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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 889
# 31
08-30-2012, 02:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Not really, because the difference in damage per volley is so infinitesimally low. On the numbers I provided, regular transhpasics are only doing 2.73% more damage per volley. Even a small increase in firing rate is enough to overcome that.

That being said, there does seem to be some weirdness going on here -- MT's purple MK 12 regular transphasic was only doing 0.49% more damage per volley disregarding modifiers. Seems maybe like one type is benefiting from spec disproportionately? Sounds like a math bug on the part of Cryptic. Guess I'll need to do some further testing.
I just redid my testing and I half agree. There is a 100 damage difference between plain transphasic and Rapid fire. So one rapid fire bonus shot is worth around 31 to 45 (*) normal transphasic shots depending on your damage boost. So with 3 torpedoes launchers rapid are better as you will get bonus shots, but my testing showed with 4 torpedoes rapid are lower DPS. You can pretty consistently with 4 launchers fire 45 torpedoes in a row without missing a cycle and without Rapid getting a bonus shot.

Things get a little trickier once you add in DMG x3 and assuming a 100% hit ratio. It only takes between 11 to 16 (*) shots from normal Transphasic with DMGx3 to make up for each bonus shot rapid get without damage consoles or around 16shots with damage consoles. With 3 normal Transphasic and 1 cluster it normally takes over 11 shots before a cycle is missed and the 4th launcher can fire and it takes well over 40shots on average before no doffs are trigged and you are sitting waiting cooldown to fire. This is also why I do not use ACC, unless I miss more than 1 shot in 25 ACC gives less DPS. For some reason torpedoes feel like they miss a lot less than other weapons.

*Without any damage items on ship 11 shots, with damage consoles 16 shots. Same for first number 31 shots without damage consoles, 45 with.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 160
# 32
08-30-2012, 04:19 AM
Anyone else try hitting bare hull with a transphasic and compare it to hitting with shields up and not noticeing a stark contrast in damage?! I only tested this on non rapid fire ones
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# 33
08-30-2012, 04:50 AM
I get arond double damage on hull. 2.2k with shields up, 4.4k shields down. Crits 5k hull shields up, 10k shields down although crit damage seems to jump around a lot sometimes being much lower or higher.
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# 34
08-30-2012, 05:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pottsey5g View Post
I just redid my testing and I half agree. There is a 100 damage difference between plain transphasic and Rapid fire. So one rapid fire bonus shot is worth around 31 to 45 (*) normal transphasic shots depending on your damage boost. So with 3 torpedoes launchers rapid are better as you will get bonus shots, but my testing showed with 4 torpedoes rapid are lower DPS. You can pretty consistently with 4 launchers fire 45 torpedoes in a row without missing a cycle and without Rapid getting a bonus shot.

Things get a little trickier once you add in DMG x3 and assuming a 100% hit ratio. It only takes between 11 to 16 (*) shots from normal Transphasic with DMGx3 to make up for each bonus shot rapid get without damage consoles or around 16shots with damage consoles. With 3 normal Transphasic and 1 cluster it normally takes over 11 shots before a cycle is missed and the 4th launcher can fire and it takes well over 40shots on average before no doffs are trigged and you are sitting waiting cooldown to fire. This is also why I do not use ACC, unless I miss more than 1 shot in 25 ACC gives less DPS. For some reason torpedoes feel like they miss a lot less than other weapons.

*Without any damage items on ship 11 shots, with damage consoles 16 shots. Same for first number 31 shots without damage consoles, 45 with.
Another factor might be that it can be difficult to tell if you are firing shots back to back or not. For example, if you have an extra half second between launches I doubt you are likely to notice it, but these situations do end up happening because torpedoes have an x.5s cooldown. It might even be that an extra second could be perceived as firing back to back, though I'm sure in that case you could tell if you watched your torps closely enough.
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# 35
08-30-2012, 05:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Another factor might be that it can be difficult to tell if you are firing shots back to back or not. For example, if you have an extra half second between launches I doubt you are likely to notice it, but these situations do end up happening because torpedoes have an x.5s cooldown. It might even be that an extra second could be perceived as firing back to back, though I'm sure in that case you could tell if you watched your torps closely enough.
That?s a good point and there could well be times when I missed half a second. But another way to look at it is my 4th torpedo even after its ready to fire often has to wait 20seconds or longer to get a chance to fire. That to me suggests that 3 torpedo launchers are most of the time maxing out the fire rate. The main reason I use the cluster is I found a 4th normal Transphasic would spend the majority of the battle not firing. A cluster with 45seconds reload fits in nicely for the odd cycle when the doffs do not trigger.

EDIT: Going do some tests and see how long it takes for the 4th torp launcher to fire.
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# 36
08-30-2012, 09:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
Did the experiment include popping Aux2Batt before TBR? I was playing with hull attacks but running a plasma spread. Transphasics make more sense now that I think about it.

Thanks for the maths Jorf.
Damnit dont spread out more hax dude! :@

Oh well Trannies are still ****ty so lets close the topic kkthxchnktranny
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# 37
08-30-2012, 08:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pottsey5g View Post
That?s a good point and there could well be times when I missed half a second. But another way to look at it is my 4th torpedo even after its ready to fire often has to wait 20seconds or longer to get a chance to fire. That to me suggests that 3 torpedo launchers are most of the time maxing out the fire rate.
Well, the model assumes that you're on target the entire time. In real life that's not always going to be true, and when the enemy is out of your arc torpedoes with a higher cooldown benefit the most because those cooldowns will be ticking down the entire time.

That being said, looking at the numbers, without doffs adding a fourth torpedo of either type increases dps by 33.33%. With 3 doffs though, adding a fourth regular transphasic incurs a DPS uplift of 36.20% (the number is greater than 33% because you get more doff procs when you fire more torpedoes, letting you fire more torpedoes which in turn grant you more doff procs!), while the DPS uplift from the rapids is a 'mere' 25.98% (we are running into big diminishing returns.) There are some other interesting trends as well, like when you're running three torpedoes the rapids benefit more from doffs than the regulars, (20.24% increase with no doffs, 22.44% for one, 22.56% for two, 20.30% for three) which is the opposite of what you would expect.

Again, keep in mind that all of these numbers assume 100% time on target. The longer you stay off target the less that rapids, projectile doffs, and extra torpedoes will be of benefit.

That being said, the model is completely sound as far as I can tell, assuming that the global cooldown and the chances to proc a projectile weapons officer are what Cryptic says they are. If you can't get a sizable DPS increase from running four torpedoes, you might want to work at staying on target for a larger portion of the match. Personally, I do notice some sizeable gaps in my firing cycle running three regular transphasic torps along with three doffs. Sometimes you get lucky with the procs, sometimes you don't.

Last edited by hurleybird; 08-30-2012 at 08:37 PM.
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# 38
08-30-2012, 09:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Well, the model assumes that you're on target the entire time. In real life that's not always going to be true, and when the enemy is out of your arc torpedoes with a higher cooldown benefit the most because those cooldowns will be ticking down the entire time.

That being said, looking at the numbers, without doffs adding a fourth torpedo of either type increases dps by 33.33%. With 3 doffs though, adding a fourth regular transphasic incurs a DPS uplift of 36.20% (the number is greater than 33% because you get more doff procs when you fire more torpedoes, letting you fire more torpedoes which in turn grant you more doff procs!), while the DPS uplift from the rapids is a 'mere' 25.98% (we are running into big diminishing returns.) There are some other interesting trends as well, like when you're running three torpedoes the rapids benefit more from doffs than the regulars, (20.24% increase with no doffs, 22.44% for one, 22.56% for two, 20.30% for three) which is the opposite of what you would expect.

Again, keep in mind that all of these numbers assume 100% time on target. The longer you stay off target the less that rapids, projectile doffs, and extra torpedoes will be of benefit.

That being said, the model is completely sound as far as I can tell, assuming that the global cooldown and the chances to proc a projectile weapons officer are what Cryptic says they are. If you can't get a sizable DPS increase from running four torpedoes, you might want to work at staying on target for a larger portion of the match. Personally, I do notice some sizeable gaps in my firing cycle running three regular transphasic torps along with three doffs. Sometimes you get lucky with the procs, sometimes you don't.
I noticed that the doff procs more often or seems to, when I ran double barrel plasma, compared to trans torps. Of course, it could be me just being utterly sloshed when I do play sto anymore.
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# 39
08-31-2012, 04:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Well, the model assumes that you're on target the entire time. In real life that's not always going to be true, and when the enemy is out of your arc torpedoes with a higher cooldown benefit the most because those cooldowns will be ticking down the entire time.....
I think you might have missed my point. The 4th torpedo launcher both normal and rapid are failing to fire due to congestion. It seems to me 3 launcher hit the max fire rate most of the time. With 4 rapid torpedoes with 100% target lock you can spend 5 minutes waiting with 1 launcher not being able to fire. So how can your numbers be showing such a high DPS increase? 1 extra torpedo every 5 minutes if you are lucky is surly a tiny DPS increase?

My testing is done 100% time on target and I stripped off all my damage boosts so the target would not die fast. But my testing could well have human errors in it.

?With 3 doffs though, adding a fourth regular transphasic incurs a DPS uplift of 36.20% (the number is greater than 33% because you get more doff procs when you fire more torpedoes, letting you fire more torpedoes which in turn grant you more doff procs! ), while the DPS uplift from the rapids is a 'mere' 25.98% (we are running into big diminishing returns.)?
This is why I think something is wrong with your testing. I would have thought a 4th Rapid will add about 1% DPS if you are lucky. How can shooting 1 extra torpedo every few 100 torpedoes give 20% extra DPS? A 4th rapid will spend 99% of the time waiting to fire. A 4th regular transphasic is little better but still spending a very large amount of if its time waiting to fire. There is a DPS increase for a 4th regular transphasic but it has to be much smaller DPS increase then what you see from adding a 2 or 3 launcher.

Perhaps we are going about this the wrong way. What if we set a timeframe like 300seconds and record how many torpedoes are fired? I would expect something like 147 torpedoes for 3 launchers (8 sec fire rate) and 3 doffs and perhaps 148 torpedoes with 4 launchers (8 sec fire rate) and 3 doffs. With 3 regular transphasic I would expect to see around 140 toropdoes and the 4th launcher would be around 147 torpedoes. All numbers give or take 1% due to doff random trigger rates.

Keep up the good work, I am looking forward to seeing your final numbers once we get to the bottom of this.
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# 40
08-31-2012, 05:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pottsey5g View Post
I think you might have missed my point. The 4th torpedo launcher both normal and rapid are failing to fire due to congestion. It seems to me 3 launcher hit the max fire rate most of the time. With 4 rapid torpedoes with 100% target lock you can spend 5 minutes waiting with 1 launcher not being able to fire. So how can your numbers be showing such a high DPS increase? 1 extra torpedo every 5 minutes if you are lucky is surly a tiny DPS increase?

My testing is done 100% time on target and I stripped off all my damage boosts so the target would not die fast. But my testing could well have human errors in it.
Well, I'm doing shift work right now but definitely want to get to the bottom of it when I'm on my offshift.

Either:
  • Your testing is wrong
  • My calculations are wrong (but I really don't think so)
  • Cryptic gave us the wrong numbers and/or there is a math bug.
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