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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,165
# 11
09-01-2012, 06:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
There is no 'interesting synergy' for tac captains when in other ships. Its something that is broken and gave tac captains an advantage they were not designed to have.

It is not worthless. A tac captain in a science ship STILL has the same damage output via science that SCIENCE captains have now.

He has extra oomph with the guns on the ship and if that wasnt enough, he can lower timers AND damage resists on the target.


Incorrect. A tac captain in a science ship has EXACTLY the same heals and debuffs in a science ship that a sci captain has now. Heals has nothing to do with the tac capt damage buffs.

Yes, a tac capt is the damage dealer..with weapons. In a science ship his guns will do a lot more damage than a sci capt will put out while still doing the same exact damage the sci capt does via science abilities currently.

Actually even more so since sensor analysis significantly boosts weapon damage.
no it is correct. i said captain powers not ship powers the tac captain has damage buffs instead of self heals or debuffs. FOMM is a skill with a counter that has 66% up time.

a tac focusing on the weapons damage on a sci ship is doing it wrong. its all about the TBR damage and FBP damage is some one is dumb enough to kill them self with it. the weapons are just gravy, and should proboly have transphaiscs in them for extra direct hull damage. tac skills not buffing the science skills absolutely makes the tac/sci combo worthless, i shouldn't have to explain this to someone who actually knows what their talking about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
there are no non-kinetic damage abilities now. All science damage abilities were switched to kinetic. There is also no lack of synergy between sci ships and sci captains.. the abilities work (albeit majorly nerfed) but the stats those abilities are based upon have been neutered and in some cases rendered useless.


sci ships dont need buffs. The sci abilities need to be fixed from their broken condition.
yes there is. tach beam and charged particle burst deal drain damage, its not any energy type and is only resisted by power insulators. FBP doesn't deal kinetic damage ether, its an exotic damage that is resisted by 'all energy' armor. tac buffs don't buff the drain damage, a sci captain that could buff drain damage would make the sci/sci combo as good as it was back before the skill tree change, science they would have their bread and butter back.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
I disagree. Engineering and science captain are balanced and do not need a buff.
science captains are crucial in team battle, alone they cant exploit their debuffs to their full potential, only a sci/escort comes close. they are fine, working as intended. engineers are 100% terrible. compared to a tac captain, they gain 2 self heals, 2 worthless energy skills, and have maybe a quarter the damage dealing potential. they are like the easy difficulty setting for this game, its the hardest to get killed in, and getting killed breaks immersion. a LONG time a go an eng/escort was a good combo, before doffs and sets. now their extra survivability is redundant, and they cant even spike as hard as a tac cruiser.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
A science captain in an escort enhances the damage via science debuff and can add damage and hate with holo fleet. Engineer capt can make an escort put out good damage with his power manipulation abilities. However, neither sci nor engineer can match or exceed a tac captain damage output in an escort.
oh no, not holo fleet


Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
On the other hand, tac capt always makes cruisers and sci ships perform better WITH engineering and science boff abilities because of that universal damage boost.
yes. they are doing their job. a tac in a cruiser can be set up to deal a large amount of damage over time, at the experience of team support. for pure support, an eng doesn't have anything that helps him do his job beter then a tac captain in his place, other then self heals to fall back on. something that is again made redundant with the bonuses of doffs and sets. this is why engineers are terrible. instead of nerfing a tac captain so its terrible too, engineers should be buffed. and the synergy between sci captains and sci ships should be buffed, along with the synergy between eng captains and cruisers. a tac has synergy with all energy and all kinetic damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
It is precisely that universal damage boost, which only came about post-f2p when the game was dumbed down significantly, which is the source of the imbalance.
tac buffing not just weapons is a new thing? thats not how i remember it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
There is no way to 'buff' science and engineer either. The captain abilities ARE balanced because they were made pre-f2p ..when the game was balanced.

What changed was the damage type and stats the abilities were based upon.

By RETURNING science and engineering damage abilities to their own damage types the tactical captain will not have the extreme bonus to performance in other ship types that he has now.
balanced is a very strong word. these sci skills ALWAYS were the same damage type they are now. the only real change was the insulators skill canceling out shield drain and kicking energy drain in the nuts. the damage skill are same as always.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
The great dumbing down of the game in the F2P patch did one thing : it boosted tactical captains to ridiculous levels.

Why?

The old skill tree looked like this:

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/wordp...s/STO%2021.jpg

Tactical captains back then had the same decision to make as science and engineering captains when it came to how they dealt their damage. They had to CHOOSE which weapon type to put points in.

Post F2P that was squeezed into the dumbed down 'all energy, all projectile' categories we have currently.

The effect? By training just energy weapons they became superb at all energy weapon types.
all that did was make all energy types as cheap as phasers and disrupters to use. and benefited all captains in all ships. several tactical consoles on top of the skill point bonus make the difference, you need both.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Science captains? Still had to choose a minimum of 3 stats between 8+ different stats so they could use just ONE boff ability effectively. If a sci ship wants to use 2 sci abilities to fight back forget it, theres no way to skill the ship for it unless you ignore basics like power settings or weapons or healing abilities.
on the current sci skill tree you spec super cheap flow cap to buff drain and some weapons proc, farely cheap partial generators to buff kinetic and exotic damage, graviton to buff pushes and pulls but is counter intuitive for dealing damage, the rest are expensive and not terribly needed. decompiler is good with VM, and buffs tric stun and PSW stun by a split second, so not needed unless VM is a big part of your build. the other buffs or resists confuses and jams, so worthless, and inertial dampeners just makes it easier for TDR to damage you. everything you need as a sci captain in a sci ship is tier 3 or below, and some times decompilers. what are you complaining about, seriously. on my tac cruiser i have to fully spec into flow cap and particles to if i want to buff my weapon proc, tetryon glider, EWP, TBR, all at the expense of other skills. poor sci captains

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Engineers lost a bunch of their skills to science (shield based) and their primary stats for boosting engineering abilities were absorbed into science category..which doesnt matter anyway... but the primary thing engineers lost in the F2P patch was that their offensive abilities became impotent due to the buffing of tac team and attack pattern abilities. Before a tac team 1 had no hope of counteracting a boarding party 3. Now? LOL... click! its gone.
your not remembering things right. tt forever removed the always worthless boarding party, and all the debuffing attack pasterns, even before they distributed shields. the shield skills being in sci or eng doesn't mater, they all get speced into by everyone.
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# 12
09-01-2012, 07:43 PM
Why should *ANY* buffs or nerfs happen just because you noticed how powerful they can be in PVP?

You're asking for changes that would significantly affect Player vs. Environment gameplay, which it doesn't matter there if it's overpowered.

No changes should be made just because of how unbalanced it turns out to be in PVP.
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# 13
09-01-2012, 10:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cusashorn View Post
Why should *ANY* buffs or nerfs happen just because you noticed how powerful they can be in PVP?

You're asking for changes that would significantly affect Player vs. Environment gameplay, which it doesn't matter there if it's overpowered.

No changes should be made just because of how unbalanced it turns out to be in PVP.
Because that's how we got into this mess in the first place. All sci abilities got nerf'd because of PvP and now they are useless in PvE, unless you min/max and sacrifice all your subsystem power to Aux.

Particularly against the borg. A lot of sci skills don't make a dent on the borg. They seem to have a lot of resist, as well as their large HP. Scramble sensors has no effect on cubes or the gateway, and it only confuses spheres for like a few split seconds, if at all.

If you put five intrepids, with sci characters, in ISE, I garrantee you the results would be god awful.
If you put five defiants, with Tac captains, in ISE, everyone gets the optional.
And yes, IMHO, it would still be possible for Five cruisers and engineers to get the optional in ISE. Assuming the whole team was competent.

---
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
so you want to destroy an interesting synergy, and make a captain/ship combo worthless? i have thought about this a lot and its been debated at length in the pvp forum. its a tactical captain's job to deal damage first and foremost, thats all there is too him. he doesn't have self heals or debuffs to fall back on. arbitrarily taking that ability away, making exceptions, its a slippery slope.
Fire on my Mark is a Debuff. FYI.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
engineering captains are terrible, and science captains are only good in a premade. both are overdue for a buff, thats why you are all coming to the conclusion that tac/sci is overpowered. really, a tac captain in absolutely everything works best right now. the other 2 captain types need to be brought to a tac's level. a tac is perfect as is, and is the only interesting type to play right now imo, nerfing it like that would destroy what i and many others enjoy, buffing the other types up to a tacs level would just make them fun too.

And as for engineering being useless, they are tanks and healers. If you think they're useless, you're doing it wrong or don't understand it. My main is Engineering. I do my job. I'm a TANK and a HEALER. I fly the Sci Oddy variant. I still pull around 3,000 DPS. But according to parsers, I run about 1,500 HPS.
Engineering Team III heals 11,500 HP and with my DOFFs, I pop it every 15 seconds.
Aux to SIF III, with my Aux power up, gives about +40 damage resistance for 10 seconds and +9,000 HP, naively with 15 second cooldown. My Extend Shields II, gives 27% Resist to Shields, and 159 shield regen every sec for 30 seconds, 15 second cooldown after 30 seconds. I also have Hazard Emitters I, and Transfer Shield Strength II, I used 2x EPtS 1 and 2x RSP 1 to keep myself alive, along with my engineering heals RSF III and Miracle Worker III.

I can support and maintain the health of 2-3 players at a time with my hotkeys, I am quick. I can keep a team alive in mobs, or take all the aggro from a tac cube and tank it on my own. Cube aggro'd in ISE? No problem. I distract it and pull it away while 4 others work on the remaining spheres and gateway. I am spec'd into threat generation with pride I can survive any PvE encounter. If I have died, I made a serious mistake or got caught up typing.

My mines and FAW keep OHKO HY Plasma away for the most part, but since the last nerf of the borg dreadnaught plasmas, I can now survive most HY plasma hits. Not many cruiser captains can say the same.

This is getting off topic here, I think my point is made. BOTTOM LINE: Science

This isn't a thread about PvP per say. It's a thread about how Science was Nerf'd SO MUCH, *because* of PvP, it is now useless, In PvE, which is a sad state of affairs.

Last edited by matthew486dx; 09-01-2012 at 11:02 PM.
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# 14
09-02-2012, 12:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew486dx View Post
Because that's how we got into this mess in the first place. All sci abilities got nerf'd because of PvP and now they are useless in PvE, unless you min/max and sacrifice all your subsystem power to Aux.

Particularly against the borg. A lot of sci skills don't make a dent on the borg. They seem to have a lot of resist, as well as their large HP. Scramble sensors has no effect on cubes or the gateway, and it only confuses spheres for like a few split seconds, if at all.

If you put five intrepids, with sci characters, in ISE, I garrantee you the results would be god awful.
If you put five defiants, with Tac captains, in ISE, everyone gets the optional.
And yes, IMHO, it would still be possible for Five cruisers and engineers to get the optional in ISE. Assuming the whole team was competent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew486dx View Post
This is getting off topic here, I think my point is made. BOTTOM LINE: Science

This isn't a thread about PvP per say. It's a thread about how Science was Nerf'd SO MUCH, *because* of PvP, it is now useless, In PvE, which is a sad state of affairs.
ya, don't be blaming the state of science on us, thats nothing but slander. we have never been happy with the state of science since the new skill tree. the new skill tree had all new science buff and resist skills, and all the attributes of each of the science abilities was hooked up to them in various way. particle generators buffs the damage of TBR, wile graviton generators buffs the push of TBR for example. the end result, not all thanks to the resist skills, was science abilities being a shadow of their former self, especially shield drain. its talked about all the time by us pvper how much it needs to be buffed. we even brought up how bad it is in pve with science, thats the buzz word that trigger action, when the pve crowd isnt happy. they must be so busy that they still cant adress it, and this has been a problem since season 5 launch. we have to beg, make videos of broken abilities in action, to get even an acknowledgment of the problem, wile we see pve problem gets hotfixed that night.


Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew486dx View Post
Fire on my Mark is a Debuff. FYI.
why ignore what i already said about it? its a debuff that has a counter with a 66% up time. i don't need your information.


Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew486dx View Post
And as for engineering being useless, they are tanks and healers. If you think they're useless, you're doing it wrong or don't understand it. My main is Engineering. I do my job. I'm a TANK and a HEALER. I fly the Sci Oddy variant. I still pull around 3,000 DPS. But according to parsers, I run about 1,500 HPS.
Engineering Team III heals 11,500 HP and with my DOFFs, I pop it every 15 seconds.
Aux to SIF III, with my Aux power up, gives about +40 damage resistance for 10 seconds and +9,000 HP, naively with 15 second cooldown. My Extend Shields II, gives 27% Resist to Shields, and 159 shield regen every sec for 30 seconds, 15 second cooldown after 30 seconds. I also have Hazard Emitters I, and Transfer Shield Strength II, I used 2x EPtS 1 and 2x RSP 1 to keep myself alive, along with my engineering heals RSF III and Miracle Worker III.

I can support and maintain the health of 2-3 players at a time with my hotkeys, I am quick. I can keep a team alive in mobs, or take all the aggro from a tac cube and tank it on my own. Cube aggro'd in ISE? No problem. I distract it and pull it away while 4 others work on the remaining spheres and gateway. I am spec'd into threat generation with pride I can survive any PvE encounter. If I have died, I made a serious mistake or got caught up typing.

My mines and FAW keep OHKO HY Plasma away for the most part, but since the last nerf of the borg dreadnaught plasmas, I can now survive most HY plasma hits. Not many cruiser captains can say the same.
well good for you. that sounds like the same setup my tactical officer sometimes flys in his ktinga. but he can also deliver actual spike damage wile doing it. did you think i was joking when i said a tac officer can do everything in a cruiser that an eng can?wile also dealing measurable damage? aside from mentioning redundant self heals, my tac does all of that. gonna call for tac abilities to not buff cruiser weapons next?
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# 15
09-02-2012, 03:36 AM
dontdrunkimshoot i can only imagine how disconnected u are from whats happening to sci captains flying sci ships.
Nobody here expects damage to be the same as an escort, but they do expect they're skills to actually do something.

Instead all sci skills have been disgustingly nerfed into uselessness cuz of tacs who took advantage of a broken system in PvP.
there's not 1 sci crowd control or debuff skill that's more then a minor inconvenience, and hull/shield heals alone, for exactly the same reason, are nowhere near a solution to keep up with an escort dmg output.

Even worse! it's actualy the escort that survives better. the ridiculous defense bonus from its maneuverability + the fact u can slot in a few heals make it better in every way then flying a sci ship.

and with all the nerfes flying sci is getting to be pointless in PvE aswell.
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# 16
09-02-2012, 03:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
well good for you. that sounds like the same setup my tactical officer sometimes flys in his ktinga. but he can also deliver actual spike damage wile doing it. did you think i was joking when i said a tac officer can do everything in a cruiser that an eng can?wile also dealing measurable damage? aside from mentioning redundant self heals, my tac does all of that. gonna call for tac abilities to not buff cruiser weapons next?
So a tac in a cruiser is good because of higher damage and can still heal/tank.

Then a tac in a sci ship would still be good because of higher damage and could still heal/debuff/ect even if his capt. abilities didn't improve sci ability damage.

Providing of course that sci abilities were worth using to begin with. Other than in a carrier in pve at-least.

And yeah, engineer abilities need some serious help.
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# 17
09-02-2012, 05:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cptapollo View Post
dontdrunkimshoot i can only imagine how disconnected u are from whats happening to sci captains flying sci ships.
Nobody here expects damage to be the same as an escort, but they do expect they're skills to actually do something.

Instead all sci skills have been disgustingly nerfed into uselessness cuz of tacs who took advantage of a broken system in PvP.
there's not 1 sci crowd control or debuff skill that's more then a minor inconvenience, and hull/shield heals alone, for exactly the same reason, are nowhere near a solution to keep up with an escort dmg output.

Even worse! it's actualy the escort that survives better. the ridiculous defense bonus from its maneuverability + the fact u can slot in a few heals make it better in every way then flying a sci ship.

and with all the nerfes flying sci is getting to be pointless in PvE aswell.

i dont know where your coming from with that. nobody here expects damage to be the same as an escort, including myself. you would know that if you read my posts. there was no active nerf, it was the switch to the new skill tree that left everything easily resisted and overal more weak. it had nothing to do with pvpers or tac captains.

sci/sci can still befuddle pretty good. not good enough but its something. vm with doffs leaves people with 3 down subsystems without needing any aux, graviton buffed repulsers pushes players far from team aid, rift with the doff can actually drain you down to almost nothing , doffs with gravity well do actually pose a threat, feedback pulse is always at least somewhat nasty, holding someone in a tractor beam for the escorts to shoot leaves the target with a large defense penalty. they have strong hull an shield heals, the captain skills are good at throwing a hull debuffs, of course subnuk, and the scattering field gives a good amount of protection. sci fleet gives a bunch of helpful shield resistence too

notice how this is all only really any good in a team setting. the sci ship has always been fairly worthless on its own, with the exception of the tac/sci combination. if your not happy with sci ships, and you only pve, thats the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
So a tac in a cruiser is good because of higher damage and can still heal/tank.

Then a tac in a sci ship would still be good because of higher damage and could still heal/debuff/ect even if his capt. abilities didn't improve sci ability damage.

Providing of course that sci abilities were worth using to begin with. Other than in a carrier in pve at-least.

And yeah, engineer abilities need some serious help.
sci captains need a beter synergy with their ship. tac captains have a synergy with all energy and kinetic damage currently, there is nothing like that for ether sci or eng.

science needs a synergy with drain damage that is only defended by insulators, and perhaps beter stun and pull strength and duration. they would be able to do thier sci/sci job beter that way. engineers need... well i guess synergy with heals, less cooldown or double the effect from hull repair skill or something. perhaps energy levels too. sci and eng are simply below the tac's level. scis are of course great to have in teams for at the very least subnukes.

in the character creation screen it should list each captain types special synergy

for tacs it should say that all damage buffs effect all energy and knetic damage.

for sci it should say they receive an extra 99 bonus skill points to flow cap, graviton gens, countermeasures, and decompiler

for eng it should say they receive an extra 99 bonus skill points to hull repair, shield emitters, structural integrity, and electro plasma systems

really, even if you made it so tac skills didn't also effect sci ship skills, or also eng captain skills like DEM and EWP, tacs would still deal more damage by a large order of magnitude and still be the best type to have around. you would just do away with tac/sci being viable in any way, and make tac/cruisers less fun, dropping tac buffed EWP and using tac buffed DEM can be sweet. so thats why i think eng and sci need the buff i propose.

this would make the eng captains the best healers bar none, have the highest energy buffs from EPtX, and the most hitpoints by far as well. that would make eng much more viable in all ship types.

sci would be able to deal terrible glider damage, and strip shields like they used too. their other abilities would pull much harder, push much harder, and disable much harder too. it would be left to the tacs to deal damage and nothing else.



or you could nerf tacs till it doesnt mater what captain type you are because all 3 suck.
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# 18
09-02-2012, 06:04 AM
I think the real issue here is simple. Right now cap tac abilities are the ONLY ones in the game that DIRECTLY effect boff abilities. Cap Sci/Eng abilities do what they do, but they have absolutely no direct impact on a single boff ability, only indirectly do they have an effect.

Because of this boff damage abilities have been weakened, or atleast have not been buffed, because of the potential damage they would then have with tac captains would be unfair primarily in PvP.

So camp 1 is calling for a nerf on tac captain abilities and hoping the boff abilities will get a buff as well making them just as strong as they currently are for tac captains for all captains.

And camp 2 simply wants the other captain abilities buffed so they also have a DIRECT impact on boff abilities, possibly simply making specific captain/ship combos all be equally broken so to speak.

Am I right so far?

Here is the thing though, what camp 2 wants does not fit this game's design philosophy. Everything in this game is designed around limiting the number of things that can modify other things and making sure they are additive bonuses not multiplicative. When you use rapid fire it adds its damage to the weapons and when you use go down fighting it also adds its damage it the weapons without (not 100% sure) increasing the damage increase from rapid fire at the same time. However, it does directly increase (as before) the damage of say gravity well. This is also what makes APB so stupidly powerful in STFs as it does multiply ALL damage dealt to target's hull.

You cannot balance a damage ability so it is useful for both a sci and a tac captain in a sci ship at the current time. Can't be done. It is either too strong with the tac, or too weak with the sci.

Camp A's method would promote variety, allowing various combinations of captain abilities (if they were balanced to begin with) to work well with various ship types, boff ability combinations, and builds.

Camp B's method would promote Hyper Specialization even more than we already have, where if one desires to be a shield stripper its Sci captain or bust. Damage of any kind? Tac or bust. And so on.

And finally a science ship's guns will deal just as much raw damage as a cruiser's thanks to SA with the same amount of weapon power so its not like the tac abilities go to waste.

PPS: And does anyone really think anyone at cryptic cares about balance nearly as much as the posters in this thread? When was the last time something was 'tweaked' for balance purposes instead of simply 'nerfed into oblivion' or ignored if not game-breakingly overpowered?
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# 19
09-02-2012, 08:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
notice how this is all only really any good in a team setting. the sci ship has always been fairly worthless on its own, with the exception of the tac/sci combination. if your not happy with sci ships, and you only pve, thats the problem.

sci captains need a beter synergy with their ship. tac captains have a synergy with all energy and kinetic damage currently, there is nothing like that for ether sci or eng.
Okay so we get to the root of the problem right here. It's nice that you finally came out and admitted it.

All science abilities need to be buffed so that science captains can fly their own ships effectively. However if they did that, tac captains would be overpowered in science ships.

The best solution, is to change the damage type of science abilties to exotic, and make sure tac captains can only buff energy and kinetic with their captain's abilities.

Anything else just means that we keep things as they are - where tac captains can fly escorts and science ship extremely well, and science captains can't fly anything with any effectiveness.

No one is saying that tac captains shouldn't be able to fly escorts well. Why are you going up in arms at the thought that science captains should be able to fly their own ships well?

Last edited by kamiyama317; 09-02-2012 at 08:21 AM.
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# 20
09-02-2012, 08:16 AM
OP is right. Without even going in to the mechanics of the game let's look at this from a common sense point of view.

Sci captains should be more powerful in a sci ship than any other captain. Likewise, a sci ship should be more effective under the command of a sci captain.

If tac captains wish to disagree they should ask themselves how they would feel if a tac ship was more devastating under the command if a sci captain than a tac captain. I think the tac captains out there would be super mad if that happened. (I think there will b a lot of tac caotains who wouldnt be mad about this because it benefits them.)
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