Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 668
# 381
08-27-2012, 03:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew486dx View Post
But as it's already been stated, generally, you expend a lot more Fleet Credits buying the DOFFs than you gain back from contributing them.

Random White Fleet DOFF = 500 Fleet Credits
Contributing a White DOFF to most projects = 150 Fleet Credits.

That's -350 Fleet Credits per DOFF you can contribute.
A complete 500 Fleet Credit loss on any random DOFFs, not what you needed at that given moment. Or if it's possible for civs to spawn from random boxes, even more useless for the most part.
That is a valid point... however I think that is still a good enough return that people wouldn't need to grind nearly as much.

Lets be honest the point of the Bases is a time sink... its a way for them to remove EC out of the system... Remove Dilithium out of the system... Create commodity items that create value in game for the currencies they intend to reduce. There by increasing the number of transactions on the ones they make $$$ from. Look at the dilithium exchange... I would say they have achieved that and are likely raking in the $$$.

If you save in this case 3/4 of the cost of the fleet currency they intend you to grind in order to reduce those other currencies, it breaks there system.

In a lot of ways I wish they would have just left the doff option of the star bases all together. I understand why they can't let people use them for projects its counter productive to what they hope to achieve. However its really confusing for people that would assume those doffs could be used that way....

Really if they where going to add fleet doffs... then they should have been NEW doffs tailored to fleet base grinding. Perhaps a doff that increased Fleet Mark Drops by X percent. Or just made them a random style grab bag with a higher chance to drop some of the rare purple doffs. (at the right tier... and of course make them all bind on pickup)
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 731
# 382
08-27-2012, 07:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
Well we were given something we should have never seen in game, a free infinite doff generator. It's like christmas but every day. It can't last long in a F2P game. You can discuss on the amount of advantages you can get for free in game but you can't ask for everything to be free. They made a huge mistake, the white doffs were 200 times too cheap or so, if we take a look at our leaderboards. I know people can think it's unfair if the free candies for everyone are removed but I'm sure they did this to preserve their revenue on doff packs.

The fact is that this feature was a huge mistake (for the revenue and for the challenges we have in game), and the temporaty patch is a disaster, but it was an emergency solution to this first huge mistake. I really hope that next time, they consider the facts when they want to please us, so that all this frustration can be avoided. I prefer seeing a useless feature they make cheaper after some time than the contrary, otherwise, it leads to many abuses - and such abuses still exists in game with the grinder/degrinder. The infinite doff generator still exists for those who know how to trick the system, it just takes more time.

And the fact is that there is no fun in a game where you can have everything right away without any effort or challenge.

Edit: The best and most friendly solution would be: make all the current doffs usable in the SB. Raise the price of every fleet doff x200 or 300 (purples x1000 or more). With this system, people can get some more doffs each week (not much but some), and they can farm fleetmarks like mad if they want a bit more. Those who bought some doffs on the exchange can use them, and the candy still exists but it's much harder to get.
This reminds me of Catch-22's Milo Minderbinder who made a profit by selling below the cost he paid. Do you care to enlighten us how we can generate infinite doffs if we were to pay 500 Fleet Credits and only get 150 Fleet Credits back when we use them in a project? That sounds like we're losing 350 credits *per duty officer* -- which would clearly be unsustainable unless you're trying to loop some other form of currency in there. You suggest raising the prices by several orders of magnitude -- would you honestly spend 100,000 of your fleet credits for a random common duty officer?.

Given enough time, we can generate unlimited doffs via recruitment, or generate unlimited fleet marks via running events, or unlimited dilithium from doing dailies and STFs?

Edit: Read a bit farther and saw
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
Let me explain you simple maths with simple words then.

Grind fleetmarks. Turn them into a huge amount of fleet credits with some special projects. Let's say colonists, since we want a cheap one. Reach 1 or 2M of fleet credits. A lot of people already have this. Buy 4000 white doffs with that. It's not infinite, but that's insane. And it's just one month of grinding. Which means 133 doffs a day. This is too much. The academy can offer 5-6 doffs a day (roughtly). Any dev allowing such an imbalance in his game isn't serious.
1 million fleet credits would require 20,000 fleet marks. Let's admit that's a significant amount of marks. That would fill the mark requirement on 33.3 colonist special projects -- but would also require over 4125 colonists to complete. I suppose one could get around this by fleet-hopping volunteering to donate fleet marks, possibly for energy credits.

Keep in mind: white fleet doffs cost 500 credits. And you get 50 credits per fleet mark. Trading 10 FM for one white doff is reasonable, trading 200+ FM for a single random white doff is not. Each project can run dozens to hundreds of white duty officers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew486dx View Post
But as it's already been stated, generally, you expend a lot more Fleet Credits buying the DOFFs than you gain back from contributing them.

Random White Fleet DOFF = 500 Fleet Credits
Contributing a White DOFF to most projects = 150 Fleet Credits.

That's -350 Fleet Credits per DOFF you can contribute.
A complete 500 Fleet Credit loss on any random DOFFs, not what you needed at that given moment. Or if it's possible for civs to spawn from random boxes, even more useless for the most part.
Correct, we're not getting *more* fleet credits out of the system -- we're losing hundreds of available fleet credits with every fleet doff we purchase and (theoretically) would contribute. And actually it's actually worse for us than a net loss of 350 fleet credits if we were to get some civilian doffs that no active project seems to need. This is extremely common with the doff exchange projects.
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Last edited by phyrexianhero; 08-27-2012 at 08:40 AM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,703
# 383
08-27-2012, 07:29 AM
to the OP if you burn your in-game currencies by using them: yes they are.
If you expect something useful to come out of them, no they aren't; buy some keys and lockboxes for that
Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 425
# 384
08-27-2012, 08:32 AM
So, been a while since I logged into the game (not any fun any more so I don't see a reason), got plenty of other games I'd much rather play (including ones that require a monthly sub) but still feel the need to check in here from time to time just to keep track on how much they are destroying this game (sad since I was stupid enough to purchase a LTS).

My only question at this time is, has the exchange been totally infiltrated by these useless DOFFs now?
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 158
# 385
08-27-2012, 08:33 AM
Has anyone from PWE come forward yet and said anything about this issue?
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 386
08-27-2012, 08:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by syberghost View Post
Since contributing DOFFs to starbase projects awards Fleet Credit, and borticus said this:

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...1&postcount=36

...where do you get your statement, that seems to be in direct contradiction to that of the developer?
His statement doesn't contradict anything I am saying. How do you get to that conclusion?

He says they fleet doffs were never intended to be a way to earn fleet credits. Fine. I am not saying they ever were intended as a way to earn fleet credits. Guess what? You didn't earn fleet credits in the old system. You lost fleet credits. The Doff vendor charged you 500 fleet creds for a random doff that might or might not further your project. If you got one that did help the project, you only "earn" a payback of (I think) 150 fleet credits. Nothing actually earned. Net loss of 350 on just that one Doff. And when you factor in that maybe one out of every 10, or 20, or X is actually useful to a project, its a hugh fleet credit burner.

And seriously man - why do you think they would put a Doff vendor on your starbase that just happens to sell random whites at completed tier 1, greens at completed tier II, etc etc if it wasn't intended as a way to help people in small fleets have access to something that can help advance the projects while simultaneously burn off their huge surplus of useless fleet credits?
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 425
# 387
08-27-2012, 08:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blitzsth View Post
Has anyone from PWE come forward yet and said anything about this issue?
Yup, it has been stated that it is "working as intended". As soon as that statement was made many protests were made in that same thread. The Dev in question replied later in the thread but completely ignored that issue and all the complaints about it "working as intended" and tried to turn the discussion in a different direction.

From what I can tell, "working as intended" is the "polite" way of them saying "We don't give a ***** about our players or what they think and, since this item doesn't net us any money we have no intention of spending any time looking into it, we would rather spend our precious time creating more overpriced, underperforming, c-store items"

Maybe the Devs can prove me wrong, but based on their history I'm not holding my breath.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 63
# 388
08-27-2012, 09:59 AM
all i can say is now the change my sb come to a stop i need 60 white duff for tier 3 millitary i spent past 3 days trying to get some from the sta non at all sb duff suply pointless might as well remove him from game no need for him now and back to tons of fleet cred and zip to spend it on

but the big problem with trying to get duffs from sta is the stupid cool down 24 to 48 hours ?!?!?!?!? ok so at what point do i just say f this and move on to other games ???

the exchange if filled with pointless useless no need duffs ????

i also bord running from fsb to sta to fsb trying to get a duff that i can use
( wast of dill too)


i also now stopd playing as much as nothing to do now sb stoped and my fleet of 250 have also stop spending money and few stoped playing as no longer can move on with sb


and people iv seen saying expolit ok were u lose fleet cred buying the duffs and using them on sb ?? non expolit there

u trash the duffs u got 75 dill and little cxp ok not realy a expolit but ok oh wait ur limited to 8k dill refining ( ok still see no expolite) no different to doing a few elite stfs and trashing chips???

the cxp so little it even pointless to trash duffs anyways!

the duffs cost 500 fc u spend 100k on 200 duffs and lucky to get 20 that usefull and u get back 150 per not realy a money maker isit

but if u have brains u can make more dill and zen for nothing out the dill exchange if u play it rite ???? i ran 2 elite stfs and use that dill and turnd it in to 8k zen and 500k dill just playing the dill exchange so y moan about trashing duffs for pence when i make tons off the dill exchnage???? from not alot????

so now im bord and now playing bsgo and other games due to it takes too stupidly long to get duffs now ( but way to easy to get marks ) with the allready stupidly long time out on sb jobs
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 132
# 389
08-27-2012, 11:09 AM
The premise that purchasing Fleet DOFFs with Fleet Credits is some sort of exploitive way of EARNING Fleet Marks OR Fleet Credits is absurd. Even if we were to accept this as fact (albeit one contradicted by all available evidence), the most elementry solution would have been to raise the prices of said DOFFs.

What is more... it was the DEVs whom placed this option in our hands. they designed it. They asigned the values. How could they not see this comming?

I'm frankly more disturbed by this latest statement then I was with the nerfing of the DOFFs in the first place.

If there was an exploit going on, well, you have closed the loop now. Tell us what it was so that we can all perhaps get behind you. These "cryptic" explanations, devoid of any actual substance, only lend to further agrivation of an already jittery community.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 731
# 390
08-27-2012, 11:37 AM
If one were to take Borticus's comment from the other week about not earning [more] fleet credits via fleet doffs that were purchased with fleet credits, this could be resolved by getting tech so that fleet doffs do not give fleet credits but could be contributed to projects. Since devs do not like solutions that require new techs, the alternative was to have them cost more than you'd get so it wouldn't be profitable -- but this is already the case. Even if you *only* got doffs useful for projects, you'd be losing a net 350 Fleet Credits.

I really don't understand what the logic was -- the fleet doffs would ideally work the same as fleet mark boosts. With the latter, you need 15000 Fleet Credits to purchase a 100 mark boost. Once you've earned 500 more marks (and thus gotten your bonus 100 marks), you could donate them to the starbase. Those 100 bonus marks would net you 5000 Fleet Credits -- you're still taking a net loss of 10,000 Fleet Credits but its:
1) a way to spend fleet credits
2) help you make progress on starbase

If #1 isn't done, it becomes a rather useless currency. If #2 isn't done, it makes people upset and likely to not continue either that aspect of STO that they dedicated an entire season to.
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