Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 735
# 191
09-03-2012, 01:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by havam View Post
[And yes SNB is still responsible for effective kills. What does the increased pressure from eng's do that isn't negated by borg or Distro Doff procs?? When is the last time a two eng cruiser match has ended before a new season put everything on reset. [/color]
Funny you should mention SNB and engineers in the same paragraph. Engineers are the class that is most resiliant to just that! You SNB him when he's fully boff-buffed with HE, EPtoS, TSS etc, and he just slaps down RSF and/or MW.

G&F has also mentioned how good being a sci in a drain build is, how it is better for a sci than a tac just because of SNB. This is basically the only thing a sci/sci does better than a tac/sci, and the only thing a sci/sci can do well...unless... the target is an engineer. He has spare heals to recover his resists, EPS-transfer will restore his power, and MW will restore downed subsystems. (at least it used to afai remember?)

So by the statement that SNB is the most powerful skill in game, an engineer has equally powerful skills, as it can survive the SNB.

That said, I'd really like to see more from Nadion. It's supposed to reduce power use from all systems, but as weapons are the only things that actually draw power... It's sort of wasted on anything but a high sustained energy damage build... :/
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 735
# 192
09-03-2012, 01:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
If you really want to try the Tac Sci DPS wizard waste $ on the Fleet 16k hull BoP.
Can't wait to face these in my tric bomber... My HYT3 with tac buffs and 4 TDC consoles should be able to one-pop these quite reliably. And unlike the Norgh, my Defiant/AE has enough HP to avoid popping myself in the process!

(and fired at .0 range, it's a insta-gib that only a GW/Tykens can prevent!)
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 346
# 193
09-03-2012, 02:55 AM
I don't even really understand where all this Tac jealousy comes from.

Does Dassem only fly Sci Captains and only has a "grass greener on the other side" perspective on Tac?
That's the only way I can explain this whole "Tac Captains are teh bestest in everythang!" thing.
I'd never even consider replacing my Sci/SV with a Tac/SV and I've deleted my Tac/BoP to make a Sci/BoP instead.
Hell, the only reason my Sci/scort isn't outperforming my Tac/scort in all respects is the lack of BOFF training options; certainly not the abilities.


By the way, for a thread on Captain abilities, they certainly haven't been given center stage.
There's been more derail about unrelated stuff than actual talk about them.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,121
# 194
09-03-2012, 03:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by quiscustodiet View Post
I don't even really understand where all this Tac jealousy comes from.
[...]
It comes from the fact that Tactical captains are the "Easy" level game in space combat in STO. Almost every ship becomes more effective at carrying out missions with a Tac in the captain's chair.

That imbalance does not stem from Engineers or Science captains being particularily inferior, though, but from the mission design, both in PvP and PvE. Everything that really counts is DPS, and guess what captain class is best at boosting effective DPS. (Capture And Hold PvP is potentially an exception, but it suffers from the points being too close to each other to really make that count.)

With more scenarios in PvP, with less "kill everything fast" missions in PvE, there would not really be an imbalance, I think - the problem pointed at in the thread title being the one exception.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 735
# 195
09-03-2012, 03:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by quiscustodiet View Post
I don't even really understand where all this Tac jealousy comes from.

Does Dassem only fly Sci Captains and only has a "grass greener on the other side" perspective on Tac?
That's the only way I can explain this whole "Tac Captains are teh bestest in everythang!" thing.
I'd never even consider replacing my Sci/SV with a Tac/SV and I've deleted my Tac/BoP to make a Sci/BoP instead.
the only reason my Sci/scort isn't outperforming my Tac/scort in all respects is the lack of BOFF training options; certainly not the abilities.


By the way, for a thread on Captain abilities, they certainly haven't been given center stage.
There's been more derail about unrelated stuff than actual talk about them.
Heh, my first year of PvPing I flew mostly sci, but for the last 1.5 years I'vr flown tac 99% of the time. I take my one of my sci out for a try every now and then, but am always disappointed. As a result, I've kept rolling tac toons, and now have 7 of them that are to be seen in PvP frequently. (Dee, Felicitas, That Guy, Icarium, Zoidberg, Someone, Gornivor)

However, as I like as much variation as possible, I'd like to be able to take a different class out for a spin now and then, without feeling like i'm gimping myself.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 735
# 196
09-03-2012, 03:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
It comes from the fact that Tactical captains are the "Easy" level game in space combat in STO. Almost every ship becomes more effective at carrying out missions with a Tac in the captain's chair.

That imbalance does not stem from Engineers or Science captains being particularily inferior, though, but from the mission design, both in PvP and PvE. Everything that really counts is DPS, and guess what captain class is best at boosting effective DPS. (Capture And Hold PvP is potentially an exception, but it suffers from the points being too close to each other to really make that count.)

With more scenarios in PvP, with less "kill everything fast" missions in PvE, there would not really be an imbalance, I think - the problem pointed at in the thread title being the one exception.
For once, you are spot on!

The devs have tried adressing this in PvE a bit, by introducing healing in the new Fleet Actions, but sci is still a sad and sorry chapter.

For Sci however, I think the problem is double. Sci does bad because missions are not made for it, and missions are not made for it because the sorry state of sci abilities makes it too difficult.

For PvE, however, this could be remedied by removing the NPC resist/immunity to SS and VM. (Imagine, all the hard enemies have immunity to VM... :p ) In the old days, with a dedicated sci build, I could be someone in PvE in a sciship.

With PvP in mind, It may also be an idea to have a look at the shared CD for some of the sci powers. Removing shared CD of GW and Tykens would help (you can't have two good versions up at the same time anyway) Buffing the heck out of Tachyon and CPB would also help alot.
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# 197
09-03-2012, 07:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
1st, I agree about Engineer. Imo, defenses have been boosted far too much while offesive firepower has hardly been boosted (w/the exception of tet glider and 5 Tac Console Escorts). The easiest solution to this to me is to raise max level again for weapons and boost Weapon systems buffer power limit. There's so many ways to gain power anymore (too many imo) there's not nearly the power mgt benefit there used to be, a niche of Engineers. The increase buffer power would be a way to for those abilities to shine a bit again.

I don't agree w/the Tac Sci DPS wizard analogy. This is a space game not a fantasy game. That said traditionally "DPS wizards" have the lowest defenses and hps of all. Sci Boats are hardly that. If you really want to try the Tac Sci DPS wizard waste $ on the Fleet 16k hull BoP.

The issue isn't the target regarding the rough build I mentioned. The stacking Tyken's proc is AoE likely to catch some of the target's allies. For any target it's only a matter of time before they have zero power to all systems. I don't see an issue w/a Tac boff torp volley or 2 or BO or 2 killing a boat w/o shields and zero movement.

The "potential" I implied deals w/the Tac Sci being subjected to like disabling abilities and/or having a more limited defense capability than a Sci Sci and not having repair support from others while under focus fire.
They could always scale back the power of doffs, and reiterate the importance of the original boff skills, this would do alot actually to bringing back the power of the engineer.

Except this IS a fantasy game. It's science fantasy. It uses the exact same paradigms already. So Tac Sci = DPS Wizard applies perfectly. Also, due to how Defense, and rotating your ships to fresh shield facings work, tac sci is arguably less durable than a tac scort. While you have more shield points, your agility is lower, leaving you more reliant on doubling up on things like TSS2 in order to maintain durability cycles that are comparable.

"Then you should play a bop!" no. I shouldn't have to play KDF just to play One Combo. That is so 1999 that I can't believe I just read that suggestion.

And the tac sci does have less defensive options than the Sci Sci. Infact much like the Curse/Debuff Wizards in a few other games, sci sci in this has access to things exclusively that boost it's damage resistance making it less susceptible to being debuffed into oblivion.

For all the people complaining about Tac Sci... do you want to know the best way to completely hose one? Hands down Every Time? Sub Nuke, TBR repels, A Viral Matrix, or some TR3s (or all of the above). The Sci ship has access to far less Hold Breaks than does an Escort, is far less mobile, and has a worse inertia score. Meaning that Debuffs and Crowd Control Maul it.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,671
# 198
09-03-2012, 07:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dassemsto View Post
Funny you should mention SNB and engineers in the same paragraph. Engineers are the class that is most resiliant to just that! You SNB him when he's fully boff-buffed with HE, EPtoS, TSS etc, and he just slaps down RSF and/or MW.

G&F has also mentioned how good being a sci in a drain build is, how it is better for a sci than a tac just because of SNB. This is basically the only thing a sci/sci does better than a tac/sci, and the only thing a sci/sci can do well...unless... the target is an engineer. He has spare heals to recover his resists, EPS-transfer will restore his power, and MW will restore downed subsystems. (at least it used to afai remember?)

So by the statement that SNB is the most powerful skill in game, an engineer has equally powerful skills, as it can survive the SNB.

That said, I'd really like to see more from Nadion. It's supposed to reduce power use from all systems, but as weapons are the only things that actually draw power... It's sort of wasted on anything but a high sustained energy damage build... :/
not sure what we are disagreeing on? The eng has the best chances of surviving anything since he is the only one with selft heals as cpt powers. So he can not respawn and watch the timers in PvE run out, or wait for another attack run in pvp.

on a sidenote: GTFO is still the best response to drain builds, good luck running in a eng/carrier or eng/cruiser. Once more escorts eat the cake here.

Besides EPS not working agains Powerdrains. My point still stands. The best and eng can do with eps is give it to a tac. The kill count at the end of a match will most likely still be the result of well timed subnuc. Not MW, Nadeon, F@W.... let alone Aceton Beam, Boarding Party, DEM (unless used by tac).....
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# 199
09-03-2012, 07:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dassemsto View Post
Funny you should mention SNB and engineers in the same paragraph. Engineers are the class that is most resiliant to just that! You SNB him when he's fully boff-buffed with HE, EPtoS, TSS etc, and he just slaps down RSF and/or MW.

G&F has also mentioned how good being a sci in a drain build is, how it is better for a sci than a tac just because of SNB. This is basically the only thing a sci/sci does better than a tac/sci, and the only thing a sci/sci can do well...unless... the target is an engineer. He has spare heals to recover his resists, EPS-transfer will restore his power, and MW will restore downed subsystems. (at least it used to afai remember?)

So by the statement that SNB is the most powerful skill in game, an engineer has equally powerful skills, as it can survive the SNB.

That said, I'd really like to see more from Nadion. It's supposed to reduce power use from all systems, but as weapons are the only things that actually draw power... It's sort of wasted on anything but a high sustained energy damage build... :/
And yet, you can still counter SNB without those things. On a Softer level yes, but you still can. It's called get nuked, pop a Shield Battery, and then a transfer shield strength 2, or possibly pop a Brace for impact and watch your poor man RSP work wonders. Or you can carry RSP on your ship, giving you a 9 second cushion to get an EPTS ready again.

Sci sci is also better for a Repulsion build if you are going straight on repel. Because a tacs damage output while doing so is going to be nil compared to the ability to rob someone of their defenses completely.

The problem is overall that the Debuff aspects are not working correctly in this game. Not that Tacs are too good at damage. Remember when CPB and Tachyon didn't have Resistance? There was no point what so ever in taking a Tac Escort on a team, when it was costing you more Sci peen. Especially since Torp Spread is still a good solid Burst Damage ability, and it's an AOE. A Tac Sci, was even more of a joke in that regards since the best sci powers did not synergise with tac abilities in any capacity, and the non best abilities, like FBP didn't either. So tacs, in Escorts were useless by comparison, and tac sci even doubly so.

The thing is the ONLY thing eng skills allow you to do is survive. There are so many ways to do that now, thanks to Doffemon that particular niche is pointless when what you really need is Moar DPS or Moar Debuff. The eng captaincy really does not help you "heal better" anymore because everyone has so many fall back options that it's sad. And their "Fleet Skill" is a complete farce since it adds only a weak ass +30, to HDR. The Sci has 3 incredibly useful Captain abilities as it stands right now.
1 Sub Nuke, 2 Sci Fleet, and 3 Sensor Scan.
And their 4th is still circumstantially useful.

Tacs can't say that. They have exactly two really useful skills. APA and GDF. Mind you they are powerful tricks indeed.
Tac Fleet is circumstantially useful. (great for popping it when an enemy is near death and being focus fired)
But Tac Initiative, and FOMM? Are complete Bupkiss. the former being circumstantially useful, when you are needing to extend your highest level dps skills damage windows. The latter never being useful.

Engineers have exactly 2 useful skills. Rotate Shield Frequency, and EPS Power Transfer, the latter is only becoming circumstantially useful however, due to the fact that Maco gives power, as does Leech, and E Siphon works. The latter, is only really useful on energy dependent damage dealing, which is again, not what sci ships are good at anyway.

Nadion, and MW both are a farce.

Eng sci in this game, has always been on at best shaky ground outside of a Healer (aka the Cleanser wizard/Priest) but now? You might as well not even bother.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dassemsto View Post
For once, you are spot on!

The devs have tried adressing this in PvE a bit, by introducing healing in the new Fleet Actions, but sci is still a sad and sorry chapter.

For Sci however, I think the problem is double. Sci does bad because missions are not made for it, and missions are not made for it because the sorry state of sci abilities makes it too difficult.

For PvE, however, this could be remedied by removing the NPC resist/immunity to SS and VM. (Imagine, all the hard enemies have immunity to VM... :p ) In the old days, with a dedicated sci build, I could be someone in PvE in a sciship.

With PvP in mind, It may also be an idea to have a look at the shared CD for some of the sci powers. Removing shared CD of GW and Tykens would help (you can't have two good versions up at the same time anyway) Buffing the heck out of Tachyon and CPB would also help alot.
Sci does bad in pve, because like the average puggee, npcs don't use buffs. And their shield #s are so Insane that shield strip does not work. TR and drain works pretty well in pve, as does TBR repulsions (works 100 percent of the time the way you planned it in pve) which for stuff like KA, and Cure is good. But overall? again npcs don't use buffs. Because Cryptic fails at life in game design terms.

I play, Tac, Sci and Eng. And out of the three right now the only one you never see me really touch is my Eng. Infact I dislike the Eng's competency right now so much I am most likely never rolling another Engineer. I have 3 sci toons. and 3 tacs.

Also giving sci a "Sci pattern alpha" would be a terrible idea unless you removed some of their Durability Boosters. Giving sci access to Tac Sci damage dealing capability would render Tac Sci back to useless land just like removing tac boosted sci skills would unless you didn't add to Particle Gens with it. Instead of Particle gens Sci pattern alpha would have to add to Flow Capacitors, Gravitons, Decompiler and Countermeasures.
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Join Date: Jun 2012
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# 200
09-03-2012, 09:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostyandfrosty View Post
...
I remember when I could scramble a cube and make it eat the little borgs for lunch...

I remember a GW that sucked the way it should... when a good sci could wipe a whole megamob in old infected... (heck, this vid may have been partially responsible for the nerf... Notice take #3, where we got both cubes and partially ripped the shields off the tac cube.)

I remember VM locking down that single Tac Cube for long periods of time.

I remember repulsing that Tac Cube into the gate to give it a real whack with it's warp core explosion.

I remember Tractoring or CPBing Donatra to prevent her from cloaking.

I remember... the days when a sci/sci could still hold his own...

And every time we sci/sci players found a way of being useful, the nerf was immediately to follow. "NO! Only Tac/Escorts should be able to kill something fast! Scis have no business being effective!"
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