressure of these Transphasics are far greater :

Against most shields : 10,280.6 X 10% + (0.90 X 10,280.6) X 40 % = 4,729 post-shield hull damage

Against resilient shields : 10,280.6 X 5% + (0.90 X 10,280.6) X 40 % = 4,215 post-shield hull damage



Post-shield hull damage comparison, Transphasic vs. Quantum

Non-Resilient Shields : 4,729 / 1,805 = Transphasic damage is 2.62 times that of Quantum
Resilient Shields : 4,215 / 903 = Transphasic damage is 4.67 times that of Quantum

Note, the Transphasics used the following boosts : 4 X Mk XII Transphasic Compressor (very rare), Rule 62 Console, Adapted MACO 2 set bonus. Given that istvaanshogaatsu stated he/she used 5 X 30% Tactical console, the caveat to these comparisonsabove is that the actual equivalent difference should be closer to 3 times and 5 times respectively for Non-Resilient and Resilient Shields. In other words, the Tranphasic Torp is between 3 to 5 times more effective at targeting hulls than equivalent Quantum torps.

Perhaps more important than anything else, the argument in favor of Transphasic over Quantum specialization lies in the synergy between the regular Transphasic Torps and Transphasic Cluster Torp. The Transphasic Compressor tactical console boosts all Transphasic projection damage, not just torpedo. As a result, here is the screenshot of what they look like using the same buff as its torpedo counterpart above :

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/...978E574D7E036/

This monster torpedo delivers a standard (non-critical damage) of 6,511.1 kinetic damage per mine. Given each contains 10 mines, the effective yield is 65,111 kinetic damage per torpedo, not counting any critical hits. Even when the target is protected by shields, the post shield damage is :

65,111 X 10% + (0.90 X 65,111) X 40 % = 29,951 hull damage post-shield


On a ship that is has 2 Transphasic loaded fore and 1 Cluster Transphasic, such ship can HY2 and TS3 the two regular torp, hide in Mask Energy Field, sneak upon the target within 5KM, tractor it, fire the torps. Because the target would not be able to detect the Cluster Torp hidden by Mask Energy Field (AOE), it can't target it and the distance being so short - reaction time is almost non-existant.

End result is roughly like this :

Transphasic TS3 : 8,985
Transphasic HY2 : 8.743
Transphasic Cluster : 29.951

Total hull damage : 47,679 without any critical hits in merely one single pass, which is sufficient to destroy most vessels except the tanky cruisers and carriers.

Unlike the BoP Alpha, many of the powers that could saved you against the BoP attack doesn't work against this Transphasic based Alpha. RSP has no effect, neither is TT. EPtS cycling is completey useless. FBP can't deter your attacker to abort. All of the above cannot be done using Quantum.

The verdict is loud and clear, Quantum is no match against Transphasic when used correctly and spec appropriately.
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 892
# 107
05-17-2013, 11:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by warmaker001b View Post

There's several problems however with the Breen Clusters if you want to maximize them, but there are some workarounds.

1. LONG COOLDOWNS - At least 30 seconds of a cooldown. Very lengthy for such a powerful weapon. However, Projectile DOFFs that cut down cooldowns work. The key to CD reduction is that the time reduction is applied *every time a torpedo is fired* I've been toying with 2x regular torpedoes cyclying fire, unbuffed or not. The key is to keep shooting torpedoes as fast as possible, to cut down Breen Cluster cooldowns. This works into bringing them back into the fight quickly.

2. MINE DAMAGE BOOST, NOT TORPEDO - The cooldown for Breen Cluster can be reduced via the Projectile DOFFs. But boosting the damage of this weapon is not done by any sort of torpedo related set, console, or BOFF ability outside of APA/APO/APD/APB. Mine Damage Consoles boost the damage of Breen Clusters. Try this next time and swap out your TAC Consoles for Mine related ones. The boost in damage will be quickly noticed. So those fancy Transphasic Damage Consoles are useless for Clusters.

So, in my toying around, I want to max the living hell out of Breen Cluster Build
. I was never impressed by regular transphasics. The centerpoint to this build is the Breen Cluster. Everything else is secondary to this. Consider this very much a WIP.

Actually, you got your facts wrong. Transphasic Compressor tactical consoldes do boost the Cluster Torp as it clearly states Transphasic projectile damage, which includes both torpedo & mines. The generic torpedo yield console does not boost it however.

The long cooldown on the cluster torp is no issue to some ships. In addition to having 3 purple projectile doff, my twin ships, the Infinity (Wells) and its evil twin, the Black Rose (Mobius) have Temporal Inversion Field which will reduce their CD immediately down to global cooldown of 15 sec. Tested against the Borg Unimatrix Command ships or Tactical Cubes in elite STF, the Temporal Inversion Field + cluster torp is just disastrous...for the Borg. These torps ended up firing so fast that Borg didn't stand a chance.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 783
# 108
05-17-2013, 12:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by warmaker001b View Post

2. MINE DAMAGE BOOST, NOT TORPEDO - The cooldown for Breen Cluster can be reduced via the Projectile DOFFs. But boosting the damage of this weapon is not done by any sort of torpedo related set, console, or BOFF ability outside of APA/APO/APD/APB. Mine Damage Consoles boost the damage of Breen Clusters. Try this next time and swap out your TAC Consoles for Mine related ones. The boost in damage will be quickly noticed. So those fancy Transphasic Damage Consoles are useless for Clusters.
[b]
Actually, you get less damage boost if you use the mine consoles. The transphasic console boosts projectiles, which includes torps and mines and it has a higher percentage boost than the mine console, which boosts every type of mines.

I've had a couple of nasty transphasic builds in the past and killed hundreds of ships in pvp with their shields still completely up. The problem is, you can't just rely solely on the transphasics to do your damage and you must supplement them with some other type of hull damage. I prefer to use Tractor Beam Repulsors with minimum auxiliary setting, which minimizes the push effect and keeps them in range longer for maximum damage.

This can work in a fast turning science ship (temporal ship, Vesta) or an escort with a lt. cmdr. science boff slot (Advanced Escort, Breen ship). For the science ship I run 2 transphasic torps + breen torp up front and the same in the back while running 2 copies of torp spread. I fill up the tac console slots all with transphasic boosting consoles and run Tractor Beam Repulsor 3 + Tractor Beam Repulsor 2 with 9 points in Particle generators and 2-3 particle generator boosting consoles, plus a fleet particle generator boosting deflector dish (the one without any graviton boost).

With an escort, I've found it better to replace the rear torps with transphasic mines since they do more damage and you have enough tac boff abilities to run both torp spreads and dispersal pattern betas. Pretty much same principle except of course you can't run TBR3.
----
@DevolvedOne
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,163
# 109
05-17-2013, 12:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by istvaanshogaatsu View Post
Oh, I never said you shouldn't use energy weapons. They compliment torps quite well. I run a forward experimental romulan beam array and a plasma DHC for shield popping, along with 2x BO I and CRF I.

Those are my only energy weapons, however. Rest of my armament is 2x quantum weapons fore and aft, and the Rom plasma torp aft to unlock that lovely plasma burn set bonus.
Oooo you are an evil man. I like that though. If you use the Hull Melt special beam attack with your Experimental Beam Array the damage you can do is absolutely SICK.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 186
# 110
05-17-2013, 04:19 PM
If you're advocating running transphasics as a pure gimmick torp build, and you want to solo gank people in Kerrat or something, enjoy. If you're doing group missions with people using energy weapons, however, leave the transphasics at home.
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