Career Officer
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# 471
08-30-2012, 11:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by phyrexianhero View Post
The issue was that downgrading duty officers provided more dilithium than you would otherwise have.
If that were true they would have simply rationalized the yield rather than globally nerf it.

You're expending a lot of words, time and energy on making long-winded arguments that a moment's thought is sufficient to defeat. The only common theme I see is that you are trying to spin a clear win for PWE (less dil for players; more Zpoint sales and resultant $$$) at the players' expense (reduced dil supply) as a win for players when the truth is quite obviously the contrary; players simply did not lose as hard as they might have.

Last edited by aestu; 08-30-2012 at 11:56 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 730
# 472
08-30-2012, 12:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aestu View Post
If that were true they would have simply rationalized the yield rather than globally nerf it.

You're expending a lot of words, time and energy on making long-winded arguments that a moment's thought is sufficient to defeat. The only common theme I see is that you are trying to spin a clear win for PWE (less dil for players; more Zpoint sales and resultant $$$) at the players' expense (reduced dil supply) as a win for players when the truth is quite obviously the contrary; players simply did not lose as hard as they might have.
Nope, I'm not spinning anything. I call it how I see it.

The clear win is for the players who want cheap doffs and advanced starbases. The people who lose out are those who *relied* on doffs for dilithium -- even though there are *far* easier methods avaialble, and those who were engaged in price gouging on the exchange to build up their EC. Since I don't trade dilithium for zen or dismiss doffs en masse regularly, this is a huge net win for me personally.

Does this effect PWE's bottom line in some way? Sure -- it makes people more likely to continue doing the starbase projects and that means they'll be spending dilithium ultimately on projects instead of on zen. Keep in mind that dilithium doesn't *create* zen -- it is only bought from whatever reserves that those who paid real money have put into the system. PWE makes its money the moment someone buys the zen, regardless of whether you paid 1 dilithium for it or 1 million.
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Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 410
# 473
08-30-2012, 12:52 PM
Up next, Aestu accuses you of being a PWE sockpuppet account.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 447
# 474
08-30-2012, 01:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thepantsparty View Post
Up next, Aestu accuses you of being a PWE sockpuppet account.
I'm content to stick to the facts of the post - style, motives and apparent fallacies - and let other posters arrive at their own conclusions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phyrexianhero View Post
Nope, I'm not spinning anything. I call it how I see it...

...Since I don't trade dilithium for zen or dismiss doffs en masse regularly, this is a huge net win for me personally.
Pointing out that your personal experiences and views are just that is redundant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phyrexianhero View Post
The clear win is for the players who want cheap doffs and advanced starbases. The people who lose out are those who *relied* on doffs for dilithium -- even though there are *far* easier methods avaialble, and those who were engaged in price gouging on the exchange to build up their EC.
Using the argument that there are "far easier methods available" is illogical because if this were true then there would be no need for the change.

The former group gets nothing it didn't already have, so it's not "winning".

The latter group is a study in lynch-mob demagoguery: victimizing alleged bogeymen to prop up real injustices.

There is no basis to imply a connection between disbands and high doff prices, because it's never the pricey doffs that get disbanded - only the cheapest. Someone disbanding a white Entertainer with a market value of 10k for 25dil has no connection to grousing about white Sensor Officers going for 500k.

Players disbanding fleet doffs has no impact on other players because they come from the doff vendor and not the exchange, and there's no basis to conflate Dil farmers with XC "gouging". To even call it "gouging" implies that the market is somehow biased or unfair which it is not because this is an MMO and no one has an unfair advantage...except those who spend real money on it...which are the people who AREN'T doing what you describe. So really your claims are contrary to truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phyrexianhero View Post
Does this effect PWE's bottom line in some way? Sure -- it makes people more likely to continue doing the starbase projects and that means they'll be spending dilithium ultimately on projects instead of on zen. Keep in mind that dilithium doesn't *create* zen -- it is only bought from whatever reserves that those who paid real money have put into the system. PWE makes its money the moment someone buys the zen, regardless of whether you paid 1 dilithium for it or 1 million.
This is completely contrary to truth.

You're trying to equate "policies that get PWE $$$" with "STARBASES FOR ALL!!!" The highlighted portion underscores the fallacy. The intent is manufactured scarcity, to keep players grinding Dil so they HAVE to buy Zpoints for $$$ instead of with Dil.

It is in PWE's interests to limit the supply of Dilithium to ensure that players have reason to buy Zen to satisfy their needs, instead of farming whatever they need. Your claim that PWE makes "the same profit" whether someone buys it for 1dil or a million is very obviously contrary to truth: obviously if a Zen sold for a million dil then players would buy a hell of a lot less Zen because they'd need less to satisfy their demand. If Zen sold for one Dil then again players would buy a lot less for cash. This is a study in what economists call the supply curve: the sweet spot where sales are maximized.

All exchange-type systems dealing in virtual currency have two mathematical components besides the actual exchange rate. There is a tare, and a coefficient. The tare is the base cost of the item; an exchange with no tare would be like a car without an ignition. The coefficient determines the impact of supply and demand on the overall price (it isn't actually 1:1). A market with no coefficient is like a car without a clutch (or automatic transmission). The proper real-life analogy would be the money supply and interest rate, or, mechanically, weighting a scale, versus truncating the wire on one side of the scale.

What you're actually trying to do here is to assert fallacies about how the Dil exchange actually works. PWE is a business. Businesses exist to make a profit. There is no law against weighting a virtual currency exchange. If PWE could make more $$$ doing this - and they can - it is only sensible that they do so.

Last edited by aestu; 08-30-2012 at 02:11 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 730
# 475
08-30-2012, 02:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aestu View Post
<snip>
You're expending a lot of words, time and energy on making long-winded arguments that a moment's thought is sufficient to defeat. The only common theme I see is that you are trying to spin a clear win for most of the player base (cheaper doffs, advanced starbase) at the expense of a few (selling doffs for high EC, or dismissing them for quick dilithium) as PWE pulling the wool over everyone's eyes when the truth is quite obviously the contrary; players simply did not lose as much as you would have them think. We're almost 500 comments in and your arguments have convinced...anyone?

Your post illustrates a number of fallacies.
1) There are far easier methods to get dilithium, but this created a fast-tracked EC-to-dilithium->zen path (the reverse has a much better rate, but uses money->zen).
2) The gouging of the market is created by people who try to corner the market (i.e. those who desperately want to keep item A above price X). They know who they are.
3) PWE makes its profit whenever someone buys ZEN. People that only go from dilithium-to-zen do not affect their bottom line directly. Sure, there may be some people who would have bought more items with money instead of using dilithium if the dilithium exchange was substantially in their favor, but I have no reason this is a substantial portion of the community.
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Last edited by phyrexianhero; 08-30-2012 at 02:14 PM.
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Posts: 447
# 476
08-30-2012, 02:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by phyrexianhero View Post
a clear win for most of the player base (cheaper doffs, advanced starbase)
You are contradicting yourself. You said yourself that players will take longer to fulfill their starbase Dil needs and spend Dil on that and not Zpoints. Therefore, by your own prior claims, this change will slow starbase construction.

You keep bringing up defeated arguments...we have established why this change will have no impact on the price of doffs: because the issue was that only fleet doffs, or very cheap and useless white civilians, were being disbanded - not the costly and scarce security and sensor officers that are bottlenecking construction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phyrexianhero View Post
Your post illustrates a number of fallacies.

1) There are far easier methods to get dilithium, but this created a fast-tracked EC-to-dilithium->zen path (the reverse has a much better rate, but uses money->zen).
Fleet doffs do not cost EC so that claim is untrue.
Another contradiction, how can it be a fast track if it's slower than the alternatives?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phyrexianhero View Post
2) The gouging of the market is created by people who try to corner the market (i.e. those who desperately want to keep item A above price X). They know who they are.
The BOOGEYMEN! It's an old trick to blame anonymous "They" and "Them" to defend unjust policies.

Anyone who has played MMOs (or knows anything about market economics) knows that market cornering is very difficult in real life and impossible in MMOs, because attempts to corner the market can be sustained only by either:
a) constricting access to the market (which is impossible in an MMO)
b) monopolizing production (also impossible in an MMO)
c) pumping currency into the market to acquire all supply

"C" is ultimately self-defeating, because the would-be monopolist arouses market forces in his attempts to corner the market: he must constantly expend currency on buying up all supply, then raising his own prices to ensure he makes a profit. This makes producing the good more profitable, so producers ramp up production, forcing the monopolist to expend even more resources on maintaining control. Eventually, the monopolist goes bust and the bubble he has created bursts in a liquidation of the abnormal surplus created by his artificial demand. (Some of our readers in their 20s and 30s may remember when they were kids, silver was $4-5 an ounce in the aftermath of the Hunt Brothers).

In STO it is completely impossible to corner the doff market because of its sheer scale and the myriad means of acquiring doffs. No one player, or group of players, have enough wealth (or roster space) to acquire all doffs nor even enough time to do so. So your "bogeymen" are no more real than any other such group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phyrexianhero View Post
3) PWE makes its profit whenever someone buys ZEN. People that only go from dilithium-to-zen do not affect their bottom line directly. Sure, there may be some people who would have bought more items with money instead of using dilithium if the dilithium exchange was substantially in their favor, but I have no reason this is a substantial portion of the community.
Highlighted the fallacy. The mission of business is not to make a profit. It is to MAXIMIZE profit. If people are buying Zen with Dil to satisfy their needs, then they aren't buying Zen with $$$. That's $$$ PWE wants, to MAXIMIZE profit.

Why are you so tenacious in trying to make an obviously flawed argument?

Last edited by aestu; 08-30-2012 at 03:03 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 730
# 477
08-30-2012, 04:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aestu View Post
You are contradicting yourself. You said yourself that players will take longer to fulfill their starbase Dil needs and spend Dil on that and not Zpoints. Therefore, by your own prior claims, this change will slow starbase construction.

You keep bringing up defeated arguments...we have established why this change will have no impact on the price of doffs: because the issue was that only fleet doffs, or very cheap and useless white civilians, were being disbanded - not the costly and scarce security and sensor officers that are bottlenecking construction.
Nope: Very cheap doffs not being dismissed results in (drum roll) cheaper doffs. Also, some will sell fleet doffs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aestu View Post
Fleet doffs do not cost EC so that claim is untrue.
Another contradiction, how can it be a fast track if it's slower than the alternatives?
Nope. No one was dismissing fleet doffs for dilithium -- they don't reward any. It's fast in that you click a button instead of running missions. People were paying EC for doffs, then dismissing. The process is fast, it's just EC intensive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aestu View Post
The BOOGEYMEN! It's an old trick to blame anonymous "They" and "Them" to defend unjust policies.

Anyone who has played MMOs (or knows anything about market economics) knows that market cornering is very difficult in real life and impossible in MMOs, because attempts to corner the market can be sustained only by either:
a) constricting access to the market (which is impossible in an MMO)
b) monopolizing production (also impossible in an MMO)
c) pumping currency into the market to acquire all supply

"C" is ultimately self-defeating, because the would-be monopolist arouses market forces in his attempts to corner the market: he must constantly expend currency on buying up all supply, then raising his own prices to ensure he makes a profit. This makes producing the good more profitable, so producers ramp up production, forcing the monopolist to expend even more resources on maintaining control. Eventually, the monopolist goes bust and the bubble he has created bursts in a liquidation of the abnormal surplus created by his artificial demand. (Some of our readers in their 20s and 30s may remember when they were kids, silver was $4-5 an ounce in the aftermath of the Hunt Brothers).
Actually, its called obeying the forum's rules. While C is bad for those in the long-term, it doesn't stop people in short-term.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aestu View Post
Why are you so tenacious in trying to make an obviously flawed argument?
Why are *you*? I haven't seen you convince a single poster in this thread of almost 500 posts. You seem to just want to argue with anyone and everyone.
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Last edited by phyrexianhero; 08-30-2012 at 04:42 PM.
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# 478
08-30-2012, 05:00 PM
Summary, people, is PWE in essence admitting that the real issue was, as I said, people hitting the Dil cap. Proof being so much effort goes into spinning it into something else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phyrexianhero View Post
Nope: Very cheap doffs not being dismissed results in (drum roll) cheaper doffs. Also, some will sell fleet doffs.
Fleet doffs were salable before the controversial change.

The doffs that were being dismissed for Dil were useless and that is why they were being dismissed. This has been said many times. You keep bringing up obviously false arguments that don't seem to have any angle other than to support PWE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phyrexianhero View Post
Nope. No one was dismissing fleet doffs for dilithium -- they don't reward any. It's fast in that you click a button instead of running missions. People were paying EC for doffs, then dismissing. The process is fast, it's just EC intensive.
This thread is about a change to fleet doffs, acquired though the fleet vendor, not other doffs - so clearly your argument is a red herring.

The former claim is untrue (I dismissed a lot of them for dil).
How do you presume to know what other players are doing, anyway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phyrexianhero View Post
Actually, its called obeying the forum's rules. While C is bad for those in the long-term, it doesn't stop people in short-term.
How do you know who these BOGEYMEN are?

You can't know who is listing what. You're trynig to use XC BOGEYMEN as a red herring to justify PWE's efforts to gouge players on Zpoints.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phyrexianhero View Post
]Why are *you*? I haven't seen you convince a single poster in this thread of almost 500 posts. You seem to just want to argue with anyone and everyone.
This is another PR tactic - appeal to herd mentality.

The only person I am arguing with is...you. In fact no one else has posted during this dialogue, so that is all your remark is, a baseless appeal to herd mentality in an effort to make it seem like there's more to your claims than you saying so.

Last edited by aestu; 08-30-2012 at 05:06 PM.
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Posts: 730
# 479
08-30-2012, 06:25 PM
1) PWE admitted no such thing.
2) You're trying to change the nature of the debate. It's not on the initial release of doffs, it's on the latest patch changes (August 30). Since these fleet doffs are still not dismissable for dilithium this is a win for those who want more white doffs on the market and at lower prices. *That* is what is important to most players concerned with starbases.
3) Some people like to brag about it. I pay attention.
4) PR tactic? I have no relation with PWE. Your arguments are unpersuasive and fundamentally flawed.
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Last edited by phyrexianhero; 08-30-2012 at 06:29 PM.
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# 480
08-30-2012, 06:39 PM
Clearly white entertainers are not cheap enough
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