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Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 423
Much of the discussion with regards to how to balance the Professions and Bridge Office Ability Pools of those professions has revolved around tweaking or fundamentally changing Profession or Bridge Office Abilities. I however have been thinking that perhaps a different approach would work better for both the PVE and PVP STO gamer. So here it goes guys, don?t hang me until you?ve read everything. It isn?t that long!

I have been thinking, what if Cryptic created a couple more of those ship modifiers that would be applied to ships of specific types in order to bring some additional balance to the DPS disparity between ship classes in PVE and PVP; but don?t worry, Escorts with tactical captains will still remain supreme in the DPS arena. My reasoning to go after the ship types is, is that it is a lot easier to balance a ship modifier across a single class of ships than it is to balance a Bridge Officer ability across all classes and combinations of ships in the game.

My Proposal: Science Vessels

I would propose to give all Science Ships an ?Accuracy Modifier, a ?Rate of Fire? modifier and a ?Damage Reduction? modifier that applies to all of its energy weapons regardless of type. Type is to be understood as Beam, Cannon or turret.

With an accuracy modifier the Science ship, while not packing a huge punch with its fewer weapons and fewer Tactical consoles, will certainly be better equipped to maintain an overall better DPS against all targets over time; especially with Sensor analysis being figured into the equation.

With a ?Rate of Fire? modifier, the Science ships will be able to PROC more often, but while coupled with the ?Damage Reduction? modifier or penalty, they will maintain the current or similar level of DPS that energy weapons normally output. Now I know a few of you just shouted aloud ?hell no!? because Phaser PROC?s are somewhat ridiculous due to pet spam and other factors. However, that is an issue with the Phaser PROC itself and does not really have to do with this discussion. Please try and focus on the overall picture as we continue. Thank you!

My Proposal: Cruisers

As for Cruisers, I strongly propose that Cruisers should have their own ?Rate of Fire? modifier on its energy weapons regardless of type as well. Unlike the Science vessels, I would propose that Cruisers should fire more slowly but deal more damage per shot, known as damage per Volley (DPV) in the game.

Yet Cruisers should also maintain the same or similar DPS output that its energy weapons, when equipped, currently have. This can be done by manipulating the Cruisers weapons damage modifier and rate of fire modifier so that DPV is high yet DPS is still maintained. For a demonstration of this, see Torpedo weapons in the game. Specifically, look at Quantum verses Photon Torpedo weapons. Photon has high DPS and Quantum Higher DPV.

My Proposal: Escorts

Leave them alone, they don?t need a NERF nor do they really need any BUFF. Escorts are arguably the best ship Type in the game for both PVE and PVP.

With these changes I predict the following results:

-Escorts will continue to be the high rolling DPS machines that they are expected to be, especially with a Tactical Captain in command. Against a Cruiser, Escorts will have to be careful not to reduce impulse speeds so much so as to reduce their defense modifiers whereas the cruiser is possibly landing many additional hits per volley; as each hit will now do more DPV. That might mean it will be more dangerous to match the Cruisers speed and sit on its aft firing arch hammering away at the Aft Shields? or it might not be? your defense value against cruisers however will be more important. Against Science Ships, Escorts will notice that subsystem attacks will occur more often and that the science ship will be able to maintain weapons lock much more easily than any other class ship in the game. However, science vessels will not be any more difficult to destroy than they are now. (Note, I do not think that the Carriers should receive the Science Vessel changes discussed above!)

-Science Ships will enjoy a slight increase in DPS and also a nice benefit of being able to PROC their energy Weapons more often against their targets compared with the other two classes by default. This will make them more valuable in both PVE and PVP five man teams. It will also make otherwise infrequently used energy weapon types a little more enticing to try out. Science ships will also notice slightly better gameplay verses other Players in PVP and will receive fewer complaints from their team mates in five man PVE missions that require better DPS output to effectively meet the challenges the team will face. Overall, my proposal Buffs Science Vessels slightly!

-Cruisers will enjoy the ability to Spike damage slightly better than currently, but overall they will not see an increase in DPS over time. Cruisers will also suffer a slight penalty in the amount that they PROC an enemy Vessel compared to Escorts and Science Vessels. However, Cruisers will now be better able to overpower enemy defense such as shield facings in both PVE and PVP due to the increase DPV of each shot. This means that Beam Overload will be more potent on a Cruiser than on an Escort, however, FAW will in fact be slightly weaker when used on a cruiser. With increased DPV on cruisers it is important to still maintain the overall DPS that energy weapons deal so as to not out due Escorts in DPS.

The reason to increase DPV while maintaining DPS on cruisers is so that cruiser don?t have to watch their damage constantly be repaired nearly immediately by a ships shield regeneration rate or hull repair rate. A volley from a Cruiser will now potentially deal noticeable damage to a well shielded and resisted target.

Discuss your thoughts with regard to my suggestions above.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 438
# 2
08-27-2012, 11:40 AM
The problem with sci ships isn't that their energy weapons aren't doing enough damage

The problem is that sci powers have been nerfed into the dirt. My lulz recon build is down to the last option as far as sci powers go. If they nerfed VM, I'd be completely done with sci vessels all together. My sci does next to no damage, but can be your worst nightmare when I'm on a competent team. Screwing with their opponents is exactly what sci should be designed to do.

Last edited by falloutx23; 08-27-2012 at 11:45 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 438
# 3
08-27-2012, 11:48 AM
Cruisers are fine as is. A step in that direction just takes us one step closer to cruisers online.

Your premise is buff sci and cruisers, but not escorts basically is like saying "let's nerf escorts"

I don't think thats a step towards over all balance.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 423
# 4
08-27-2012, 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by falloutx23 View Post
The problem with sci ships isn't that their energy weapons aren't doing enough damage
I completely understand that. I?m not saying that this balance method will solve the issues with Science Bridge Officer Abilities not functioning correctly nor will it solve the issue with the relationship between Flow Capacitors and power insulator resistances and Buff of abilities.

This proposal for change really doesn?t propose a serious increase to DPS for Science Vessels. The accuracy helps with the natural Beam Target Abilities and the fast firing rate will help with the PROC of the Energy weapons thereby making certain infrequently used energy weapons more viable in Power Drain builds and Shield Stripping builds when supplemented with the correct Bridge Officer Abilities and Skill point usage.

I?m sorry if you feel I?m giving off the impression that I think DPS is the number one issue with balance in the game. It isn?t, but it is an issue in PVE five man groups and to, perhaps a lesser extent PVP.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 423
# 5
08-27-2012, 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by falloutx23 View Post
Cruisers are fine as is. A step in that direction just takes us one step closer to cruisers online.

Your premise is buff sci and cruisers, but not escorts basically is like saying "let's nerf escorts"

I don't think thats a step towards over all balance.
In what way did I NERF Escorts? Explain given my proposal if you will why you think that I did any such thing!

What i did is I propose Cruisers do more DPV and the same DPS. If an escort has a high defense, than in fact I just buffed the Escort defense verses a Cruiser because a higher DPV with the same DPS, when it misses, will be worse for a cruiser. All that means is, it is a bit more dangerous to sit on the aft arc at low speed and fire away non-stop into the cruiser. So you have to manuever a bit more...

I did buff Science verses both Cruiser and Escort. Just saying. Science ships need help right now.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 438
# 6
08-27-2012, 11:55 AM
Sci ships suck in pve and adding a few more procs isn't going to help that.

Pve in this game is so easy, even in my sci spec, I could jump my ass into a scort and do fine in a STF. In a pug, I'll still do better than 90% of the ppl Ill end up teamed with.

I only say all of this because I want cryptic to FIX the problem instead of throwing band aids on it
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 438
# 7
08-27-2012, 12:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by teleon22 View Post
In what way did I NERF Escorts? Explain given my proposal if you will why you think that I did any such thing!

What i did is I propose Cruisers do more DPV and the same DPS. If an escort has a high defense, than in fact I just buffed the Escort defense verses a Cruiser because a higher DPV with the same DPS, when it misses, will be worse for a cruiser. All that means is, it is a bit more dangerous to sit on the aft arc at low speed and fire away non-stop into the cruiser. So you have to manuever a bit more...

I did buff Science verses both Cruiser and Escort. Just saying. Science ships need help right now.
First off, if you buff 2 classes but not the third, it can be seen as nerfing the one that gets no buff. If your honestly trying to say adding burst damage to a cruiser isn't a buff, then why do it at all?

Second, you won't MISS anymore or less % with a higher dpv vs dps with everything else being equal. You'll miss exactly the same percentage.

Third, in your own words you described an escort having to change its tactics in order to survive. That sure sounds like it has a negative effect on scorts to me?

FYI...my main is a sci/oddy. Just wanted to make that clear before I'm accused of defending a class I suck at playing
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 423
# 8
08-27-2012, 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by falloutx23 View Post
First off, if you buff 2 classes but not the third, it can be seen as nerfing the one that gets no buff. If you?re honestly trying to say adding burst damage to a cruiser isn't a buff, then why do it at all?
So that Cruisers are more effective when fighting at each-other. It has nothing to do with how Cruiser deals with Escorts. See, you didn?t even consider that did you? I think you assume I hate Escorts or something, I don?t. I just don?t see any need to tweak them as they do very well verse everything but a pure Tank build or a better escort.

Quote:
Second, you won't MISS any more or less % with a higher dpv vs dps with everything else being equal. You'll miss exactly the same percentage.
That is true; you will miss the exact same percentage of shots. However, if you consider that the cruiser will fire less often to maintain the same DPS in order to achieve that higher DPV. Then every miss will in fact reduce its effective DPS verse an Escort. The only time that the Cruiser will have an advantage verse the Escort is if for some reason its defense approaches 0; which can happen. However, between holds and reduced periods of defense, the escort won?t really notice any difference fighting a cruiser.

Quote:
Third, in your own words you described an escort having to change its tactics in order to survive. That sure sounds like it has a negative effect on scorts to me?
A change in tactics is not a NERF! It is true that with the change Escorts won?t want to be caught very long at reduced defense values. Defense decreases as speed decreases. However, Cruisers won?t want to see Escorts with increased defense, as a miss for them will negatively affect how much DPS is being put on target. I think you are confused about my saying increased DPV at the same level of DPS. That is just a stat. In practice. The Increased DPV at the same DPS against a high Defense Escort will result in the Cruiser dealing even less DPS to the Escort. However, if the escort is stopped and closer to 0 defense, the cruiser will deal damage more quickly to the Escort. It is a trade-off situation that both ships can try and take advantage of.

Quote:
FYI...my main is a sci/oddy. Just wanted to make that clear before I'm accused of defending a class I suck at playing
Ok, fair enough. I had assumed you were an Escort Guy. In your case, it would be bad for you if the escort was flying at higher speeds strafing you with alpha strikes than it would be for him to sit on your aft and just shoot, shoot, shoot because your time on target and effective DPS will drop as it should against a target with good defense rating. With the change I suggest, this drop will be more easily seen. Yet, an escort stuck in a tractor beam will seriously be afraid of a broadside from a cruiser with six beams. See how that works?
Community Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,904
# 9
08-27-2012, 01:21 PM
While I would agree that Sci skills still need some love... there's barely any reason to use some of them...

I can see where a ship or ship class modifier of the parameters in question might be easier to balance and could help distinguish ship performance.

Neat idea. Whether it's a good one or not, I'll leave to others to debate.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,446
# 10
08-27-2012, 01:27 PM
To me the issue is the game isn't designed to facilitate (sp?) as large of a variety of playstyles as it should. If it did than a larger variety of ships and abilities would be more viable. The closest it comes are the transport raiding dailies the KDF have which favor fast high DPS ships.

For non-combat PvE as examples:

There's no benefit to using Sci ships/abilities for gathering anomolies.

Ships have no cargo holds, so there's no benefit to flying transports/cruisers in terms of moving resources from point A to B. There's also no real need to transport resourses from points A to B.

There's no advanced medical bays on ships nor need for them.

There's no advanced research ships nor reasons to have them.

Examples For Combat Oriented Gameplay:

There's no benefit other than boff layout for using one type of ship over another since there are so many ways to boost power, the power level bonuses are more nice bonuses than must haves.

There's no plus X to Sci abilities for Sci ships. Eg Plus 50 particle gen for Tholian Sci ships. Also, Sci ability base effects are too low to be effective in PvE in general.

No real design need for a grind out DoT + survivability for seige type situations. Also, spike repair capabilities hurt this.

No reason for recon missions.

No special forces type high risk high priority target missions.

No asymetric warfare type missions.

Not that all of these things should be in a Star Trek game, but if the base objectives are too narrow in scope than there's no real room for variety.
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