Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 423
# 101
08-21-2012, 10:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
I personally would go away from direct dmg on science ship abilities and make them debuffs.

Tachyon beam = shield breach, debuffs the target shield dmg reduction for duration. Resists would reduce the duration of the debuff, cleared by science team. Duration is improved by Aux. Ideally, a tachyon beam 1 would counter Emergency Power to Shields 1 + 50 shield power effect.

Charged Particle Burst = disables cloak, debuffs the target and prevents shields to be healed by natural regen or abilities for the duration. Resists would reduce the duration of the debuff, cleared by science team. Duration is improved by Aux.

As for boosting science captains in sci ships. I would change sensor scan.

I would remove the dmg resistance debuff, and apply a new buff type that improves the magnitude of all offensive sci effect used on victim.
I agree with you in how you would change sci.
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 846
# 102
08-21-2012, 10:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dassemsto View Post
so your main argument is that a tac captain is only improving the abilities a bit, and that is for some reason worse than not improving them all? Being a little bit better is worse than being a little bit worse?

(PS: that vagisil comment is a dead giveaway. C'mon, you can do better than this. BTW: As I have barely touched my sci toon, or a sci ship, since the skill revamp, I have no doubt you would beat me in a sciship. I stopped doing sci/sci when I found other combinations were stronger after the revamp)
It's at Effective 0. Now compare that to removing someone's 75 percent SDR, 60 percent HDR, along with the HOTs that will definitely be on the target at the time, lengthening firing cycles, and cool downs on all abilities with the press of a button. While applying the same boff skill. SNB wins that hands down.

Crap bonus dps, vs Removal of heals. Seriously man, TR3, (even GW3 the other supposed big bad of tac scipeen#s) does lower dps than a Non High Yielded Torpedo does. GW3, fully auxed up, particle genned, and tac buffed, does less than a Transphasic Torp Spread 2 with buffs. To say nothing of possible constant pelting with a torp after that. Your Tack Buffed Turrets, will do more dps than a GW3 (no, seriously they do.)

PSW3 is on par with a nekkid tac buffed quantum in damage output. To say nothing of the laughably bad PSW1.

SNB is a much stronger ability than APA and GDF are, when low dps skills come into play. I'd argue that it's almost stronger period anyway given that you can dump 4 to 5 alphas into a target that's being cross healed, and without an SNB you won't down the target at all.

TBR is presently the only decent DPS sci skill left in the game, (FBP is too situation dependent) and even it's crank power isn't nearly what it was a while ago. Gone are the Crit Chains against multiple targets, it's crit chance is also lower than it was previously, per pulse. Tac Sci are on their way down the Flusher. Every bit as fast as Sci Sci is.

Maybe you pug too much. (and Maikai plays with his guildies and friends, so he's at minimum pugmading all the time. Which you are going to Face **** pugs anyway, SNB or not) Pugs don't heal, pugs don't use Resists correctly. So SNBs power is largely drained away, in those kind of situations.

Sci Powers, outside of Tractor 1, VM, TBR, and Doffed Up Spammed TR3s are offensively pathetic. Not a single one of them work properly anymore. It's not Tacs fault that this happened either. We can blame this squarely on Gecko not liking sci powers because "zomg not like trek at all!" while he puts more Dumb Ass Carriers into the game which NEVER appeared in trek.

Coincidentally, Tractor 1, VM, and TBR can also be fielded equally strong as a tac can field it. (maybe abit stronger since TBR changed abit) providing they don't try to use the last one as a dps skill but as a repulsion effect.

Last edited by ghostyandfrosty; 08-21-2012 at 10:33 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 103
08-21-2012, 10:23 AM
There were a couple of points earlier on by Mai Kai that I thought were interesting and wanted to ask questions about, so I'm sorry for necroing a bit here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716maikai View Post
I'm Mai Kai, from the fleet The spanish Inquisition. As far as I know, I'm still one of the top science players in the game.
Hi Mai Kai!


Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716maikai View Post
this thread has nothing to do with what a science captain can or can't do. it has to do with why is it a tactical captain can boost science powers but a science captian cant. its been like this since day one, and i've never understood why that is.
I have a similar question, but it's also slightly different.

I've also wondered as well why the Science captain can't really enhance their powers in any particular fashion better than a Tac.

I'm sort of neutral in the Tac buffing or not being able to buff Sci power damage.

On the one hand that's what Tacs do, damage. On the other hand, the way the game is designed the Sci captain does nothing to Sci powers at all - damage or otherwise, and that certainly doesn't make much sense either.


While you've specifically said this thread is not about what Sci captains can or can't do, if you ever get an idea to create a thread of what they should be able to do to enhance their ships - that's one I'd be very interested in (and I think we can all just hope maybe Bort sees it and finds something to take away from it).

Let's say Tacs do continue to buff the damage of Sci powers, I would really love for a Sci captain to be able to add Debuffs/Crowd Control to any ship they Captain. (Technically they do with Subnuc and Sensor Scan, but it's not on the level of a tac being able to completely buff the damage of anything and everything or an Eng being able to make anything more survivable).

I would like for them to be able to directly enhance the weapons to match the way Tacs can buff Sci damage powers. (caveat, this could also be some scary territory).

Imagine an APA equivalent, but instead of criticals and damage - weapons & powers have slows, drains or similar added to their base effects - could be exciting, could also be terrifyingly overpowered but it's a fun idea.




Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716maikai View Post
i dont think its right that a tactical in a science ship can make the most of his guns (full weapon power) sensor anylasis (extra weapon damage) and make the most of non aux damage sci powers (like shockwave) and then add all of his extra bonuses from tactical captain abilities on top of all 3 of those.

the extra damage should only apply to weapon damage from a tactical. otherwise it seems tacitcals are better at sci then science.
I don't technically disagree, but they are better at killing with science.

I'd like to see Sci captains actually make Sci powers better at doing many of the other things Sci powers are (or should be, rather) designed to do.

That being said, I'm not sure how to accomplish that without re-writing the entire set of sci captain abilities.






Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716maikai View Post
yes the anwser should be to boost debuffs. but since the first patch a couple years ago science powers that dont deal damage have been slowly and slowly become more and more useless.
Yes, this is a major system wide issue. It's pretty atrocious.


Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716maikai View Post
why is this such a bad thing to want tacticals to be good at dealing weapon damage and not all damage? if you want to deal damage as a tactical officer then the ideal remark should be "go fly an escort or cruiser" but nope! its "go fly whatever you want because your powers increase ALL damage you do reguardless of how you do it!" that isnt very balancing IMO.
I just want to re-iterate that I am on the fence about this issue - I do think that the above statement also holds true for an Engineer.

An engineer can also go fly whatever they want and make it amazingly more survivable.

The problem, I think, is that a Sci captain does not get the same mileage nor lend enough to make their ship do any one thing really well.

You can't say the same thing about a Sci captain that you can about Tacs and Engineers, and that's a shame.





Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716maikai View Post
crowd control,
science in a science ship (in theory) should be the best at this! wrong. a tactical can do a lot more dps and all the crowd controlling science captian could do.

This is the disjointed part in my opinion.

I think Sci captains as they are designed lack focus. They have no real crowd control to speak of and no way to really add it to ships in a major fashion.

They have some Debuffing and some buffs, and photonic fleet.

And while powers like Subnuc and Sensor Scan are good the design of the class is all over the place - unlike Tacs that have a number of ways to simply make things die and Engineers that have a number of ways to increase their survivability.

I really think the design of Sci captains is the culprit here, and I'd be very interested in your opinion.

Last edited by ussultimatum; 08-21-2012 at 10:26 AM.
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,155
# 104
08-21-2012, 11:15 AM
I just wanna poke my nose in here to say that I've been reading this thread with interest. Please carry on.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Systems Design
"Play smart!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
Kurland here...
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,671
# 105
08-21-2012, 11:33 AM
I think that behinds mai's and ghosty's battle of whits are two maybe three separate issues.
1) Sci ships are imbalanced any player class does better in cruisers or escorts depending on their preference.
I had once suggested that sci ships should get passive boosts (much like Sensor Analysis) that has one effect on their own ship, and another applied to their team. With a limit to them stacking. Making sci ships more effective at solo PvE and at high level PvP. Each ship could have a unique flavor to this boost making for moare chocies which is always good.

2) Player class balance embodied in their cpt skills has come somewhat out of whack. The amount of external healing to keep a tac/scort alive has dropped radically, by introducing the jem bug/stacking shield distro doffs/the skill tree revamp/the low oportunity cost of the assimlated borg set pieces and maybe even more factors.
Furthermore, the nadion cpt skill for engs has lost much of its potential with the weapons energy consumption revamp. Taken together it makes Engs somewhat pointless beyond bringing one healer eng in a team (space that is, the new OS and explosives have somewhat made the class viable for ground pve again).

While i think that SNB is great the way it is (much more powerful then APA) in pvp it is kind of meh in PvE. Be that as it may, it would be great to get more synergy between Sci/sci combo. It is indeed a bit weird that Tac boost sci skills better then Sci. I'm fine with high crit PSW3 being reserved for tacs, but a similar increase in the stun would be a nice thing. basically make cc and debuff more effective and make that part of the sci profession. Sci fleet has never made much sense to me, even after the nerf.

Tac opportunity cost seems just to low. There are no more glass cannons, PvE is a DPS race so there really isn't much reason to fly anything but tac.

3) the sci part of the skill tree revamp has kicked sci (class and ship) in the nuts hard. A nerf was in order but it went to far. Start by fixing this, then rebalance player skills and then lets take a look at BOs/ship class balance.
Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,643
# 106
08-21-2012, 11:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
I just wanna poke my nose in here to say that I've been reading this thread with interest. Please carry on.
i dont think anyone here agrees with ghostyandfrosty. theres no reason a tac/sci couldn't load up on graviton gens and switch to more controlling tactics then pure damage dealing tactics. they can do both, wile sci can just control. the sci can also not make full use of snb's power by itself, it needs a heavy hitter around to do that for him. the tac sci doesn't need any help, it can be a heavy hitter all by itself, bypassing shields almost completely and being able to kill with half the effort it takes to kill someone any other way. thats not to say it isn't extreamly tricky to do correctly.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 846
# 107
08-21-2012, 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
i dont think anyone here agrees with ghostyandfrosty. theres no reason a tac/sci couldn't load up on graviton gens and switch to more controlling tactics then pure damage dealing tactics. they can do both, wile sci can just control. the sci can also not make full use of snb's power by itself, it needs a heavy hitter around to do that for him. the tac sci doesn't need any help, it can be a heavy hitter all by itself, bypassing shields almost completely and being able to kill with half the effort it takes to kill someone any other way. thats not to say it isn't extreamly tricky to do correctly.
Sure there is. Your DPS will be Crap if you load up on gravitons instead of particle gens. How about you go try it yourself. Have fun with your 3k crits, that are easily repaired and mitigated.
Your best Asset, which is Damage becomes non existent when you do that. Turrets will deal more effective DPS than you will with gravitons.

Sci on the other hand? Their best asset remains. It actually makes more sense to do it as a sci, and likely you'll have more kills at the end of a match doing that, than a tac will.

"Raw dmg tac will be better though zomg zomtg!" Yeah. And that damage is FAR more easily taken care of than the sub nuc that the sci will be giving once he gets the target far away from his allies. And then after that the sci will actually do -more- damage out put than the tac will. Why? Because Buffs matter.

Tac sci, 9/10 times will not deal nearly as much death as a Tac escort. In that 1/10 circumstances, the enemy has been heavily debuffed, and mauled by almost everyone on the team.

And that's in the Best Case of having multiple TBRs to work with. Because Grav Well, regardless of console type isn't going to do Jack.

A sci, using TR3 can rip off buffs, and score kills with a combo of chroniton crap, TR3 procs, lolarons a Sub Nuc and Target Subs. A tac on the othe rhand will be dealing laughably bad damage while TR3 is up, that is more than easily mitigated by enemy healing.

Of course this all assumes you aren't facing pugs that are killable by Overload 1 carrying Shuttles as well.

But hey what do I know. It's not like I'm a high end pvper or anything. It's not like I spend 50 percent of the small time I do play anymore, in sci sci, or tac scis or anything.

Last edited by ghostyandfrosty; 08-21-2012 at 11:54 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 609
# 108
08-21-2012, 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
I just wanna poke my nose in here to say that I've been reading this thread with interest. Please carry on.
Hopefully you'll see the issue isn't with tactical class, it is with science class, which DO have very annoying and effective skills. Not saying there isn't room for improvement, but please don't do an insane buff...

Where is our escort/sci ships?

| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,496
# 109
08-21-2012, 12:25 PM
Perhaps the following could be done to each of the professions..

For Tacticals, Attack Pattern Alpha, and Go down Fighting, would be changed to only work on Weapons.

Tactical Officers would then have an Innate Space Trait, Any Power that deals damage would get a X% Damage boost, starting at 1% at Lt 1 and raising to 5% At VA/LG 50. (Example of Powers effected: Gravity Well, Eject Warp Plasma, etc..)

Science Officers would have an Innate Space Trait that would increase the Durations of any Targeted/AOE based effects by 1% Starting at Lt 1 raising to 5% at VA/LG 50, and increase shield resists by .5% at LT1 to 2.5% at VA/LG 50. (Example of powers effected: Viral Matrix, Photonic Shockwave's Stun, etc..)

Engineering Officers would have an Innate Space Trait that would Increase the durations of any Personal/Self Powers by 1% Starting at Lt 1 raising to 5% at VA/LG 50, and increase Hull resists by .5% at LT1 to 2.5% at VA/LG 50. (Example of powers effected: Emergency Power to X, Polarized hull etc..)
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,643
# 110
08-21-2012, 12:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostyandfrosty View Post
Sure there is. Your DPS will be Crap if you load up on gravitons instead of particle gens. How about you go try it yourself. Have fun with your 3k crits, that are easily repaired and mitigated.
Your best Asset, which is Damage becomes non existent when you do that. Turrets will deal more effective DPS than you will with gravitons.

Sci on the other hand? Their best asset remains. It actually makes more sense to do it as a sci, and likely you'll have more kills at the end of a match doing that, than a tac will.
the fundamental flaw in this thinking is that if you were flying a tac to control, you don't care about your damage. it doesn't mater if you deal as much damage as a sci at that point. the tac when ever he wishes can then swap to particles and go for damage, buffed tremendously by his tac skills. a sci cant ever do that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostyandfrosty View Post
"Raw dmg tac will be better though zomg zomtg!" Yeah. And that damage is FAR more easily taken care of than the sub nuc that the sci will be giving once he gets the target far away from his allies. And then after that the sci will actually do -more- damage out put than the tac will. Why? Because Buffs matter.

Tac sci, 9/10 times will not deal nearly as much death as a Tac escort. In that 1/10 circumstances, the enemy has been heavily debuffed, and mauled by almost everyone on the team.
do you not realize that to a properly set up tac/sci your target might as well not have shields equipped? that its direct to hull damage with tac buff FBP followed by TBR is enough to kill even a cruiser through its shields? i guess you never encountered one like that, i sure have. any other captain in any other ship will always have to deal with shields and then deal with hull, there ist a captain and ship combination that does direct to hull damage better, and does enough to kill through shields completely.

snb can be cured a second later by ST too, you cant count on it to be a trump card. if enemies can close and surround the SNB'ed player, allies can too just as easily. no sci/sci has killed me on his own after he subnuked me, there isn't anything he can do that deals enough damage, regardless of how VM'ed or subsystem targeted i am.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostyandfrosty View Post
And that's in the Best Case of having multiple TBRs to work with. Because Grav Well, regardless of console type isn't going to do Jack.
everyone knows that. i seriously hope no LTC stations and up are wasted on it in a tac/sci


Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostyandfrosty View Post
A sci, using TR3 can rip off buffs, and score kills with a combo of chroniton crap, TR3 procs, lolarons a Sub Nuc and Target Subs. A tac on the othe rhand will be dealing laughably bad damage while TR3 is up, that is more than easily mitigated by enemy healing.
A tac, using TR3 can rip off buffs just as easily as a sci can. and can score the kills nearly the same way a sci can, missing only snb and gaining tac buffed instead.

A tac on the other hand will be dealing crippling damage while TR3 is up, which is much harder to mitigated by enemy healing then shield damage because people have a lot more shield healing then hull healing, because you need 1 more then the other, unless a tac/sci is around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostyandfrosty View Post
Of course this all assumes you aren't facing pugs that are killable by Overload 1 carrying Shuttles as well.

But hey what do I know. It's not like I'm a high end pvper or anything. It's not like I spend 50 percent of the small time I do play anymore, in sci sci, or tac scis or anything.
your describing every one in this thread. being a high end pvp'er isnt special here. but the points i have made shouldn't have to be explained to a high end pvp'er.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:54 AM.