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Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 438
# 11
08-27-2012, 08:00 PM
Again, this isn't cruisers online. Balancing based on how one class fights itself instead of balancing a ships role in a team dynamic is going the wrong direction

If your dps is the same but with higher burst and less ROF, then your dps will be the same over time with everything being equal. Your argument that a missed shot doesn't make sense. For instance, in the current system you shoot a beam 10 times in ten seconds for 100 damage each, but your accuracy is 80% so you miss twice, you'd deal 800 damage in ten secs equating to 80 dps. Now let's double the dpv but cut the ROF by half. Now you fire five times at 200 damage and miss once with the same 80% accuracy. You've now dealt 800 damage over ten secs...again.

So let's say your right and it's not a nerf. It sure isn't balanced either. What your trying to do is shorten the gap of threat that a cruiser and sci's weapon damage produces vs what an escort can do. The ability for a cruiser to support a team is already OP as it is now. By also buffing it's ability to be more dangerous in the damage department only pushes it further into being OP unless your going take something away from cruisers or add something to escorts to compensate.

Last edited by falloutx23; 08-27-2012 at 11:08 PM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,676
# 12
08-28-2012, 01:18 AM
I like the general direction and think its a good idea. Two quick things:

1) Since there is absolutely nothing else to do in this game but DPS, I like the cruiser changes. A modest increase in DPV might help to end the dream team of 5 escorts rolling PvE. Except for KDF cruisers there is no reason to fly anything but an escort. So suck it up escort pilots, cruisers online is still far away, if anything escort tanking has gone way over board, either that needs to be nerfed, or cruisers need a dmg buff.

2) Sci ships: Need a buff, and i also really like the idea for it to be a team buff. I have brought a similar idea up a few times already. Why not make those Team boni something that is specific for each sci ship, eg. Nebula increases Acc, Intrepid Hull regen...

THis would up sci viability in solo pve, where they suck the most. And if we put a limit to the buff stacking it would prevent 5 sci ships from being the new got to combo for PvP arenas. Give us a reason to bring sci on our teams.

However, since the KDF has already lost the escort race, the KDF is in desperate need of some worthwhile upgrades as well.
Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013

Last edited by havam; 08-28-2012 at 01:40 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,294
# 13
08-28-2012, 02:29 AM
I also agree that escort tanking has gone way ott. In my humble opinion, escort tanking can be limited by reducing the amount of bfi doff usage to 1 rather than 3. This is one of the proposed changes i would recommend.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 735
# 14
08-28-2012, 04:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by falloutx23 View Post
The problem is that sci powers have been nerfed into the dirt. My lulz recon build is down to the last option as far as sci powers go..
Try the Tykens Doff... if you get a lucky proc, you can drain 100+ from ALL sybsystems, AoE. :p

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=367061
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 423
# 15
08-28-2012, 07:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by falloutx23 View Post
Again, this isn't cruisers online. Balancing based on how one class fights itself instead of balancing a ships role in a team dynamic is going the wrong direction.
I?m not trying to balance things based entirely on how one class fights its own class. I gave specific examples of how the changes I proposed would affect the other classes in my first post. Did you forget what you read already? That is some serious short term memory! I feel I already rebutted your complaint here in my first post.
Quote:
If your dps is the same but with higher burst and less ROF, then your dps will be the same over time with everything being equal. Your argument that a missed shot doesn't make sense. For instance, in the current system you shoot a beam 10 times in ten seconds for 100 damage each, but your accuracy is 80% so you miss twice, you'd deal 800 damage in ten secs equating to 80 dps. Now let's double the dpv but cut the ROF by half. Now you fire five times at 200 damage and miss once with the same 80% accuracy. You've now dealt 800 damage over ten secs...again.
You entirely missed the point of my argument. However, this I can explain better and with mathematics so that it will be more clear and evident that I was predicting high and low points in the DPS curve, although, overall no change in DPS over time.

Let us take for example a single beam array that does one hundred (100 DPV) damage per volley. This beam array fires four times over five seconds (5 seconds). Thus, we can figure out mathematically, that it will do an average eighty damage per second (80 DPS). Now, let us take my proposed beam array and assume it does two hundred (200 DPV) damage per volley. Now, in order to maintain the eighty damage per second on average; this beam array can only fire twice over the same five seconds (5 sec.).

So let?s summarize!!!

We have the regular beam array that has these values: 100DPV ? 80DPS: 4 cycles over 5sec.
We have the proposed beam array that has these values: 200PDV -80DPS: 2 cycles over 5sec.

Now let us figure in an average accuracy of eighty percent (80%) just like you wanted to use in your argument above. Four cycles of the regular beam array yield an average of 3.2 shots that will hit the target. Two cycles of the proposed beam array yield an average of 1.6 shots that will hit the target. Now let?s plug those averages in shall we? (200 DPV * 1.6 = 320) (100 DPV * 3.2 = 320) So far it looks like your assumption was correct, as it should be because I specifically stated I didn?t want to change the overall DPS over duration of time. Now, what you might not understand immediately is that there will be periods where DPS actually fluctuates even though over an extended period of time the average DPS should be actually equal.

For example, the game does not calculate a half of a hit. It either hits or it does not hit. So let us use an accuracy of only 70% and see what happens.

Regular Beam Array (100 DPV * 3 = 300)
Proposed Beam Array (200 DPV *1 = 200) or (200 DPV * 2 = 400)

So what happened above? Well, we had to round to the nearest whole number. Therefore, the proposed beam array will seemingly sometimes have a 50/50 chance to hit because it only has two cycles while the four cycle beam array will seemingly hit 70% of the time. However, mathematically, the DPS over time will even out.

I hope that helps you better understand the proposed change with Cruiser Weapon. Now, how that plays into fighting against Cruisers, Escorts and Science Ships. Well? obviously higher Defense will play into the Escorts favor more often. Cruisers with their lower defense, will be able to damage each other due to better spike potential and science vessels, like escorts, could benefit from higher defense as well.

Anyway, I put a huge amount of effort into this proposal. If people don?t like it, that is fine. However, I made sure not to bias against any particular ships type. If anything, Science Vessels are getting the best tweak with these proposed changes in my original post.

Quote:
So let's say your right and it's not a nerf. It sure isn't balanced either. What your trying to do is shorten the gap of threat that a cruiser and sci's weapon damage produces vs what an escort can do. The ability for a cruiser to support a team is already OP as it is now. By also buffing it's ability to be more dangerous in the damage department only pushes it further into being OP unless your going take something away from cruisers or add something to escorts to compensate.
You absolutely wrong, wrong, wrong! What I?m trying to do is slightly even out the DPS potential of each of the three classes in PVE because in PVE Defense hardly matters against the AI.

However, in PVP, Defense value and accuracy are extremely important. With my proposed changes, overall DPS over duration of 60 seconds will not change between an Escort to Cruiser or Cruiser to Science Vessel. It will change slightly Cruiser to Cruiser and it will change even more slightly Science to Escort, but not Escort to Science. The only reason Science will see a bigger change, although still small, is because the Science vessel will have a innate better accuracy modifier. Thus why the damage penalty I applied to that class of ship.

BTW, I appreciate your continued rebuttals, it allows me to further build my case that these modifiers will indeed help bring some more balance between the three classes in PVE DPS and slightly improve the PVP in Cruiser to Cruiser and Science to every both Cruiser and Escort, while hardly touching Cruiser to Escort/Escort to Cruiser or Cruiser to Science.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 438
# 16
08-28-2012, 07:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by naz4 View Post
I also agree that escort tanking has gone way ott. In my humble opinion, escort tanking can be limited by reducing the amount of bfi doff usage to 1 rather than 3. This is one of the proposed changes i would recommend.

Either that or just change it to a spot heal and drop the regen. That doff is ridiculously OP, but it's not an escort doff. My oddy survives with no rsp thanks to them
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 438
# 17
08-28-2012, 07:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by havam View Post
I like the general direction and think its a good idea. Two quick things:

1) Since there is absolutely nothing else to do in this game but DPS, I like the cruiser changes. A modest increase in DPV might help to end the dream team of 5 escorts rolling PvE. Except for KDF cruisers there is no reason to fly anything but an escort. So suck it up escort pilots, cruisers online is still far away, if anything escort tanking has gone way over board, either that needs to be nerfed, or cruisers need a dmg buff.

2) Sci ships: Need a buff, and i also really like the idea for it to be a team buff. I have brought a similar idea up a few times already. Why not make those Team boni something that is specific for each sci ship, eg. Nebula increases Acc, Intrepid Hull regen...

THis would up sci viability in solo pve, where they suck the most. And if we put a limit to the buff stacking it would prevent 5 sci ships from being the new got to combo for PvP arenas. Give us a reason to bring sci on our teams.

However, since the KDF has already lost the escort race, the KDF is in desperate need of some worthwhile upgrades as well.
But....this is a pvp forum...
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 423
# 18
08-28-2012, 07:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by falloutx23 View Post
But....this is a pvp forum...
A little history less in Star Trek Online? NOTHING gets changed without FIRST ensuring it doesn?t adversely affect PVE. PVE comes FIRST and FOREMOST!!! That is Cryptic?s business model; we are the bottom of their barrel, the grime beneath their feet. Basically, they don?t really give a hoot about PVP, so don?t make PVP plans without thinking about PVE.
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 846
# 19
08-28-2012, 07:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by havam View Post
I like the general direction and think its a good idea. Two quick things:

1) Since there is absolutely nothing else to do in this game but DPS, I like the cruiser changes. A modest increase in DPV might help to end the dream team of 5 escorts rolling PvE. Except for KDF cruisers there is no reason to fly anything but an escort. So suck it up escort pilots, cruisers online is still far away, if anything escort tanking has gone way over board, either that needs to be nerfed, or cruisers need a dmg buff.

2) Sci ships: Need a buff, and i also really like the idea for it to be a team buff. I have brought a similar idea up a few times already. Why not make those Team boni something that is specific for each sci ship, eg. Nebula increases Acc, Intrepid Hull regen...

THis would up sci viability in solo pve, where they suck the most. And if we put a limit to the buff stacking it would prevent 5 sci ships from being the new got to combo for PvP arenas. Give us a reason to bring sci on our teams.

However, since the KDF has already lost the escort race, the KDF is in desperate need of some worthwhile upgrades as well.
If you want to increase your dps as a cruiser for pve, equip single cannons and Torp Spread. It's not terribly hard guys. Also Eject Warp plasma is pretty sexy zone control, for quite a few of the STFs, (KA and cure particularly) and Fleet Actions. needed zone control even if everyone's running around in scorts.

Solo PVE is auto win, it doesn't need a buff, I say this as someone that flies an eng and cruiser.

Quit trying to balance the game for LOLPvE. It's not going to work, and will only screw up pvp in the process.

Also increasing Cruisers Burst Damage (which is what you are doing by increasing damage per volley. It's the EXACT same reason why DCs Blow Ass and DHCs rule the field) will also greatly swing things further to the cruisers favor in pvp. Stop it.

This is how you fix the DPS Race of pve. Start having actual NPCs on the field and not just target dummies. Make it so that zone control is even more important, as is healing and you fix the problem without screwing PvP.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 423
# 20
08-28-2012, 07:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostyandfrosty View Post
If you want to increase your dps as a cruiser for pve, equip single cannons and Torp Spread. It's not terribly hard guys. Also Eject Warp plasma is pretty sexy zone control, for quite a few of the STFs, (KA and cure particularly) and Fleet Actions. needed zone control even if everyone's running around in scorts.

Solo PVE is auto win, it doesn't need a buff, I say this as someone that flies an eng and cruiser.

Quit trying to balance the game for LOLPvE. It's not going to work, and will only screw up pvp in the process.

Also increasing Cruisers Burst Damage (which is what you are doing by increasing damage per volley. It's the EXACT same reason why DCs Blow Ass and DHCs rule the field) will also greatly swing things further to the cruisers favor in pvp. Stop it.

Ummm.. DHC and DC don't work at all like my proposal. DHC actually do more damage. Stop posting on assumptions and actually reply to relevant information!!! See I can be bossy too!
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