Lieutenant
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 33
Timers have completely destroyed the usefulness of cruisers and sci vessels (especially anything in T5), hell even the Odyssey for that matter. Seems like the Dreadnought Cruiser can still hang but that is about it on the cruiser line. Sure it is okay to get 1 cruiser/sci/T5 (unless it is an escort) but that is about it. Get any more cruisers in there and you won't beat the timer with normal players. Timers seriously need to be looked at. The last match I was in there were 2 Odyssey's, 1 sov and 2 escorts and we still couldn't beat the timer. This was on Federation Fleet Alert. The match before last same issue except there were two Sovereigns and 1 Sci, two escorts and we didn't win it. Got back in my escorted, dropped into a match that ended up with 3 escorts, 1 Odyssey and 1 Dreadnought, we still only beat the timer by 45 seconds. Yesterday 4 escorts ruled it missing 1 player who dropped when we started. I have been noticing this more and more, when I see more then 1 cruiser I am betting we can't win since 2 seem to be pushing it. Any more then 2 and it is almost 100% assured it is going to be a fail. Not sure if the cruiser just needs it's dps upped or if the timer needs to be pushed out longer but something needs to be done.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 771
# 2
08-06-2012, 08:38 PM
While a good cruiser won't do as much damage as a good escort, a good cruiser will still do more than enough damage to finish a a starbase defense.

And a well setup science vessel is invaluable, though having 4 or 5 might be a bit off. But having 4 or 5 of any one type is a bit unbalanced.
Ainu - Join Date: Aug 2008
Foundry Missions: 1) The Source of Power (ST-HSWUBD5TQ) [Federation] 16+
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Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 369
# 3
08-06-2012, 09:16 PM
The way I see it (slightly off topic) When you get a base to T5 and looking for that T5 Starbase Cruiser... You get an Oddy... Not just any Oddy, the Star Oddy. IMHO It is an ehh... The Dreadnought is the only T5 Ship that can somewhat compete with Fleet Ships.

Now if it was to get a Fleet Version... Hint Hint... With an extra slot that comes with the Saucer/ Shotgun Lance? Can you say ownage? Make it for T5 Starbase? I will pay the price of 5 Oddies for that. Or just an upgraded Version of the Dread...
The Average PvP player

1) Teamwork and timing is #1
2) You cannot "Kirk It" in every ship
3) You are going to die, just get back up
Lieutenant
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 33
# 4
08-06-2012, 09:52 PM
Just slightly off topic starcommando

Quote:
While a good cruiser won't do as much damage as a good escort, a good cruiser will still do more than enough damage to finish a a starbase defense.

And a well setup science vessel is invaluable, though having 4 or 5 might be a bit off. But having 4 or 5 of any one type is a bit unbalanced.
What is a good cruiser?

Sci vessels are useless, seems carriers are the new Sci vessels. I never see a need for them in Elite and above.

3 cruisers and 2 escorts should be more then enough to finish an Elite STF or Federation Fleet Alert. Right now timers are forcing 3 or more escorts into every match. With 4 escorts and 1 cruiser you can dominate any Elite STF or Fleet Starbase mission. 5 Escorts can dominate most things. My fleet is now telling newer players to go Escort at T5 or they won't be getting into many of our fleet events since 2 cruisers in an event is a waist of time. Only exception to the escort rule is if you go carrier. Most players want to play a cruiser and they are not able to. Cruisers should be the mainstay of a Fed fleet but they no longer are.

Now I am not in a fleet cruiser yet but it looks like they are ramping up the Elite STF's and Fleet events to get ready for the fleet ships. Ramp up what you have now that way you don't have to make new STF's or missions. Not saying that is what they are doing but if I wanted to go cheap that is how I would do it....
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 5
08-06-2012, 10:32 PM
Actually both sci and cruisers are perfectly fine ... what's lacking are the captains.

Anectodal evidence to illustrate: 'been flying around on my fresh VA Eng today, in a MAC (nice ship, and supercheap on exchange, 'allowed me to spent my RA token on a RSV instead, basically 120k dil saved at less than 1M EC), still with pretty much all green Mk X items that I got her from exhange at level 40. No borg console yet, no active duty DOffs, just the basic BOff-layout. As I wanted to see how well my build worked and how far I am from STF-readiness, I had DPS-meter running.
'Got three Borg Red Alerts on my tour. Perfect opportunities to test. Each time, there was an Oddy in there, too, last one even a Tac in Tac Oddy.
Result: I out-dps'ed the first two Oddys by 50%, and the Tac by 20%. And of course tanked everything just fine, as that's what the ship is build for.
Right, I out-dps'ed THEM! In a crappy geared simple T5 ship. Versus geared C-Store ships. 20-50%!
In fact, I out-dps'ed everyone in all three encounters, even two VA Escorts.
That simply should not happen.
But it tells you what's really wrong with cruisers.

As for Science Vessels ... you're kiddin me, right? SVs, if build well, deal nearly as much damage as a cruiser, and they can buff the whole group's dps by a huge amounts with a well-placed Grav-well (setting up for AoE) or Tiken's (draining shields to non-existence).
But, again: this takes a bit of skill. If done wrong, you're indeed useless - a well played SV though can keep itself alive forever in PvE, carry its share of dps AND boost group dps.
Everything, but not useless!

It's just a lot harder to totally screw up a Tac/Escort build - but, as already mentioned above, far from impossible.


'Doesn't mean that having more than one SV and Cruiser each is optimal, though. One cruiser that tanks is better than another Escort ... the second cruiser though WILL result in a loss of group effiency. The first SV buffs group dps further than you'd get by having another escort ... the second though reduces the damage to be buffed by more than the second set of debuffs makes up for.
... though that doesn't mean either that this makes PvE content impossible. Even 2 Cruisers and 3 SV can breeze through content, if they're played right. In fact, they'll still beat 5 Escorts that chain-explode as they lack a tank, which is quite a common sight, too.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 162
# 6
08-06-2012, 10:49 PM
Sorry, I love cruisers, and wasted so much actual money buyng them. But, the fact is a newb in an escort beats a newb in a cruiser as a wignman in elite missions/fleet missions.

My last pug was 5 escorts, and there was no need for a 10% rule on ISE, We blew everything in record time and it was over ridiculously fast. 1 Patrol escort, 1 MVAE, 2 Defiants, and a Raptor.

Take the same situation only make it 5 cruisers, which Ive done before in a pug, and forget making the optional, just pray you'll actually finish sometime that day. lol

That is the problem. An escort makes the difference no matter what group your with, no matter the number in the group, 1,2,3,4,5.
A cruiser or Sci ship. not the same can be said.

I see STO's current state as being ruled by Escorts and Carriers. The Armitage is the perfect Hybrid, that I have yet to buy, but will soon. I run 3 toons and wanted them all to play diferrently, but thats just adding to the grind by sticking them in a ship other then a EScort or Carrier.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 771
# 7
08-06-2012, 11:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by synthiasuicide View Post
That is the problem. An escort makes the difference no matter what group your with, no matter the number in the group, 1,2,3,4,5.
A cruiser or Sci ship. not the same can be said.
True to a degree, but I would still take a skilled cruiser over a noob escort.

Case in point: I did a pug Infected Space Elite run. My pug teammates were 4 tactical officers. 3 escorts, and 1 cruiser. I asked we go for 10%. They didn't listen, but I wasn't too concerned - we should have plenty of dps, and at worst, we just fail the optional, right?

So 25 minutes later, it turns out I was the only one able to kill things (science/escort). The others were so badly built their dps was low in the first place, and they were dying before they could kill anything (naturally, the tac/cruiser didn't do any outside healing). With that kind of performance, by the time I was able to clear out most of the probes, with the others maybe helping out with 1 of them, the next group had already spawned and had already flew up to us. Eventually everyone just left.

A noob escort will do more damage than a noob cruiser (assuming they don't die too fast). But a skilled cruiser will do much more than that - more than enough even for elite STFs.
Ainu - Join Date: Aug 2008
Foundry Missions: 1) The Source of Power (ST-HSWUBD5TQ) [Federation] 16+
-----=====*****<[ Fleet Recruitment Thread ]>*****=====-----
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 8
08-06-2012, 11:15 PM
Damn I took you a while to realize that the best way to do STF is with 5 escorts (not crap players though).
Lieutenant
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 33
# 9
08-06-2012, 11:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by synthiasuicide View Post
Sorry, I love cruisers, and wasted so much actual money buyng them. But, the fact is a newb in an escort beats a newb in a cruiser as a wignman in elite missions/fleet missions.

My last pug was 5 escorts, and there was no need for a 10% rule on ISE, We blew everything in record time and it was over ridiculously fast. 1 Patrol escort, 1 MVAE, 2 Defiants, and a Raptor.

Take the same situation only make it 5 cruisers, which Ive done before in a pug, and forget making the optional, just pray you'll actually finish sometime that day. lol

That is the problem. An escort makes the difference no matter what group your with, no matter the number in the group, 1,2,3,4,5.
A cruiser or Sci ship. not the same can be said.

I see STO's current state as being ruled by Escorts and Carriers. The Armitage is the perfect Hybrid, that I have yet to buy, but will soon. I run 3 toons and wanted them all to play diferrently, but thats just adding to the grind by sticking them in a ship other then a EScort or Carrier.
That is the same issue I am running into. Cruisers do not matter where as Escorts and Carriers do. If I see a SCI ship I just see waisted dps generally. A carrier can snare but still has great DPS and can take hits. Take a carrier over SCI anyday. Rather have escorts though. Problem with a SCI ship is you have to count on that SCI knowing exactly how to build and setup his ship. Not only that but when to use his skills. SCI ships take insane amount of skill to use. If you do a random elite STF generally you can assume that sci isn't going to be very good.

We did do a test to see if changing out the eng/cruiser to tac/cruiser made a difference and 3 of those cruisers with tac officers made a huge difference. Enough so we could beat Federation Fleet Alert with 3 cruisers. Put 3 Engineers in cruisers though and forget it. 2 eng/escorts and 3 tacs/cruisers can pull it off with about 40 seconds to spare. Now change that to 2 cruisers of any officer and 3 escorts.....NP! 4 escorts and a cruiser NP, 5 Escorts and it was soo easy it wasn't even funny.

Engineers are better in tac ships
Tactical are better in cruisers
SCI goes good in any ship but a SCI vessel. Great in carriers

This seems to be how it is going.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 10
08-06-2012, 11:23 PM
Actually a Sci ship with Gravity well can be a huge help in PvE, provided there is a good team.

Gravity well a group of mobs, cruisers fly and warp plasma it, escorts CSV / torpedo spread it to death -> Repeat.
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