Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,932
# 181
09-02-2012, 08:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dassemsto View Post
yeah.. and who pugs anyway?

in STO we all fly premade!

am I much off if I say 95% of all matches in STO have at least 1 PUG team?

am I wrong in saying that a fresh outta PvE sci-captain have crappy captain abilities when he tries his hand in PvP?

am I at fault for wanting the sci captain to play a role also outside of premades? (or maybe even outside of PvP?)

Sure, the sci-sci has a role in a premade.... :p
i pug, at least 95% of the time im not on a team with any sort of advanced coordination. i think its to bad sci sci has no real purpose outside of high level matches, but really i don't see one. at least sci/sci has a place, a limited but important place. if you want to log in and have fun nothing works better then a tac captain in any ship though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716maikai View Post
then imagine how insanely powerful the tactical captain will be when they do fix science powers.

if science powers were fixed tomorrow, science captains still cant do **** with them.

tactical captains then would gain all the crowd control AND the un-needed extra damage from the science powers.
oh i dont think 'fixed' science powers would do a whole lot to make a tac/sci more dangerous in its limited pub stomping role. what would fixed sci powers look like?

vm- tac has no effect on it, and its actually an effective power at ruining someones day. its counter is generally on cooldown due to tt. proboly doesn't need changing.

CPB/TachB- these deal drain damage that tac powers have no effect on, it ignores conventional resistance and is buffed by flow cap and resisted by insulators. tacs would have no advantage from this getting buffed out of being worthless.

PSW- to a sci/sci it would be the stun thats important, unless shield striping worked then the damage it causes might mater to sci cpatains again. but its really the sci's job to arrange the setup. tacs would benefit from this if it was buffed back to its old 'bugged' self. a sci/sci isn't really meant to be a surgical striker but it can still deal damage with this, wile not giving up all its important captain powers at the same time

FBP/TBR- these are what tacs use for damage dealing, for sci they are more useful as a deterrent and a ball of healing disruptor, with push and not damage being the point. these 2 powers don't need fixing imo, or normal tracter beam

rift- tac might effect the tiny damage it deals, but its basically irreverent ether way. with doffs it seems like it can drain you dry some how. a more reliable middle ground for this is needed.

grav well- i suppose tac buff can make the damage on this pretty strong, but to a sci sci it would be the pull that would be most important for anyone else with tric mines, iso, CRF, warp plasma, stuff like that. it really just needs to pull like it used to, regardless of who thinks its uncanon. its not like any hero ship got sucked into a black hole, thiers no canon violating aspect of that great pull it used to have.

fixed sci to me doesn't really sound like something that will just benefit tac captains, it will simply give sci captains all the old options they had back and be more effective in a general and pub sense.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordlalo View Post
I just wanted to say, I've never seen a more disturbing avatar
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 723
# 182
09-02-2012, 08:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post


oh i dont think 'fixed' science powers would do a whole lot to make a tac/sci more dangerous in its limited pub stomping role. what would fixed sci powers look like?

vm- tac has no effect on it, and its actually an effective power at ruining someones day. its counter is generally on cooldown due to tt. proboly doesn't need changing.

CPB/TachB- these deal drain damage that tac powers have no effect on, it ignores conventional resistance and is buffed by flow cap and resisted by insulators. tacs would have no advantage from this getting buffed out of being worthless.

PSW- to a sci/sci it would be the stun thats important, unless shield striping worked then the damage it causes might mater to sci cpatains again. but its really the sci's job to arrange the setup. tacs would benefit from this if it was buffed back to its old 'bugged' self. a sci/sci isn't really meant to be a surgical striker but it can still deal damage with this, wile not giving up all its important captain powers at the same time

FBP/TBR- these are what tacs use for damage dealing, for sci they are more useful as a deterrent and a ball of healing disruptor, with push and not damage being the point. these 2 powers don't need fixing imo, or normal tracter beam

rift- tac might effect the tiny damage it deals, but its basically irreverent ether way. with doffs it seems like it can drain you dry some how. a more reliable middle ground for this is needed.

grav well- i suppose tac buff can make the damage on this pretty strong, but to a sci sci it would be the pull that would be most important for anyone else with tric mines, iso, CRF, warp plasma, stuff like that. it really just needs to pull like it used to, regardless of who thinks its uncanon. its not like any hero ship got sucked into a black hole, thiers no canon violating aspect of that great pull it used to have.

fixed sci to me doesn't really sound like something that will just benefit tac captains, it will simply give sci captains all the old options they had back and be more effective in a general and pub sense.
This. The only reason Tacs in Sci ships are better than Sci's in sci ships, right now, is because the majority of viable powers are damage dealing powers (TBR for example).

Make the other powers viable again and the sci/sci will be back.
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 846
# 183
09-02-2012, 08:58 PM
Look Mai. You're being stupid. Everyone knows it at this point, I'm not convinced you actually want to buff sci captains at all just kick the tacs in the junk so that they go right back to never touching sci ships.

You say "zomg weapon damage zomg zomg zomg" And I say stuff it. Sci ship weapons Suck Ass for Damage Dealing, especially with the Limited Tac boffs. Tac weapon damage in a sci ship is utterly Pathetic.

You take away tac boosted sci skills and the Tac might as well go back to his Escort. Because he's certainly not going to be generating Kills with Sci Guns. Infact the combo is so laughably bad that even for Pug Duty it's a terrible choice. We had it your way for the better part of a year and a half. And guess what champ, no tacs touched a sci ship outside of a very very select few of us, who were only putting our tacs in sci ships to test for our Sci Scis later.

You boost the CC aspect of sci powers, and then you cry "zomg imagine tacs with the debuff powa!" And guess what, there chump, a tac going for the Debuff Aspect is going to Suck Balls. Because his tac boosted sci damage? Is a complete farce, vs him going and building for Damage. Infact his damage is so hindered by doing this, that he is actually a Better CC Specialist when he builds for Damage Dealing in the first place, a sci on the other hand? Not so much. And the Sci, having SNB is no matter how you try to deny, or faceroll scream A Debuff and CC synergetic Power. It's the power that pushes a ship right over the edge, when the CC aspect is properly employed. (Ie you just kicked someone 15km away from allies and your team closes on the target. Oh right. you hate TBR. Because you don't think it works. Because you can't fly for **** . Or when VM with Doffs hits the target, and he blows defensive buffs before his aux can get shut down so he doesn't get Hosed. And then you SNB it all off anyway. Preferably after you just kicked his ass 15km away)

A Tac building around CC and Debuff, Sucks Period. This rings true even in Escorts. Because the tac can't apply it's best asset. Strong damage. Your damage is so Pathetically Low without particle gen consoles on a tac sci ship, that it really doesn't matter if you are boosting your damage output.

Why it's almost like, tacs are better at something than a sci. Damage.

Also Dassem: you will never get what you want. balance for pugging. Because pug players in this game? Dude they are so mentally crippled that most of the time they can't even balance their own shields. Of course Sub Nuc doesn't matter against that kind of Trash. Unless you gave sci "Super duper sci pattern alpha~!" where it boosts all sci power damage by +50 percent you won't notice a single damn difference.

What the "kick tac in the nuts" camp is blatantly ignoring is that Sci Weapons Suck Ass. Period. No ands ifs or buts about it. Their Damage Capability Sucks Ass. Or maybe you aren't ignoring that. and you really are butt hurt that tacs can put up pretty almost meaningless #s on a scoreboard at the end of a match, and completely ignore all the Direct Kills that SNB scores.

Tell you what, you give all sci ships 4 tac consoles and DHC capability then we'll talk about taking away tac boosted sci skills. Till then you are all just being a bunch of whiny little girls that can't handle seeing #s on a scoreboard.

Last edited by ghostyandfrosty; 09-02-2012 at 09:01 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,392
# 184
09-02-2012, 10:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostyandfrosty View Post
... Snip Other Stuff ...

Sci ship weapons Suck Ass for Damage Dealing, especially with the Limited Tac boffs. Tac weapon damage in a sci ship is utterly Pathetic.

... Snip Other Stuff
I don't think this is as true anymore. For example, currently using Tyken's III, VM, topped w/ES TSSx Sci ships can disable/shutdown targets and the Sci Ships Torps/Mines can then potentionally deal deadly spike damage or even a BO. There's a variety of Sci ships that have Uni Slots as well as non-Sci ships which can field both Lt Commander and up Sci/Tac Boffs, eg Odsy. Sci, Tholian Sci, Kar-fi, and BoPs.

Off subject, Aux2Batt Doffs allow for many non aux dependent abilities to be cycle through quickly, allowing for much shorter cooldowns. This helps reduce long cooldown sci abilities. Also, this let's Tac Captains use Cruisers which have decent Tac Boff layouts/turnrate, to cycle DEM3 nearly as if were 2 copies same w/APO and CVS. The point being Tacs can have a place in non-escort ships.

Weapons aside I'd prefer if the damage Sci Skills were fewer and far between, and if there were some, the few that did exist were benefited from Sci Captain's ability or Sci Boff Traits.

Still, I'd give a boost for a Tac Captain in a Sci ship using the Ship's native SubSytem Targeting since it's a Tac ability by design.
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 846
# 185
09-02-2012, 10:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
I don't think this is as true anymore. For example, currently using Tyken's III, VM, topped w/ES TSSx Sci ships can disable/shutdown targets and the Sci Ships Torps/Mines can then potentionally deal deadly spike damage or even a BO. There's a variety of Sci ships that have Uni Slots as well as non-Sci ships which can field both Lt Commander and up Sci/Tac Boffs, eg Odsy. Sci, Tholian Sci, Kar-fi, and BoPs.

Off subject, Aux2Batt Doffs allow for many non aux dependent abilities to be cycle through quickly, allowing for much shorter cooldowns. This helps reduce long cooldown sci abilities. Also, this let's Tac Captains use Cruisers which have decent Tac Boff layouts/turnrate, to cycle DEM3 nearly as if were 2 copies same w/APO and CVS. The point being Tacs can have a place in non-escort ships.

Weapons aside I'd prefer if the damage Sci Skills were fewer and far between, and if there were some, the few that did exist were benefited from Sci Captain's ability or Sci Boff Traits.

Still, I'd give a boost for a Tac Captain in a Sci ship using the Ship's native SubSytem Targeting since it's a Tac ability by design.
And in that case an Escort can do more damage by far for you than what that setup is providing you. And against Smart players, your damage out put is Nil. Which is to a great detriment to your team mates ability to bring down targets.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,392
# 186
09-02-2012, 11:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostyandfrosty View Post
And in that case an Escort can do more damage by far for you than what that setup is providing you. And against Smart players, your damage out put is Nil. Which is to a great detriment to your team mates ability to bring down targets.
Correct, what I described won't have the damage #s of an escort, but it can be very deadly regardless and potentionally more so by a Tac Captain than a Sci since a Tac Captain can significantly boost the weapon's spike damage once the target defenses are shutdown. There are a few Sci Ships with options for Tac Boff layout to spike at the appropriate time. From what I've seen having even just a couple of ships spam VMs and Tykens (w/Doffs) is enough to cause serious problems, and they don't have to be Sci ships to do it.

A Sci BoP (though BoPs are being left in the dust) or MVAE pilot won't have the same numbers as a Tac Pilot, but can be potentionally more effective b/c they can better time their Captain abilities, via ship manuverability, than if they were in most Sci Ships and still do solid damage w/DHCs and Tac Boffs as well as use Sci CC/Debuff.

The TAC Aux2Batt cruiser build I described can put up very high damage numbers, but it won't have the spike capabilities of a Tac Escort. It still is one of the best pressure DPS setups period. It has the potential to add more raw damage numbers than most Tac Escorts.
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 846
# 187
09-02-2012, 11:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
Correct, what I described won't have the damage #s of an escort, but it can be very deadly regardless and potentionally more so by a Tac Captain than a Sci since a Tac Captain can significantly boost the weapon's spike damage once the target defenses are shutdown. There are a few Sci Ships with options for Tac Boff layout to spike at the appropriate time. From what I've seen having even just a couple of ships spam VMs and Tykens (w/Doffs) is enough to cause serious problems, and they don't have to be Sci ships to do it.

A Sci BoP (though BoPs are being left in the dust) or MVAE pilot won't have the same numbers as a Tac Pilot, but can be potentionally more effective b/c they can better time their Captain abilities, via ship manuverability, than if they were in most Sci Ships and still do solid damage w/DHCs and Tac Boffs as well as use Sci CC/Debuff.

The TAC Aux2Batt cruiser build I described can put up very high damage numbers, but it won't have the spike capabilities of a Tac Escort. It still is one of the best pressure DPS setups period. It has the potential to add more raw damage numbers than most Tac Escorts.
"potentially" yeah. if the target is not Skilled. if the target is Skilled the only way you are doing any significant damage with that load out is with a Sci Captain to SNB their remaining defenses away with, since sci weapons aren't capable of enough Throw Down to overcome even diminished defenses, even with tac buffs barring a 20 percent GDF bonus. Sure, you can run a CC Debuff Build as a tac, but it won't be nearly as effective, as a Sci will be at it, because Tac buffs synergize with things that do significant damage to start with. Not plinky weapons, or weapons that you have to hope some how you will down a facing with to unload a burst with by itself. Both of which, are weapons that are fit to sci ships.

Only good bop is the Sci Bop. And that's best employed via sci captain due to the ships ludicrous agility to use SNB willy nilly along with the 90 degree sci skills like VM, and TR3. The DHCs are there to simply add pressure to the mix, while the tac in the Karfi, or Fleet Vorcha throws it down and lays waste to the now crippled target.

As I said before, Tac Sci is the DPS Wizard
Sci Sci, is the Debuff/Curse Wizard.
Both perform CC roles, but do so vastly differently when they are built for maximum effectiveness. Kicking DPS wizards in the junk to remove them from the game is not going to solve the fact that the Curse/Debuff Wizard isn't up to snuff. (and frankly I would argue that they are still plenty up to snuff when built to the 9s and fighting players of Skill. because pugs? debuffs don't matter AT ALL against people that honestly die to Shuttlecraft while in T5 ships)

And both are still far and away better than the dumb ass engineer.

Last edited by ghostyandfrosty; 09-02-2012 at 11:36 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 735
# 188
09-03-2012, 12:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostyandfrosty View Post
Also Dassem: you will never get what you want. balance for pugging. Because pug players in this game? Dude they are so mentally crippled that most of the time they can't even balance their own shields. Of course Sub Nuc doesn't matter against that kind of Trash. Unless you gave sci "Super duper sci pattern alpha~!" where it boosts all sci power damage by +50 percent you won't notice a single damn difference.
Actually, Sci pattern alpha would fit the bill perfectly! Make it replace photonic spam, and give it +50 to all the offensive sci skills (grav/part generators, flow cap, CMS, decompiler)

Also, replace Scatter/Dampening Field with a single target shield resistance debuff. Like FOMM, but for shields rather than hull. (Call it "NO! Fire on MY mark instead!" )

Then we'd have us a sci captain that was worth taking into combat!
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,532
# 189
09-03-2012, 12:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostyandfrosty View Post
And why can't the sci, know how to better afflict the enemy ship with negative status effects?

And why doesn't the Engineer know how to best effect repairs to ships? Because right now? Engineer Captains Suck, not by a little, but by ALOT. I would much rather have a sci cruiser right now than an Eng Cruiser for healing duties, they suck so hard thanks to all the new super healing doffs we have in pvp.
Yup, preach it baby until systems takes the mickey mouses off and actually looks at what is happening.How many premades run more then one eng in anything?
I'm royally annoyed right now. I have 5 toons, and a love for sci ships, combined with a passionatae hate for carriers. my mains, my most developed alts are pretty much all on hold when a real team is trying to form. Because sci/sci, sci/cruiser, eng/cruiser, eng/sci just plain suck at what they are supposed to do. CC is worthless, tacs do it better, and no one needs the healing from a second eng on the team.

And yes SNB is still responsible for effective kills. What does the increased pressure from eng's do that isn't negated by borg or Distro Doff procs?? When is the last time a two eng cruiser match has ended before a new season put everything on reset.
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Last edited by havam; 09-03-2012 at 01:06 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,392
# 190
09-03-2012, 01:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostyandfrosty View Post
"potentially" yeah. if the target is not Skilled. if the target is Skilled the only way you are doing any significant damage with that load out is with a Sci Captain to SNB their remaining defenses away with, since sci weapons aren't capable of enough Throw Down to overcome even diminished defenses, even with tac buffs barring a 20 percent GDF bonus. Sure, you can run a CC Debuff Build as a tac, but it won't be nearly as effective, as a Sci will be at it, because Tac buffs synergize with things that do significant damage to start with. Not plinky weapons, or weapons that you have to hope some how you will down a facing with to unload a burst with by itself. Both of which, are weapons that are fit to sci ships.

Only good bop is the Sci Bop. And that's best employed via sci captain due to the ships ludicrous agility to use SNB willy nilly along with the 90 degree sci skills like VM, and TR3. The DHCs are there to simply add pressure to the mix, while the tac in the Karfi, or Fleet Vorcha throws it down and lays waste to the now crippled target.

As I said before, Tac Sci is the DPS Wizard
Sci Sci, is the Debuff/Curse Wizard.
Both perform CC roles, but do so vastly differently when they are built for maximum effectiveness. Kicking DPS wizards in the junk to remove them from the game is not going to solve the fact that the Curse/Debuff Wizard isn't up to snuff. (and frankly I would argue that they are still plenty up to snuff when built to the 9s and fighting players of Skill. because pugs? debuffs don't matter AT ALL against people that honestly die to Shuttlecraft while in T5 ships)

And both are still far and away better than the dumb ass engineer.
1st, I agree about Engineer. Imo, defenses have been boosted far too much while offesive firepower has hardly been boosted (w/the exception of tet glider and 5 Tac Console Escorts). The easiest solution to this to me is to raise max level again for weapons and boost Weapon systems buffer power limit. There's so many ways to gain power anymore (too many imo) there's not nearly the power mgt benefit there used to be, a niche of Engineers. The increase buffer power would be a way to for those abilities to shine a bit again.

I don't agree w/the Tac Sci DPS wizard analogy. This is a space game not a fantasy game. That said traditionally "DPS wizards" have the lowest defenses and hps of all. Sci Boats are hardly that. If you really want to try the Tac Sci DPS wizard waste $ on the Fleet 16k hull BoP.

The issue isn't the target regarding the rough build I mentioned. The stacking Tyken's proc is AoE likely to catch some of the target's allies. For any target it's only a matter of time before they have zero power to all systems. I don't see an issue w/a Tac boff torp volley or 2 or BO or 2 killing a boat w/o shields and zero movement.

The "potential" I implied deals w/the Tac Sci being subjected to like disabling abilities and/or having a more limited defense capability than a Sci Sci and not having repair support from others while under focus fire.
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