Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,391
# 21
09-02-2012, 07:37 AM
I do agree something must be done for Science Captains, but Nerfing is never a good thing to do, for any career or power/item. This was how the problem that is being debated started, do people want the tacticals to be given the same treatment, have the same issues as a science?

In all honestly I have characters from all career paths, and I feel nerfing the tactical's is simply not the answer, I am more in favour of the science and engineering classes getting a buff. Perhaps restrict it so tacticals can't fly science ships, I don't know but something I feel needs to be done for the science career. Speaking of career paths I also feel that they need to be overhauled, to make them more unique from one another, a tactical shouldn't be able to get away flying a science ship or an engineer in a escort. Just goes to show that a change needs to be made to make these classes more unique with more specialised playing styles.

And yes I don't think Cryptic cares about balance, haven't for a long time, their answer for everything is either nerf it or it's an exploit, so nerf it. I think it goes to show they really don't play the game much, don't know the mechanics of their own game, a lot of players seem to be way more knowledgeable that the people who make the game are.
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Last edited by majesticmsfc; 09-02-2012 at 05:02 PM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 54
# 22
09-02-2012, 07:42 AM
@dontdrunkimshoot the more u post the worse u sound. plz go grab u'r sci captain, grab any ship u want other then a carrier and go pvp. tell us all about how u we're proving us wrong afterwards...

all those skills VM, GW, TR all have hard counters now as for Feedback ... lol just lol... a tac will kill u be4 his shield drops from it so thats like~ 5k dmg at best.
and lets not forget cool downs which are just.... fail

1 min feedback, viral, syphon, tachyon,jam , disrupt and 45secs GW, TR, PSW

30 secs RF, 30 BO, 30/45 patterns, SST and u get a skill to bring all of them to half cooldown

Forgot something: a doff that has 50% chance to reduce cooldown on RF by 20secs... SOMEONE AT CRYPTIC MUST HAVE BEEN HIGH WHEN HE/SHE MADE THAT ONE.

Last edited by cptapollo; 09-02-2012 at 08:15 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 23
09-02-2012, 10:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiyama317 View Post
Okay so we get to the root of the problem right here. It's nice that you finally came out and admitted it.

All science abilities need to be buffed so that science captains can fly their own ships effectively. However if they did that, tac captains would be overpowered in science ships.

The best solution, is to change the damage type of science abilties to exotic, and make sure tac captains can only buff energy and kinetic with their captain's abilities.

Anything else just means that we keep things as they are - where tac captains can fly escorts and science ship extremely well, and science captains can't fly anything with any effectiveness.

No one is saying that tac captains shouldn't be able to fly escorts well. Why are you going up in arms at the thought that science captains should be able to fly their own ships well?

What he doesn't want to understand is that in the multivector assault ESCORT he can load gravity well 1 and outdamage a science captain fully spec'd in graviton and particle ..using gravity well 3 @ full aux.

Yes. Its THAT significant. The tac capt buffs plus LT CMDR and CMDR level buff powerups (omega) stack up to give gravity well 1 an absolutely ridiculous damage output. Far more than grav well 3.


...while at the same time buffing all the escort's weapons. Peachy little situation there.




A little history lesson for him as well since he seems to conveniently forget how tac captains have been the constant source of science nerfs:


After the F2P patch changed the damage types a patch came along which had a lil' glitch in it.

That glitch was that warhead tac consoles (generic + kinetic) actually boosted gravity well.

(Do note this was BEFORE cryptic also broke graviton stat.. this was back when gravity well still pulled ships in HARD and kept them in its maw)

Sci captains, having seen their gravity well damage drop by 50% post F2P due to the kinetic resists affecting the gravity well damage now.... jumped at the chance to return to glory.

Science ships flew around with just two tac consoles ... that brought them almost...almost... back to their old damage.

But then tac captains begun to whine that ... get this... its SO damn ironic... TAC captains in SCIENCE ships were dropping murderously overpowered gravity wells that were boosted by the tac capt abilities + warhead consoles.

I'm talking gravity well 3's that would do 2.5k damage to hull PER TICK after resists.

Elite Khitomer STF for example, when the sphere + probe swarm spawned a single tac capt in a sci ship just dropped a boosted grav well 3 and that ALONE killed all the ships and held them inside the well.

In PVP (which is why the complaining came about) the whining was of sci ships killing people and they had 'no way' to defend against such massive damage output. (OH THE IRONY).

What did Cryptic do?

They completely screwed up gravity well in three separate stages.

1- They made the tac consoles not boost grav well damage. That effectively removed sci captains in sci ships from the grav well damage equation.

..but that wasnt enough, the whining continued. Tac capt in sci ships STILL could boost the kinetic damage to ridiculous levels...and grav well 3 was just too damn good to give up.

2- They said 'oh if the problem is the damage per tick then lets weaken the gravity well pull so ships can get out and not take so much damage' ...

so, in one patch... the gravity well lost about 75% of its tractor strength. Probes were sucked in once and then let go. The damage per tick went 2.2k (tac capt dmg boost minus tac consoles)... next tick was 1.9 as the probe moved away from the centerpoint... then 1.5.. then 1.2.. and so on. Sci capts oth, were doing 1.1 at first tick. This is why science ships literally vanished from the game after this patch.

But the whining continued. Why? Tac capt in science ships still did very high damage in pvp even though ships could now easily exit the grav well. On top of that, the sci ship with tac capt also did darn good weapon damage (6 beam arrays + grav well = great dps). Sci ships had disable subsystem engine, could load tractors and a whole slew of stuff to hold ships down.

So Cryptic put the final nail in the science ship's coffins:

3- In one patch, ships gained 75% resists to all remaining science abilities via power insulators.

Now, tac captains in science ships suddenly did less damage in a sci vessel than they could in their escorts. The great migration back to the gunships took place.

What was left was science captains piloting science ships that had no more science abilities to use. What was left was completely ineffective for its intended role and science as a skill set just CEASED to matter when it came to damage.

Oh, and a few patches later they completely broke the graviton stat and gravity well was absolutely useless even as a crowd control ability for like 3 months until they finally bothered to fix it.


Also, in one of your previous posts you said repulsors and feedback dont do energy/kinetic damage. They do. Repulsor is kinetic damage that bypasses the shields. Feedback pulse SEEMS to reflect the damage type that triggered it because hull resists lower the damage (when there is no shield to further lower it via the 50/50% dmg split).

Tachyon Beam and Particle Burst are drain abilities not 'damage types'. Its a silly distinction since they 'hurt' the shields but fact is, if there are no shields and you use the ability it wont hurt the hull as any 'damage type' would. Oh, and for these two abilities, if you had not bothered to test it... a SINGLE point in insulators lowers the drain amount of a 9 flow cap / 9 particle burst spec sci ship @ max aux by 50%. Its THAT freaking ridiculous. Now you know why nobody uses those abilities. Read above to see WHY they nerfed.
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# 24
09-02-2012, 11:09 AM
Here's an idea: how about the developers revert all the nerfs done to science abilities since they're going to revamp how PVP works anyway?

In the mean time, who gives a damn how PVP ruins anything in the PVE game? Just stop begging for them to ruin it further just because one class/ship combo is too powerful.
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Posts: 1,241
# 25
09-02-2012, 11:49 AM
That 'revamp' is really nothing more than than them making a sector or some sort of maps or queues for people to pvp in. If you think they are going to touch the ship setups, capt skill or boff abilities you're sadly mistaken.

Cryptic is now PWE. The zstore is all that this game is about now. Damage and explosions and other power-ups is what sells not the fixing of free science abilities or the broken stat system.

The change to F2P alone proves it. The whole game was utterly dumbed down and simplified for one purpose: to open the market for powerups in the store. All you need to do is count how many zstore items are focused on weapons and ship design (escorts) vs how many are peddled to science and engineers types.

This is not a case of the market adjusting to the buyers, its the environment being modified to bottleneck the buyers into the market PWE can sell the most.
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# 26
09-02-2012, 02:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Also, in one of your previous posts you said repulsors and feedback dont do energy/kinetic damage. They do. Repulsor is kinetic damage that bypasses the shields. Feedback pulse SEEMS to reflect the damage type that triggered it because hull resists lower the damage (when there is no shield to further lower it via the 50/50% dmg split).

Tachyon Beam and Particle Burst are drain abilities not 'damage types'. Its a silly distinction since they 'hurt' the shields but fact is, if there are no shields and you use the ability it wont hurt the hull as any 'damage type' would. Oh, and for these two abilities, if you had not bothered to test it... a SINGLE point in insulators lowers the drain amount of a 9 flow cap / 9 particle burst spec sci ship @ max aux by 50%. Its THAT freaking ridiculous. Now you know why nobody uses those abilities. Read above to see WHY they nerfed.
i actually said this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
tach beam and charged particle burst deal drain damage, its not any energy type and is only resisted by power insulators. FBP doesn't deal kinetic damage ether, its an exotic damage that is resisted by 'all energy' armor. tac buffs don't buff the drain damage, a sci captain that could buff drain damage would make the sci/sci combo as good as it was back before the skill tree change
and ya thats thanks only to the new skill tree, NOBODY called for that to happen

cryptic always considered the warhead console buffing sci abilities a bug that needed fixing. its called a warhead console after all. but no it must be the tac captain boggy man again.

the pull from gravity well was nerfed down to nothing long before FTP, and then buffed a bit back to were it is now. tac captains were never using gravity well as a main damage dealer anyways, except maybe in stfs, if anyone was complain about tac boosted gravity well it was the noobs that considered everything overpowered, i don't recall ever seeing that complaining on the pvp forum.

its TBR thats the favorite, and FBP when someone launched an alpha strike at them. the role of a tac/sci is very limited, and tricky to deal damage in. because thats basically all they are really good for. you can try to CC in them but your skill tree would have to favor graviton over particle. its just a build to kirk around in and blow through stfs in, it has no function in an actual team setting.

as gimped as it may be now, sci/sci still is the key to getting kills in matches were there is a lot of talent to go around. the damage and healing can cancel each other out indefinitely. all this vaunted tac buffed abilities you all are so holier then though railing against get lost in the healing ether. they might as well not use their tac buffs at all. the sci debuffs and a strong tractor repulser push with a vm to further make someone helpless puts a target in a position were healing is out of range and the target is vulnerable. in a lot of matches without that no one would ever die.

sci/sci has never been good, or had a function outside of a team like that, and that has nothing to do with tac captains. what sci/sci can accomplish, only it can accomplish, matches literally cant end without them. its kind of hilarious that the complain here is that tacs in sci deal more damage then sci in sci. that is SO not the point. their score board numbers arent supposed to be great, they are supposed to put someone in the position that they can be killed by others.

but is universally agreed at that skill level that sci needs to be able to do all the things it used to again. the grav well needs to hold better, the shield striping needs to work, and the stuns need to stun longer then a fraction of a second.
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 36
# 27
09-02-2012, 04:04 PM
Yes tac needs to be nerfed. And we need our sci abilities restored as well.
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Posts: 54
# 28
09-02-2012, 09:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by majesticmsfc View Post
I do agree something must be done for Science Captains, but Nerfing is never a good thing to do, for any career or power/item. This was how the problem that is being debated started, do people want the tacticals to be given the same treatment, have the same issues as a science?

In all honestly I have characters from all career paths, and I feel nerfing the tactical's is simply not the answer, I am more in favour of the science and engineering classes getting a buff. Perhaps restrict it so tacticals can't fly science ships, I don't know but something I feel needs to be done for the science career. Speaking of career paths I also feel that they need to be overhauled, to make them more unique from one another, a tactical shouldn't be able to get away flying a science ship or an engineer in a escort. Just goes to show that a change needs to be made to make these classes more unique with more specialised playing styles.

And yes I don't think Cryptic cares about balance, haven't for a long time, their answer for everything is either nerf it or it's an exploit, so nerf it. I think it goes to show they really don't play the game much, don't know the mechanics of their own game, a lot of players seem to be way more knowledgeable that the people who make the game are.
I'm not asking for Tactical to be Nerf'd. I'm asking for Tactical to not Buff Science.

It's THAT simple. It's not a nerf. It's a bugfix.

Tactical should not buff Science.

Wouldn't it be bull crap if spec'ing into Attack Patterns suddenly doubled the damage of Tyken's Rift? It just doesn't make any more sense than Attack Pattern Alpha making Photonic Shockwave death and destruction to anything that comes near.

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Captain
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Posts: 1,241
# 29
09-02-2012, 11:10 PM
Exactly.


But for tac captains that is a 'nerf'. Taking away kinetic console buffing a KINETIC DAMAGE ability grav well (post-f2p) is not a 'nerf' but a 'fix'... but it is perfectly ok for tac capt. buff ability to buff the gravity well and ALL other science abilities that use damage stat PLUS the ship's own guns..all at once.

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# 30
09-03-2012, 12:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiyama317 View Post
Like what matthew486dx said, what does a tactical officer know about creating Gravity Wells or Tyken Rifts?

wrong point of view:

1) first of all, GW is a sci ability executed by a sci BOFF
2) the captain of a ship, regardless of his career only give order... even if in the game based on your career you have specific abilities.


I think the problem is different: why does a sci captain command a tact/eng ship? why does a eng captain command a sci/tact ship? why does a tact captain command a sci/eng ship?

I think a captain should have the command only of ship based on his specific career... es a sci captain should only command a sci (or science oriented) vessell... think about " it is a waste of knowledge assigning a tactical ship to a sci captain and it's a waste of knowledge assigning a sci vessel to a tactical captain" because a sci captain has a poor knowledge about tactics and a tact captain has a poor knowledge about physical phenomena...

We should change that... and I think this change will improve a good mixing of players both in pvp and pve.



Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
so you want to destroy an interesting synergy, and make a captain/ship combo worthless? i have thought about this a lot and its been debated at length in the pvp forum. its a tactical captain's job to deal damage first and foremost, thats all there is too him. he doesn't have self heals or debuffs to fall back on. arbitrarily taking that ability away, making exceptions, its a slippery slope.

the real problem is a lack of synergy with science captains and science ships, they should have a way to buff the non knetic damage abilities in ways the tactical captains cant, that way sci ships can get the buff they need, shield striping abilities that deal drain damage and not energy or kinetic damage would be viable again, and taci wouldn't be the only really effective captain type to put in a sci ship like it is right now.

engineering captains are terrible, and science captains are only good in a premade. both are overdue for a buff, thats why you are all coming to the conclusion that tac/sci is overpowered. really, a tac captain in absolutely everything works best right now. the other 2 captain types need to be brought to a tac's level. a tac is perfect as is, and is the only interesting type to play right now imo, nerfing it like that would destroy what i and many others enjoy, buffing the other types up to a tacs level would just make them fun too.

I think sinergy should be preserved based on team only... Do you want that sinergy? than you need to be in a mixed team: tact captain in tact oriented ship, eng captain in eng oriented scip and sci captain in sci oriented ships.


I have both a tact captain using an advanced escort and a sci captain using a LRSV... The tactical captain deal great damage... not much more. The sci captain can be a specialist in debuff or heal (or a good mix of both) but can't deal a great damage. IMHO the tact toon is effective and good balanced (deal a great damage but fragile enough)... the sci toon instead is too much fragile compared on it's effectiveness: ability like GW generates a loot of threat and the shield of LRSV can be stripped really fast. I thnk sci vessels and some sci ability should be improved (GW is good to stop ships but not to deal enough damage, many sci abilities are uselless, sci vessell should have more shields) and sci captain should have some specific healing ability.

no strange career/ship mix...



p.s.
I hope my english is not so bad!

Last edited by eurialo; 09-03-2012 at 12:53 AM.
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