Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 35
# 41 an intriguing question...
08-23-2012, 03:12 PM
that got me thinking - I've got a variety of responses, but since everyone seems to be hung up on the vote-kick system, let me offer an alternative and see what people think (assuming anyone's still reading the thread)

#1 - a vote/leave system - ditch the leaver penalty, and instead, institute a vote leave system, wherein players can start a vote to voluntarily leave the instance if they can get a majority vote (3/5) - this way, if at least 3 of the players can recognize that there's some jerk just trying to osmosis mission rewards, they can all vote to leave without suffering the leaver penalty - this is followed by...

#2 - a post/mission vote/contribution system - at the end of a mission (either by leave or by completion or by failure) each player gets a vote pop-up - this includes two votes - one for *positive* feedback, one for negative feedback - each person gets one vote - you can vote for any player in the instance (including yourself) or vote for a sixth "no-one".

**EDIT**I tried to include a crude visual example, but apparently this text editor doesn't keep spacing information.../sigh**

each person gets one positive vote to assign, AND one negative vote to assign - you *can* vote for yourself if you want

the general idea is as follows - if EVERYONE contributes reasonably, everyone puts in one positive vote for themselves, and one negative vote each for "no-one" - everyone walks out with one positive point - everyone's happy

or, and this happens sometimes, one person proves to be really on top of things (good team coordinator with positive attitude, or a sci captain that puts down a key GW that saves the optional, so on and so forth) can get multiple positive votes from other players

now, of course, some people can be jerks and will put in a negative vote for whatever person they didn't seem to like for whatever stupid reason they come up with - but, as the votes will be much like a review system, getting stuck with a coupla jerks will still amount to very little over time

now, if there's ONE or TWO guys that really douche up the whole encounter (like some guy hanging out at the spawn point) EVERYONE puts in a negative vote for that a-hole (except probably the guy himself) - guy walks out at best with 1 positive (from himself) and 4 negs, does it next game, gets it again, and again...so on and so forth - and racks up a massive negative vote pile

now, make a person's fleet action rating (career positive vs negative votes) visible to other players (either at start of mission, or even better, perhaps expand the que system to make individually qued people and their ratings visible) at some point

now, I haven't yet come up with a way to reward the positive/negative vote tally's...but, you could tie a vote kick, or a mission timer penalty, or mission rewards, somehow tied to the positive/negative votes

of course, there's still *some* degree of abuse possible, but by spreading out the abuse over multiple people and multiple occasions, I like to think it'd be minimized

of course, any adjustments made to vote/kick like systems could, I feel, really benefit from a serious overhaul of the stf missions themselves, but that's another post...
There is no correct resolution; it's a test of character.
James T. Kirk

Last edited by kermit1013; 08-23-2012 at 03:54 PM.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 348
# 42
08-23-2012, 03:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddesjardins View Post
Simple Solution:
  • Identify afk by a percentage of damage delivered and heals given. Both are trackable values in ACT, so I would assume the devs would see this as well. <10%, is considerd afk.
.
sorry dont understand exactly what you mean with 10%.
10% dmg from them complete mission?

i will say how it works easyer amd sorry for my bad english but i hope anyone understand what i willl mean.

stf example.

1. first ad a new bar to ea player who joins.
this bar is clean at the begin of the mission to any player and fills up in 5% steps with a color.

the bar shows the percent dmg done in the mission and need exactly 1,4mio dmg point in total to fill up to 100%
if a player have reach 100% it switch to complete green.

ONLY players with have done the min of importend dmg what shows this bar in a stf space mission get the option on for loot in the mission.

the only point to hack/cheat this system is kithomer space a afk player flys to a generator what is undestroable and start autoattak and fill up his bar for free with the 1,4 mio dmg in ~2min then go afk

so its importend that only dmg will be countet on destroyable targets.

for carriers importend pets dmg will not counted that nobody comes o the idea to start pets the attak randomly nonsens an fill up the bar for free.

i have try it out its very easy to reach the 1,4 mio dmg in total for any ship also carrier with only 6 weapons.

this system will have alot of interesting ingame option:

examples:

first of all anyone will try to get the bar full to the end and will have to work in the mission.

anyone see for himself and the complettly team see it perm how good players work on the mission so nobody must waste him time with perm camera scrolling to check if others do there job.

lets say in the team is a player who have afther 5 min still 0% anyone in the team can ask him what is his prob or what is running wrong it is now visible thats the nice think so nobody must flame aginst anyone for unknown reason what happend at moment also sometimes.

if a afkler loot leeecher pug whatever goes first time in and see what happend to him and anyone tell him that leeching end now, he have to work for loot then he will decide next time to waste 15-30 min in a stf for 100% no loot again.

so with that system stfs will work much better anyone see perm his mission performance and the team to.
thats the only real way in my mind do bring the most afk leechers away from stfs.

and lets say a team have done it with 3 players and sucess the mission 2 afk players stay there in the mission so the 3 players get the loot from the afk players to so the 2200 dil from the afk players will be splittet to the 3 players what have done the mission so they get add reward for have afk players in there mission.

a nice think for me with this system will be:

it happend to me many times i go into kithomer space afther cube is dead nobody will go protect vortex coz he mean he is a fast structure destroyer so.... chaos and optional fails coz wrong player protect vortex.

with my system afther cube is dead any player reach any % lets say player 1+2 20% player 3 10% and player 4+5 5% ea so automaticly player 4+5 can fly to vortex for protect it they deal low dmg so no good option to send them for fast structure destroying, so optional will have a high sucess chance. xD

and this system can be added into ground missions to only the total dmg have to been changed.

so lets say 40k dmg for a ground mission what is also very easy to reach and.....^^

Last edited by lostmoony; 08-23-2012 at 04:05 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,145
# 43
08-23-2012, 04:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostmoony View Post
sorry dont understand exactly what you mean with 10%.
10% dmg from them complete mission?
What I propose is a simple method of determining an AFK player - it would work like this:
  • If the players total damage is <10% of the groups total, the system would assign a value of +1
  • IF his total heals are <10% of the groups total, then the systems would assign him a value of +1
  • IF the AFK total is +2, then he is considered AFK in the game.

Simple yes/no function: if he does not damage but heals, he's a player (+0). If he does damage, but doesn't heal, he's still a player (+0). If he doesn't do either - he's AFK (+2).

The 10% level is arbitrary on my part, but given some roles in STF's - baiting spheres for example and drawing them away - it is inconceivable that a fully functional player might achieve a very low score on either heals or damage. Even in those conditions it would still be seen as a active player. To achieve the low 10% - you literally have to do nothing.

Admiral Thrax

Last edited by ddesjardins; 08-23-2012 at 04:11 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 44
08-23-2012, 04:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kermit1013 View Post
#1 - a vote/leave system - ditch the leaver penalty, and instead, institute a vote leave system, wherein players can start a vote to voluntarily leave the instance if they can get a majority vote (3/5) - this way, if at least 3 of the players can recognize that there's some jerk just trying to osmosis mission rewards, they can all vote to leave without suffering the leaver penalty - this is followed by...
This is the best idea i've seen here so far.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 306
# 45
08-23-2012, 04:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
This is the best idea i've seen here so far.
Seconded. Good idea.

I also like the no-grouping-with-people-on-ignore-list suggestion, too.
Star Trek: Online - Now with 100% more dinosaurs!!
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 321
# 46
08-23-2012, 04:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddesjardins View Post
What I propose is a simple method of determining an AFK player - it would work like this:
  • If the players total damage is <10% of the groups total, the system would assign a value of +1
  • IF his total heals are <10% of the groups total, then the systems would assign him a value of +1
  • IF the AFK total is +2, then he is considered AFK in the game.

Simple yes/no function: if he does not damage but heals, he's a player (+1). If he does damage, but doesn't heal, he's still a player (+1). If he doesn't do either - he's AFK.

The 10% level is arbitrary on my part, but given some roles in STF's - baiting spheres for example and drawing them away - it is inconceivable that a fully functional player might achieve a very low score on either heals or damage. Even in those conditions it would still be seen as a active player. To achieve the low 10% - you literally have to do nothing.

Admiral Thrax
Actually I think it would be possible for someone active to do less than 10% of the group's damage / healing in an STF.

If you're on KA and spend most of your time probe bashing (which is required to complete the mission, don't forget) and miss out on most of the big, fat targets with six and seven figure HP totals, I would think it very possible that you'd end up below 10% even though you've been active and played just fine. And you wouldn't do any healing in that role, either. Anyone combat parsed a KA recently, who could shed some light on what numbers probe guardians get?

Also, if you put a mediocre player in into a group with 4 good ones, they could just not keep up. I'm sure 'l2p' will be trotted out as a response there, but I don't think a system that denies players who are trying their reward will get them to up their game so much as it will get them to stop doing group missions, and then leave the game. Which is totally what STO needs right now.

It's hard to find a number that's both low enough for people who active to always get it and not so low that someone can get it with about 2 minutes of effort.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 348
# 47
08-23-2012, 04:24 PM
there are some prob on the vote leave system to, first of all
not all players have unlimited gametime, lets say i run for optional only like alot others i see it will fail vote leave i do it perm, so alot players will never see the end of the mission and not every player have the time to go into 20 stf only to finishing one.

spezialy newbies not interested on the optional

only on the mainpart is importend to get the tech......

they will never see it.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 35
# 48
08-23-2012, 05:07 PM
sorry mooney, I had a bit of a time trying to sort out what you were saying, but if I read it correctly, let me see if I got it right...

not all players have unlimited game time - given - I only get to play 2-3 hours a night, and I spend an annoying portion of that doing the tour, or trying to farm some dilithium for that stupid tribble mission I rather shortsightedly set my fleet on...

#2 - imagine you're trying for the optional, but like the members on your team, you see you won't get it - response, I've never understood the folks that bail when they don't get the optional - I really don't - I get that they want to maximize their time/reward, but, there are still reasonable rewards for mission completion. If your cost/benefit for running stf's and fleet missions is to only do them if you can get maximum reward, it's time to stop pugging (which is what the vote to leave system is mostly in place for) and start running with pre-mades - expecting pugs to pick up optional every time seems...unreasonable

still, even given only settling for getting the optional, the vote to leave system will actually do you far better than any vote to kick system I can imagine

in this way, you lose less time - period - without a "leaver penalty" if you see that you can't complete the optional that you have your heart set on, you vote to leave - if you can convince the other people in your mission to leave with you, you can restart another mission without any loss of time

now, if you *can't* convince everyone to leave because *they* aren't convinced that they HAVE to lose the optional, or they don't care if they lose the optional, and you decide to leave, then yes, you'll take the leaver penalty, and quite possibly run the risk of getting several negative votes (i haven't actually addressed what would happen to the voting system if someone bails on the instance...that's a good question) but I don't currently have an answer that accommodates both people who want to play STF's successfully, and people who ONLY consider making the optional successful

in some ways, I think it might be better to re-divide the stf's into normal (with weaker borg and NO optional objective) Advanced (with stronger Borg and optional) and elite (make optional objective and rewards MANDATORY for mission completion) - maybe that would satisfy the folks that demand optional completion and nothing less - I dunno

so yes, if I understood your post correctly, you're right, the folks that won't play STF unless they're confident they can make the optional WILL probably get screwed somewhat - again, I think a better solution for that particular problem revolves not around the vote to leave system, but around the reward/design system in the STF's themselves (and the fleet missions, which this could also work for)
There is no correct resolution; it's a test of character.
James T. Kirk
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,145
# 49
08-23-2012, 05:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skhc View Post
Actually I think it would be possible for someone active to do less than 10% of the group's damage / healing in an STF.

If you're on KA and spend most of your time probe bashing (which is required to complete the mission, don't forget) and miss out on most of the big, fat targets with six and seven figure HP totals, I would think it very possible that you'd end up below 10% even though you've been active and played just fine. And you wouldn't do any healing in that role, either. Anyone combat parsed a KA recently, who could shed some light on what numbers probe guardians get?
Been there, parsed that. Even on probes exclusively, you'll end up doing at least 15% of the total. Again though the 10% idea is arbitrary. It could be adjusted for a base that reflects a better percentage. Heck we could even add a random number calculation so you couldn't predict the exact number to get around the AFK ranking (10.3, 10.5 etc)

Just a thought

Admiral Thrax
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 688
# 50
08-23-2012, 07:06 PM
AFKers can be identified by damage dealt or healing done. Rather than scaling the reward by damage dealt. While it's not fair to use a scaling reward system where healing science officers are penalized, you can calculate a minimum percentage of the total damage dealt by the team that anyone has to match to get any reward at all. May not even need to be 10 percent. Afterall, AFKers are generally sitting outside of combat, not shooting or taking any damage.

Alternatively, AFKing can be identified by tracking time-in-Red Alert status. Either a fixed percentage of time spent in a map you'd have to match (though that could cause trouble with PvE groups that take their time explaining tactics, or waiting for ensign Joe to come back from doing battle with the porcelain dragon), or be within a certain range of the average time-in-Red Alert for all your team members for that session. Of course this one leaves the option for the player in question to just Leroy Jenkins into the nearest mob of enemies and kill himself, while screwing things up further for his teammates.

So then there's damage-dealt to death ratio to cover that last one. Maybe use all of the above. Set off any of those alarm bells, and you leave empty handed.

Those are all generic solutions, though. Some events could do with more tailor-made solutions. PvP probably could stand to reward based on performance. (Needs to track healing of others as rating higher than healing oneself, to keep science ships in the game. Currently the system makes no distinction, and all too often cruisers dominate both categories.)

Some of the fleet events could do with a scoreboard as well. The most draconian option would replace individual rewards with a team reward, that's portioned at the end based on contribution. Won't work for every map, but for instance the starbase incursion map it could work for. Though admittedly, it's already pretty hard to get people to stick to and defend their chosen/assigned 'zones', that'd probably not get any easier with additional pressure to score kills.

I don't know... I've thusfar always been against vote-kicking given the potential of abuse. Then again, we see far more idlers now than I imagine we'd ever see abuse of vote-kicks. And the worst damage can probably be avoided by having a vote-kick point of no return - after ten minutes on a map together, no one's kicking anyone, so learn to size each other up quickly.
Reave
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