Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 51
08-21-2012, 09:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piwright42 View Post
Makes me happy to hear this.



If that is the case then an analogy like the skies over China in WWII would be appropriate. The P40 Warhawk could not turn with the Zero, but could out run a Zero in a dive. Also the P40 did not have the defensive roll rate of the Zero, but it had the armor in spades.

Take the Defiant as the Zero and go from there to make the slower turning Raptor Chennault's P40. Up armor the Raptor, leave the pivot point and turn rate where they are, increase the Raptor's inertia. Now you can use the punch through, run on, turn back and repeat method that Chennault taught the Flying Tigers to use and a Defiant is supposed to do, while preserving and enhancing the "unique feel" of flying the Raptor.

Sorry just my take on the disparity of the turn rate issue created by the Raptor's pivot point being there to make it feel different to fly than the Defiant.
It is rumor I liked as well. I can only hope it is true. I do trust the source though.

I have fun flying the Qin and find it has a fine burst capability, but that 4 second nose travel when you when you drop the throttle amd swing it makes my teeth itch as those seconds count slowly by.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 52
08-21-2012, 09:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by majesticmsfc View Post
Back on the 2nd Anniversary of STO, the KDF side was awarded with the Bortas class which later was re-released as the Bortasqu'. It was to go along side the new Federation Odyssey class. But lets face it, while a beautiful design it's not what we hopped. It seems a lot of Fan fans don't like it, it's a brick a slow turning brick.

We are told they the KDF ships don't sell, that they don't have time to make models and such for the KDF etc. Well when ships like this are released is it any wonder? I recommend that we are due for a flagship(s) that live up to the KDF population expectations while remaining balanced. We don't want god ships, we want new fun and competitive vessels.

So we're told they don't have the time to spend on the KDF faction, yet they found the time to produce 3 new ships for season 6. These designs are great looking designs that could be re-purposed for players as perhaps a new line of flagships or heavy battlecruisers.

http://www.stowiki.org/Warbarge_Dreadnought
http://www.stowiki.org/Balaur_Dreadnought
http://www.stowiki.org/Ravager_Dreadnought
On the one hand you're saying the Bortasqu is not liked because it is a slow turning brick - and then on the other hand you chose three massive dreadnought class ships that are most likely to have roughly the same brick like play as the Bortasqu.


I'm just not sure I understand what it is you're looking for here, Dreadnoughts are not zippy - the NPC versions of these ships included (you'll notice they just fly in a straight line usually).
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,212
# 53
08-22-2012, 09:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
HMM, well that could be an interesting idea for Romulan ships: don't give them Dual Cannons forward, give them Dual Dannons to the rear.
Yes, the more yogurt in the rear the better. Words to live by.
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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 54
08-22-2012, 11:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crusty8mac View Post
Yes, the more yogurt in the rear the better. Words to live by.
Oooooohhhhhhh I so tempted to snap a joke on this......but do not wish to get banned.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,047
# 55
08-22-2012, 02:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darat View Post
I haven't missed the point, I know there is an issue with the pivot point of the raptors as it is now, one that would be nice to have fixed.

The point I am trying to make is in response to:



And that point is, the raptor class should not be dropped and have the bop buffed to fill both the raider and escort roles.

Also, after more thought, checking the base stats of fed escorts at t4/t5 and the qin raptor, as well as the recollection of another post somewhere in these forums, I have come to another conclusion. And that is:

Fed escorts should out turn kdf raptors, the base turn rate of the AE, MVAE, and the blockade escort is 16 vs the raptors base of 15, the turn rate of any defiant model at any rank is 17 base, the only one that has matching turn rate is the HEC.
Considering the above with the fact that raptors are one of the oldest class and model of ships in the kdf lore and history, as mentioned in another post in these forums somewhere, it really comes as no surprise that the raptor is where it is now.
At the end of the day, each ship has it's strengths and it's weaknesses, it is then up to the individual pilot to utilize those strengths, and negate or defend against the weaknesses.

As for not mirroring the fed escorts, asking for a line of ships to behave the same comeing from 2 different cultures with completely different outlooks on performance is asking for just that.

As an addendum, I don't recall seeing the raptor being called an escort, I do recall seeing it referred to as an escort cruiser (or was that cruiser escort) in a KDF only mission.
That the Raptor is an old class is basically BS.

This is a backup of the original description for the Raptor from the STO website.

http://www.warcry.com/news/view/8984...aptor-Revealed

important cliffnotes:

-new design from 2397
-destroyer, not cruiser or anyhting of that kind.
-fast, maneuverable

so my questions:
Why should the Fed escorts outturn the Raptor?
and
Why, if it were some kind of escort-cuiser-whatever, does it have no cruiserlike characteristics?
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 48
# 56
08-22-2012, 02:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
That the Raptor is an old class is basically BS.

This is a backup of the original description for the Raptor from the STO website.

http://www.warcry.com/news/view/8984...aptor-Revealed

important cliffnotes:

-new design from 2397
-destroyer, not cruiser or anyhting of that kind.
-fast, maneuverable

so my questions:
Why should the Fed escorts outturn the Raptor?
and
Why, if it were some kind of escort-cuiser-whatever, does it have no cruiserlike characteristics?
I did some searching on memory alpha and beta, and with that release note for the raptor it brings about a change on my viewpoint.

I still say we need the raptor. I also still maintain that a correction to it's pivot points would make a world of difference to the ship line, it could still be out turned by all t4 and t5 escorts except for the HEC before skills factor in.

How ever, based on what I have read about the raptors in the last 12 hrs, it fails to do what it was meant to as is canon source as being a scout class, and it fails to perform as said in the release note as a destroyer. Both of which I find dissapointing.

New question, can a raptor out turn our own battle cruisers of the same level? or any level? Has anyone checked this?

All I can be sure of is, going by base stats, it should. But given that it's pivot points more match that of our battle cruisers, and in the light of the paper stat errors showing up with fleet ships, I wonder if when they put it on what appears to be the cruiser flight mechanic they didn't actually make the adjustment to the turn rates.

Addendum: my mention of the escort cruiser thing was not to say that's what it is meant to be, just that is what I have seen the game call it such in a FE mission. The more I think on this, the more I wonder if the devs at the time didn't just shortcut to hell and beyond to get the raptor in the game, remember the issues with the HEC for stfs and weapons? If the model for the raptor was just a copy and paste on to the battle cruiser set up that would cover allowing it to enter stfs, and equipping weapons like DHC's with minimal fuss/time doing so.
And to me, it does have a cruiser characteristic, the way it turns (even tho it shouldn't turn in that manner)

Last edited by darat; 08-22-2012 at 02:51 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 57
08-22-2012, 06:03 PM
Maybe if the pivot is unfixable at this point they could just give the Raptor class a +15 weapons and +10 engines bonus to give it the impression of being fast and heavy hitting instead nimble?

Fed escorts would still be the 3 hat trick of heavy hitting, nimble and fast so no toes would be stepped on and no kirkisms bruised.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 48
# 58
08-23-2012, 01:43 AM
I'd like to have a dev look into the posted and actual base turn rates of the Qin raptor now.

Just did a test with a fleet member, me on my engi in the vor'cha refit, him on tac in a qin, no rcs consoles on either ship, 71/50 engine power for me, 67/50 for the qin, 6/9 in ship impluse thrusters for me, 9/9 for fleetie.

I couldn't out turn the qin as i expected, but what i didn't expect was how much i was able to keep the vor'cha on target, until APA APO and evasive popped up that is.

My feelings after that, not so even, test match are that the actual base turn rate of a Qin is from 2 to 5 degrees lower than the stats suggest it to be.
If someone else wishes to do a more even matched pairing of the 2 feel free to do so.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,273
# 59
08-23-2012, 02:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darat View Post
I'd like to have a dev look into the posted and actual base turn rates of the Qin raptor now.

Just did a test with a fleet member, me on my engi in the vor'cha refit, him on tac in a qin, no rcs consoles on either ship, 71/50 engine power for me, 67/50 for the qin, 6/9 in ship impluse thrusters for me, 9/9 for fleetie.

I couldn't out turn the qin as i expected, but what i didn't expect was how much i was able to keep the vor'cha on target, until APA APO and evasive popped up that is.

My feelings after that, not so even, test match are that the actual base turn rate of a Qin is from 2 to 5 degrees lower than the stats suggest it to be.
If someone else wishes to do a more even matched pairing of the 2 feel free to do so.
Yeah. Basically, the raptors are somewhere between the Vorcha and the slowest-turning Fed escorts in terms of practical turning ability. It works ok-ish against cruisers, but escorts usually fly circles around it. I suspect that if the pivot issue was fixed, maneuvering against escorts would be noticeably easier.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 110
# 60
08-23-2012, 04:43 AM
raptors turn rate is terribly bad.

We cant keep up with federation escort in a dogfight.

Srsly now kdf got major problem when it comes to escort/raptor class

The new destroyer class is also slow turn rate its 17 instead of 15 turn rate of raptor.


Srsly now we got a MAJOR problem here

Cant you just give us a decent escort with a decent turn rate and a lt commander engineer so it got some decent survival and maybe a hangar bay and maybe some tractor pets???

Yeah once again i ask what most KDF players require both in game and in forums, an kdf raptor/destroyer carrier with a lt commander engineer and a hangar bay and keep the turn rate at 17 or same as the fed escort carrier.


Fleet raptor and fleet destroyer are mega fail ships (ok they are not mega fail just not good enough to compensate with the federation ones) and you wont take our money so easily.

You gave federation an extremely overpower ship both in papper and in action!!!!!!!
You gave federation escort carrier OP Ship and you give us those crappy raptors and destroyer and you expect us to spent RL money or in game money to buy this CRAP?????


YOU HAVE TO TRY HARDER IF YOU WANT OUR MONEY

THATS IT FOR ME PATIENCE RUN OUT NO MORE MONEY FROM ME OR MY RL FRIENDS EVER AGAIN UNLESS U START GIVING KDF SOME DECENT ESCORT SHIPS PERIOD.

YOU THERE PWE GREEDY DUDES? NO KDF SHOULD EVER PAY YOU UNLESS U START SHOWING SOME ATTENTION TO KDF SIDE!!!!

ENOUGH!
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