Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 797
# 1 Science! (captains)
08-23-2012, 11:33 AM
Ok.

I think science in general needs a complete overhaul in this game.

This thread is going to be about the science captains and their powers, and what the science captain is supposed to be used for and how i think they could improve that.

Science in this game is supposed to be about using "tricks" to score kills and survive, and to use crowd control abilities to take charge in the battlefield.

Sadly, the science captain's powers do not support this.
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We have science fleet. a great team shield reisitance buff. that also makes you shields and power insulation a tiny bit more powerful. if power insulation actually worked right in this game.
this is a bad skill for what the science captain is supposed to do. it does not contribute to crowd control, or increase other science skill's powers in any way.

What could be done to it? I honestly am not sure. i was thinking maybe a team wide increase to science skills or a team wide resistance to science skills with an in crease in shield regen would probably fit the theme of the science captain better imo.
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sub nuc beam- needs to be removed and turn into a commander bridge officer slot (at greatly reduced effectiveness and reduced cooldown). this is a single target killer, not about crowd contorl in any way shape or form. its also pretty useless by itself against anyone who knows what theyre doing when youre in a science ship.

what could be done to it? this power needs to be replaced altogehter with something that gives your own ship high shield resistance (20-35% depending on aux power) AND buffs all of your science powers by an insane amount. +200-+300 to all science powers. (this is of course going on a skill tree revamp that i'll touch lightly on at the end of this thread).
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sensor scan- currently, the idea behind it is nice. an AOE debuff to resistances against multiple targets is just what it should be. however its weaker then it used to be.

what can be done? well haveing the "starship sensors" increase its debuff again would be the only fix that's needed. currently starship sensors only increases its ability to detect cloak, which is 99% of the time useless.
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photonic fleet- the idea is neat, bring in extra ships to help you out. the problem is that it brings in more spam and doesnt really fit in the theme of crowd control for the science officers.

what can be done? replace this skill entirely with something else. some sort of photonic partical generator idea- photonic partical generator: reduces incomming damage by 25-50% (depending on aux) and also reduces acc of those targeting you. or make it have a small AEO effect like scattering field (ill get to that one next)
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scattering field- a nice aoe resist enhancer, but i think it could be replaced by an offensive ability.

what to do about it? replace it with an AOE ability that reduces enemy shield resists/ science resists and have it more scaleable with aux then it currently is. it currently caps out at 99.9 points if im not mistaken.
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thats my thoughts on the science captains powers themselves.

these changes though would be dependant on a major overhaul of the science skill tree though. currently starships sensors is virtually useless, it doesnt resist confusion properly (ams) and it doesnt increase anything worth of note.

some skill tree powers are too expensive while others are too cheap as well.

my next thread will be addressing the skill tree then the thread after that will be about the bridge officer powers.
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 846
# 2
08-23-2012, 12:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716maikai View Post
Ok.

I think science in general needs a complete overhaul in this game.

This thread is going to be about the science captains and their powers, and what the science captain is supposed to be used for and how i think they could improve that.

Science in this game is supposed to be about using "tricks" to score kills and survive, and to use crowd control abilities to take charge in the battlefield.

Sadly, the science captain's powers do not support this.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
We have science fleet. a great team shield reisitance buff. that also makes you shields and power insulation a tiny bit more powerful. if power insulation actually worked right in this game.
this is a bad skill for what the science captain is supposed to do. it does not contribute to crowd control, or increase other science skill's powers in any way.

What could be done to it? I honestly am not sure. i was thinking maybe a team wide increase to science skills or a team wide resistance to science skills with an in crease in shield regen would probably fit the theme of the science captain better imo.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sub nuc beam- needs to be removed and turn into a commander bridge officer slot (at greatly reduced effectiveness and reduced cooldown). this is a single target killer, not about crowd contorl in any way shape or form. its also pretty useless by itself against anyone who knows what theyre doing when youre in a science ship.

what could be done to it? this power needs to be replaced altogehter with something that gives your own ship high shield resistance (20-35% depending on aux power) AND buffs all of your science powers by an insane amount. +200-+300 to all science powers. (this is of course going on a skill tree revamp that i'll touch lightly on at the end of this thread).
-------------------------------------------------------------------'

sensor scan- currently, the idea behind it is nice. an AOE debuff to resistances against multiple targets is just what it should be. however its weaker then it used to be.

what can be done? well haveing the "starship sensors" increase its debuff again would be the only fix that's needed. currently starship sensors only increases its ability to detect cloak, which is 99% of the time useless.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

photonic fleet- the idea is neat, bring in extra ships to help you out. the problem is that it brings in more spam and doesnt really fit in the theme of crowd control for the science officers.

what can be done? replace this skill entirely with something else. some sort of photonic partical generator idea- photonic partical generator: reduces incomming damage by 25-50% (depending on aux) and also reduces acc of those targeting you. or make it have a small AEO effect like scattering field (ill get to that one next)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

scattering field- a nice aoe resist enhancer, but i think it could be replaced by an offensive ability.

what to do about it? replace it with an AOE ability that reduces enemy shield resists/ science resists and have it more scaleable with aux then it currently is. it currently caps out at 99.9 points if im not mistaken.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

thats my thoughts on the science captains powers themselves.

these changes though would be dependant on a major overhaul of the science skill tree though. currently starships sensors is virtually useless, it doesnt resist confusion properly (ams) and it doesnt increase anything worth of note.

some skill tree powers are too expensive while others are too cheap as well.

my next thread will be addressing the skill tree then the thread after that will be about the bridge officer powers.
Damnit Mai. I'm not sure how much character limit you left me and I'm the windbagged one here.

Sci Fleet. The thing is, without it, I'm not sure how well sto pvp would function. I mean really it's one of the last reasons why you don't see literally everyone and their brother running 5 man oddy extend chain teams. Do we really want that? I know I sure don't.

Maybe if Eng Fleet got turned into sci fleet, and turn sci fleet into a buff to everyone's Graviton, Decompiler, counter measure, and particle generators skills. That might do it.
And give it a Big boost to those skills.
___________________
Sub Nuc: needs to stay just as it is. Part of CC, is Debuff. This is true for all games, not just this one. While we do need more non sub nuc effective debuffs or buff cleanse skills, completely sacking it is not imo the way to go. Sub Nuc, is kind of like a Curse and Dispel effect rolled into one. I actually like it that way. Makes things more fun.
__________________
Sensor Scan: Ditto on that one.

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Photonic Fleet needs to die in a fire. No seriously it does. My recommendation is to replace it with an Actual Stun. Not some cheap ass knock off that you can use Team abilities through either. I want a 6 second stun out of it. Give it a 3 minute cool down and a 7km range.
You can call it Shockwave Propagation.

Alternate: Make this a second Buff your Sci Skills Skill. Put it on a 2 minute timer, give it a 45 second duration. This one boosts, Emitter arrays, Graviton Gens, Inertial Dampeners, Sensors. Again give it very large bonuses to those skills.
You can call it Advanced Theory Application

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Scattering field, with the above changes you can keep it as it is really.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,553
# 3
08-23-2012, 12:52 PM
sci theoretically has good cc capability. the rifts if they had more range and more pull would be effective at controlling enemy movement and grouping them all together for major AOE vulnerability. aoe shield drains and stuns would be a great cc if they were any good anymore. tractor repulsers do a good job throwing people around, breaking up balls of protection and pushing people out of support range. for more single target suppression theres vm, tach beam, trac beam and subnukes.

i think its a good group of abilities in concept, and they could perform their roles well, but they just don't. powers need fixing, and the sci skill tree needs reordering.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 797
# 4
08-23-2012, 01:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostyandfrosty View Post
Damnit Mai. I'm not sure how much character limit you left me and I'm the windbagged one here.

Sci Fleet. The thing is, without it, I'm not sure how well sto pvp would function. I mean really it's one of the last reasons why you don't see literally everyone and their brother running 5 man oddy extend chain teams. Do we really want that? I know I sure don't.

Maybe if Eng Fleet got turned into sci fleet, and turn sci fleet into a buff to everyone's Graviton, Decompiler, counter measure, and particle generators skills. That might do it.
And give it a Big boost to those skills.
___________________
Sub Nuc: needs to stay just as it is. Part of CC, is Debuff. This is true for all games, not just this one. While we do need more non sub nuc effective debuffs or buff cleanse skills, completely sacking it is not imo the way to go. Sub Nuc, is kind of like a Curse and Dispel effect rolled into one. I actually like it that way. Makes things more fun.
__________________
Sensor Scan: Ditto on that one.

_______
Photonic Fleet needs to die in a fire. No seriously it does. My recommendation is to replace it with an Actual Stun. Not some cheap ass knock off that you can use Team abilities through either. I want a 6 second stun out of it. Give it a 3 minute cool down and a 7km range.
You can call it Shockwave Propagation.

Alternate: Make this a second Buff your Sci Skills Skill. Put it on a 2 minute timer, give it a 45 second duration. This one boosts, Emitter arrays, Graviton Gens, Inertial Dampeners, Sensors. Again give it very large bonuses to those skills.
You can call it Advanced Theory Application

____________
Scattering field, with the above changes you can keep it as it is really.
yes, ideally engineering fleet would give both a medium shield and hull resist boost. (since engineers are the "tank/healers" class.

sub nuc is an excellent debuff, but the problem is its nearly useless by itself against anyone who knows how to play.

my proposal to sub nuc becomming a commander bridge officer power solves a couple of things, namely that having ascience captain on your team would only be useful for the snb. this change cant be done though until bridge officer powers are buffed/resists adjusted.

it can still only be used in science ships, it would be reduced depending on the teir you take. (maybe even make teir 1 be lt cmdr)

teir 1 would remove 1-2 (skill tree dependant) random buffs and reduce all cooldowns by 5-15 aux dependant seconds. cleared by sci team. lt commander ability.

teir 2 would remove 2-4 (skill tree dependant) random buffs and reduce all cooldowns by 15-25 aux dependant seconds. cleared by science team. commander ability.

teir 3 would remove 4-6 (skill tree dependant) random buffs and reduce all cooldowns by 25-35 aux dependant seconds seconds, cleared by sci team. commander ability.

now when i say clears a buff i mean all of a single buff type. if you have 5 hazzard emitters and hazzard emitters are cleared, then all 5 are removed.

sub nuc beam would be a deflector ability that shares a global cooldown with probes. so you cant vm and sub nuc at the same time. would also be resistable by the skill tree. the duration and the number of buff removes can both be resisted.
Banned
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Posts: 846
# 5
08-23-2012, 02:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716maikai View Post
yes, ideally engineering fleet would give both a medium shield and hull resist boost. (since engineers are the "tank/healers" class.

sub nuc is an excellent debuff, but the problem is its nearly useless by itself against anyone who knows how to play.

my proposal to sub nuc becomming a commander bridge officer power solves a couple of things, namely that having ascience captain on your team would only be useful for the snb. this change cant be done though until bridge officer powers are buffed/resists adjusted.

it can still only be used in science ships, it would be reduced depending on the teir you take. (maybe even make teir 1 be lt cmdr)

teir 1 would remove 1-2 (skill tree dependant) random buffs and reduce all cooldowns by 5-15 aux dependant seconds. cleared by sci team. lt commander ability.

teir 2 would remove 2-4 (skill tree dependant) random buffs and reduce all cooldowns by 15-25 aux dependant seconds. cleared by science team. commander ability.

teir 3 would remove 4-6 (skill tree dependant) random buffs and reduce all cooldowns by 25-35 aux dependant seconds seconds, cleared by sci team. commander ability.

now when i say clears a buff i mean all of a single buff type. if you have 5 hazzard emitters and hazzard emitters are cleared, then all 5 are removed.

sub nuc beam would be a deflector ability that shares a global cooldown with probes. so you cant vm and sub nuc at the same time. would also be resistable by the skill tree. the duration and the number of buff removes can both be resisted.
But what in it's right mind gets used by itself in pvp. SNB is part of a 1, 2 punch (or more really) that kills a ship. It can't be thought of as "almost useless by itself" because it never is by itself, or shouldn't be. Dispels and Curses in quite a few other games are handled in this fashion as well. As much as people pretend otherwise, this game is an mmo. Sci Captains role is all about CC and Debuffs. Let it have a Dispel in it's captain skills. Also, I really wouldn't want to give up boff slots for SNB on multiple ships if they were watered down. The Opp cost could be too high for the limited Dispel you're proposing in it's place.

SNB can stay where it is, and with the changes that you or myself otherwise provided, would still be fielded for more than just SNB. If anything really, removing the Dispel effect from Sci captains is really kind of a nerf, not a buff.

I -do- feel that there needs to be a curse/debuff in the sci captain tree in addition to the Dispel that SNB is. So you could probably change scattering field to reduce enemy healing effectiveness, or SDR, like you proposed.

Let the other abilities provide Boost and or Debuff, leave the Dispel in.

Besides, would you want me having Bo3, and a cmdr level Dispel, and TBR2 on my fleet nova? I sure wouldn't not if I were on the other end of it anyway
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 797
# 6
08-23-2012, 02:16 PM
i actually wouldnt mind that nova. because you then loose out on another cmdr science ability.

you could do that nova layout with a tbr 3 and a vm1 or a tbr 3 and shockwave for a quick stun and the snb and the bo3 and the beta 1.



i cant wiat for my nova for pve, i still dont think itll be as good for pvp because its not much better then a low end escort. you can take the mvam and get all the benifits of the escort and the science ship when compaired to the fleet nova
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 846
# 7
08-23-2012, 02:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716maikai View Post
i actually wouldnt mind that nova. because you then loose out on another cmdr science ability.

you could do that nova layout with a tbr 3 and a vm1 or a tbr 3 and shockwave for a quick stun and the snb and the bo3 and the beta 1.



i cant wiat for my nova for pve, i still dont think itll be as good for pvp because its not much better then a low end escort. you can take the mvam and get all the benifits of the escort and the science ship when compaired to the fleet nova
PSW isn't a stun. They can heal through it TBR2's damage is plenty crazy enough when built properly. Said nova would have your Dispel power in the cmdr, FBP2, TBR2, BO3, BO2 TT probably. Thing wouldn't be pumping low end escort levels of dps
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 797
# 8
08-23-2012, 02:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostyandfrosty View Post
PSW isn't a stun. They can heal through it TBR2's damage is plenty crazy enough when built properly. Said nova would have your Dispel power in the cmdr, FBP2, TBR2, BO3, BO2 TT probably. Thing wouldn't be pumping low end escort levels of dps
shockwave is about as stunny as you can get in this game. i cant imagine theyd give that as captain power like you suggested.

and you can do that all that anyways and have the cmdr power be something else useful like maybe PhO3 so you would only need bo3.
you cant take both fbp2 and tbr2 on a nova. its only got one ltcmdr sci slot.

maybe my first thread should have been about the skill tree.

-does things in the reverse order-


skill tree>bridge officer powers>captain powers. eh?
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 846
# 9
08-23-2012, 02:48 PM
First I've been drinking so remember boff powers on the ship I don't have yet can be sketchy. Just swap out the TBR2 for 1. 1 can still DPS, it's not Super Crank worthy, but it can still crank it, if you use it with a low health GDF.

I know, they probably won't but they probably won't change sci captains either. Figure if we're dreaming I'd go ahead and put my ideal dream in there.

Yeah, I'd have started with that order. Skill Tree, Boffs, and last if it's still required captain abilities.
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Posts: 120
# 10
08-23-2012, 04:42 PM
I really like the idea of scattering field increasing sci damage and decreasing opponents sci resistance...it's still group oriented and gives science captains an ability to do damage in PVE/PVP.

I also would like to promote the idea of SNB being a single target resistance debuff...maybe a 50% shield resist debuff that can strip 1-2 buffs rather than all buffs. Still useful, but adds a new flavor.

Sci fleet would be better if it reduced accuracy of enemies or increased accuracy of friends. That's different and not so heal focused...avoids stepping on engineers' toes...
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