Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 735
# 1 Fleet Norgh, a joke?
08-28-2012, 12:26 AM
So I had a look at the stats on the fleet Norgh. Let's compare it to the Fleet Defiant

Norgh
Hull: 16,500
Shield mod: 0.66
Turnrate: 22
Weapon slots: 4+2
Eng Consoles: 3
Sci Consoles: 3
Tac Consoles: 3
Boff stations: 4+3+3+2

Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit (Defiant)
Hull: 33,000
Shield mod: 0.9
Turnrate: 17
Weapon slots: 4+3
Eng Consoles: 3
Sci Consoles: 2
Tac Consoles: 5
Boff stations: 4+3+2+2+1

Norgh vs Defiant:
Hull - 50% less
Shields - 36% less
Turnrate - 29% better
Weapons - 1 less
Consoles - 2 less Tac, one more Sci
Boff stations - One more Ltc slot, one less ensign slot.
Cloak - Battlecloak vs Regular Cloak (and we all know cloaking when in combat is certain death. Anyone who ever flew a BoP in PvP knows battlecloak is a joke)

So how does it compare? What can the Norgh do better than the defiant?

The Norgh has the same hull as the To'duj fighter, combined with the lowest shield ever seen on a BoP/Escort. It's pretty obvious this ship has to strike fast and hard, as it is not likely to survive any kind of counterattack.

So how it the Norghs ability to strike hard and fast? It has 2 tac consoles less than the new escorts, and one weapon less. This is a pretty severe disadvantage! Can the extra LtC slot make up for this? I think not. At best, it can help upgrade your HYT2 to a HYT3, or your BO2 to a BO3. Sure, this can help a little, but not as much as two extra tac consoles! Any other use of this slot would be to increase your survivability, but let's face it. It's not gonna hold up in sustained battle with THAT low hull and shields. It has too little shields to be able to take a DHC salvoe to the face, and too little hull to survive bleedthrough damage. In PvP or against NPCs, this ship is going to be the victim of countless one-shots.

So what could be done, to make the Norgh the BoP it's supposed to be? Here is my suggestion:

Hull - 20,000
Shields - 0,8
Turnrate: 25
Weapon slots: 4+2
Eng Consoles: 2
Sci Consoles: 3
Tac Consoles: 4
Boff stations: 4+3+3+2

Survivability:
The hull is still extremely low. I increased it a little bit, to help prevent one-shot through shields. Still, it's nowhere near enough to even think about hull tanking. With the shields gone, it WILL pop. Becaue of this, I gave it a bit more shields. Still not as much as a Defiant, but enough to give it one or two more seconds of staying power. I also took away an eng console, to remove a bit of it's durability.

Damage:
I gave it a bit better turnrate. With a 20k hull, it SHOULD be able to out-turn anything in the game. I gave it a 4th tac console, to increase damage a bit. This ship is not going to stay in a fight for long periods anyway, so being able to deliver a decent amount of damage is crucial. It's still one tac console and one weapon short of a fed escort, but at least not miles behind.

This in my opinion would be a much more dynamic BoP. A ship that can actually have a chance to make a difference. Still a lot weaker than the Defiant or the Fleet AE, both in attack and defence, but at least not extremely far behind.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 161
# 2
08-28-2012, 12:46 AM
I think you use it either as a pure hit and run ship, or as a science ship. I definitely think they should give it more hull/shields, but you have to be careful because that extra Lt. Comm. Sci power could potentially be very powerful.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,028
# 3
08-28-2012, 02:14 AM
I don't think it's a joke.
I think it's an experiment on Cryptic's side to give us something different.

However in an attempt to balance the familiar maneuverability of the BoP with the second LtC slot this ship is wayyy too much of a compromise all around.
Too many weak spots for its potential flexibility.
It lacks a 10th console slot as well as hull and shields.
IMO they should redo this ship.
A lot.

My personal proposal would be to give us several BoPs that are only different in their console layout.

Keep the BO setup like we know it:
4/3/2/2.

Use the 3/3/3 console layout of the standard T5 BoP as a basis and give us 3 BoPs for now with a 4th in each category.
Make the Norgh the one with the 4th science console if you wish.
The way it's now it seems geared for support anyways.
Just make it a workable supporter instead of an overspecialized giant shuttle.

One additional model with a 4th Eng console (Hegh'ta for example? It's big enough) and we'd have a well-rounded trio at our disposal.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 735
# 4
08-28-2012, 02:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
I don't think it's a joke.
I think it's an experiment on Cryptic's side to give us something different.

However in an attempt to balance the familiar maneuverability of the BoP with the second LtC slot this ship is wayyy too much of a compromise all around.
Too many weak spots for its potential flexibility.
It lacks a 10th console slot as well as hull and shields.
IMO they should redo this ship.
A lot.

My personal proposal would be to give us several BoPs that are only different in their console layout.

Keep the BO setup like we know it:
4/3/2/2.

Use the 3/3/3 console layout of the standard T5 BoP as a basis and give us 3 BoPs for now with a 4th in each category.
Make the Norgh the one with the 4th science console if you wish.
The way it's now it seems geared for support anyways.
Just make it a workable supporter instead of an overspecialized giant shuttle.

One additional model with a 4th Eng console (Hegh'ta for example? It's big enough) and we'd have a well-rounded trio at our disposal.
Just a BoP with an extra console? That's not even enough to get it in line with the current T5 escorts, like the MVAM and the Defiant. Much less with the Fleet escorts or the Jem'hadar ship.

I like the concept that Cryptic is trying to give us here, but it's flawed in 2 points imo.

1. The hull and shields are so low, that any big hit from another player, or a borg cube, will just smash it. This is even a problem with the retrofit B'rel, and that one is stronger than the Norgh. Being constantly one-shotted is no fun.

2. It does not deliver hard enough a "hit" to be a hit-n-run ship. 3 tac consoles has always been the weak point of BoPs compared to other escort-like ship. Now that many of the other ships get 5, having 3 becomes a serious disadvantage.

Ofc, the advantage of the second Ltc has to be countered, but this is an advantage that generally will take time to take advantage of, via sci abilities. And let's face it, in this ship you'll be forced to run away very fast. I think taking away one console, sci or eng, will be a sever enough advantage, putting your total console count 2 below your opponents.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,028
# 5
08-28-2012, 02:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dassemsto View Post
Just a BoP with an extra console? That's not even enough to get it in line with the current T5 escorts, like the MVAM and the Defiant. Much less with the Fleet escorts or the Jem'hadar ship.

I like the concept that Cryptic is trying to give us here, but it's flawed in 2 points imo.

1. The hull and shields are so low, that any big hit from another player, or a borg cube, will just smash it. This is even a problem with the retrofit B'rel, and that one is stronger than the Norgh. Being constantly one-shotted is no fun.

2. It does not deliver hard enough a "hit" to be a hit-n-run ship. 3 tac consoles has always been the weak point of BoPs compared to other escort-like ship. Now that many of the other ships get 5, having 3 becomes a serious disadvantage.

Ofc, the advantage of the second Ltc has to be countered, but this is an advantage that generally will take time to take advantage of, via sci abilities. And let's face it, in this ship you'll be forced to run away very fast. I think taking away one console, sci or eng, will be a sever enough advantage, putting your total console count 2 below your opponents.
I used the Fleet Hoh'0SuS as a template in this context.
It has a 4th console in the TAC department and the familiar 4/3/2/2 BO sertup.

http://www.stowiki.org/Fleet_Hoh%27SuS_Bird-of-Prey

It also has additional hull and shields.

Also don't forget that all fleet ships that are based on a T5 ship have one more console on top of an existing setup.
So giving a BoP 5 TAC consoles would require to remove one from another area even though the T5 BoPs all have 3/3/3.
It breaks the mold, not to mention we're running into the risk of creating an overlap with the Raptors.

In addition it would make sense for those who'd like to run a science in a BoP to actually have a ship with more than 3 science consoles.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,308
# 6
08-28-2012, 12:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dassemsto View Post
So I had a look at the stats on the fleet Norgh. Let's compare it to the Fleet Defiant

Norgh
Hull: 16,500
Shield mod: 0.66
Turnrate: 22
Weapon slots: 4+2
Eng Consoles: 3
Sci Consoles: 3
Tac Consoles: 3
Boff stations: 4+3+3+2

Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit (Defiant)
Hull: 33,000
Shield mod: 0.9
Turnrate: 17
Weapon slots: 4+3
Eng Consoles: 3
Sci Consoles: 2
Tac Consoles: 5
Boff stations: 4+3+2+2+1

Norgh vs Defiant:
Hull - 50% less
Shields - 36% less
Turnrate - 29% better
Weapons - 1 less
Consoles - 2 less Tac, one more Sci
Boff stations - One more Ltc slot, one less ensign slot.
Cloak - Battlecloak vs Regular Cloak (and we all know cloaking when in combat is certain death. Anyone who ever flew a BoP in PvP knows battlecloak is a joke)

So how does it compare? What can the Norgh do better than the defiant?

The Norgh has the same hull as the To'duj fighter, combined with the lowest shield ever seen on a BoP/Escort. It's pretty obvious this ship has to strike fast and hard, as it is not likely to survive any kind of counterattack.

So how it the Norghs ability to strike hard and fast? It has 2 tac consoles less than the new escorts, and one weapon less. This is a pretty severe disadvantage! Can the extra LtC slot make up for this? I think not. At best, it can help upgrade your HYT2 to a HYT3, or your BO2 to a BO3. Sure, this can help a little, but not as much as two extra tac consoles! Any other use of this slot would be to increase your survivability, but let's face it. It's not gonna hold up in sustained battle with THAT low hull and shields. It has too little shields to be able to take a DHC salvoe to the face, and too little hull to survive bleedthrough damage. In PvP or against NPCs, this ship is going to be the victim of countless one-shots.

So what could be done, to make the Norgh the BoP it's supposed to be? Here is my suggestion:

Hull - 20,000
Shields - 0,8
Turnrate: 25
Weapon slots: 4+2
Eng Consoles: 2
Sci Consoles: 3
Tac Consoles: 4
Boff stations: 4+3+3+2

Survivability:
The hull is still extremely low. I increased it a little bit, to help prevent one-shot through shields. Still, it's nowhere near enough to even think about hull tanking. With the shields gone, it WILL pop. Becaue of this, I gave it a bit more shields. Still not as much as a Defiant, but enough to give it one or two more seconds of staying power. I also took away an eng console, to remove a bit of it's durability.

Damage:
I gave it a bit better turnrate. With a 20k hull, it SHOULD be able to out-turn anything in the game. I gave it a 4th tac console, to increase damage a bit. This ship is not going to stay in a fight for long periods anyway, so being able to deliver a decent amount of damage is crucial. It's still one tac console and one weapon short of a fed escort, but at least not miles behind.

This in my opinion would be a much more dynamic BoP. A ship that can actually have a chance to make a difference. Still a lot weaker than the Defiant or the Fleet AE, both in attack and defence, but at least not extremely far behind.

Sure sure almost all this is good. Certainly, good stuff, bop is just NOT stacking up with the new fleet bases. Good idea.

Battle Cloak is not a joke. If you can't seem to make it work its likely best you just don't use a BOP. Use a raptor or something if you want the Decloak and strike. If you're a Sci kid, don't know what to tell you. Battle Cloak works.

Cheers and happy flying.
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,757
# 7
08-28-2012, 12:35 PM
It will certainly take some clever BOffing to keep the NingTao alive. Unfortunately it may also make it too weaker as a HnR vessel.
Roy Hatch (stryker) soldier, friend, and good man.
1945-2014
RIP
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 735
# 8
08-28-2012, 12:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
Sure sure almost all this is good. Certainly, good stuff, bop is just NOT stacking up with the new fleet bases. Good idea.

Battle Cloak is not a joke. If you can't seem to make it work its likely best you just don't use a BOP. Use a raptor or something if you want the Decloak and strike. If you're a Sci kid, don't know what to tell you. Battle Cloak works.

Cheers and happy flying.
In hundreds and hundreds of arena matches flow in raptor, heghta and retro-brels, I have yet to see any application of the battle cloak that is superior to regular cloak used on a raptor.

In hundreds and hundreds of arena matches as a Fed, I have yet to see any BoP use battlecloak to their advantage. All I see is people who cloak early, before they have had a chance to make a difference, people who cloak too late, and does not survive it, and people who don't cloak before the last of their opponents is dead.

Sure, there are some strange builds out there, like healers and CCs, but frankly that's a waste of the BoPs killing-potential. If you wanna fly a healer, grab a cruiser, if you wanna fly a CC ship... STO is not really the game for you atm...

Anyway, let's not turn this into a Cloak vs BCloak debate, let's agree that some people see it as an advantage and some don't. Let's call it a situational advantage and move on. I'd much rather debate the other sides of the build. I'd hate for the Norgh to be a flop, but I'd also hate for it to be OP.


Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
I used the Fleet Hoh'0SuS as a template in this context.
It has a 4th console in the TAC department and the familiar 4/3/2/2 BO sertup.

http://www.stowiki.org/Fleet_Hoh%27SuS_Bird-of-Prey

It also has additional hull and shields.
The difference in hull is negligable to the hegh'ta. from 24k to 24.75k the difference in shields is about 12%. The only significant difference from the Hegh'ta is the 4th tac console. The Ho'sus is a minor improvement of the Hegh'ta, and I can't see this ship being wort spending a single Zen on as it is. The least they could do would be to add 3k hull and an ensign OR a 3rd aft weapon. But this thread was about the Norgh joke, the Ho'sus Joke belongs in another thread!
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,028
# 9
08-28-2012, 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dassemsto View Post
The difference in hull is negligable to the hegh'ta. from 24k to 24.75k the difference in shields is about 12%. The only significant difference from the Hegh'ta is the 4th tac console. The Ho'sus is a minor improvement of the Hegh'ta, and I can't see this ship being wort spending a single Zen on as it is. The least they could do would be to add 3k hull and an ensign OR a 3rd aft weapon. But this thread was about the Norgh joke, the Ho'sus Joke belongs in another thread!
The Hegh'ta is not really the ideal ship to compare it to.
The Hoh'Sus has a turnrate of 22 as opposed to the Hegh'ta's 21.
The ship to compare it to would be the B'rel, giving us an increase of 3750.
Consequently I could easily see a Fleet Hegh'ta with a turnrate of 21 something in the area of 28,000 points of hull.
But since you insist on calling this a "joke" and basically seem to consider every opinion that does not agree with yours to be not worth considering I'd better leave now.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 273
# 10
08-29-2012, 05:23 AM
I think the Fleet Ning'tao/Norgh BoP was intended to be something along the lines of the ultimate glass cannon. They just, IMHO, missed the mark a bit on usability.

A hair more hull, say 20k base, shields up to about par for the Qin (.83), same BOff's and one of the two following console layouts: 2 ENG / 4 SCI / 4 TAC or 1 ENG / 4 SCI / 5 TAC.

Ho'sus ought to be the better rounded bird, keep the current layout for consoles, and pick up that ENS Uni it's missing.

JM2c, and certainly not intended as iron-clad perfectly balanced suggestions. More of a starting point, really.
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