Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,417
# 31
09-03-2012, 02:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rustychat View Post

I think between what Meurik has said and what I've added on here, I think it about covers it. Everything says that the JJverse is an alternate universe, not a retelling of the prime universe events. I haven't seen a thing that even indicates that it's set in the prime universe.
Yeah. The only debate I can see is whether the JJverse was ALWAYS an alternate universe (a fan assertion I've seen) or whether Nero's emergence caused it to splinter off, either via standard rules of time travel where time travel creates universes (I believe this is Orci and Kurtzman's assertion... and that Spock's life was not changed until he reached Earth, which was transformed politically and technologically by reverse engineering the Kelvin's scans of the Narada) or whether the red matter singularity CAUSED the universe to splinter off.

My pet theory on Trek time travel is rooted in what Spock said in "City on the Edge of Forever":

"There is a theory. There could be some logic to the belief that time is fluid, like a river, with currents, eddies, backwash."

Running with that, some time travel is like paddling against the current. Some is climbing out of the river and running alongside it backwards. And some is being rocketed back and hurtling into the stream with enough force to splinter its course.

Treat Spock's statement literally, not as metaphor.

Just treat time like a river in Trek. It can be dammed, splintered, fed by tributaries, redirected, siphoned for irrigation, stored, turned backwards. Its flow can be constant or intermittent. It can be used for power. It can have rapids and calm stretches. Its rate can be variable and also vary by location. It can swell and flood or dry up. There can be stable canals linking timelines.

It's like a river.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 185
# 32
09-03-2012, 06:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by meurik View Post
Thank you, I will.

You ARE ignorant. Ignorant of the fact that the 2009 movie specifically said that the events in the period between 2233-2258 takes place in an Alternate Reality. They said it in the movie. That's not an opinion. That's FACT.
Well you are a rude sod then arn't you, I simple disagreed with you regarding some of the Star Trek events and proved that there was a Borg history but instead you wanted to hurl insults and not actually answer the question in relation to Whoopi Goldberg instead another fellow did it in a polite way.

Further more I didn't know what was said in a fictional film automatically means fact, do you know what fiction means?

Look at the special features of the movie including the interviews with the cast and producer, now its stated in their that the film is about "How Kirk became the Captain of the Enterprise" they did not say at all anywhere anytime in the interviews it was set in an alternate universe now thats a fact buddy!

But as I said before I don't care what you want to think its your choice but to hurl insults at people because they disagree with you is pretty low mate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rustychat View Post
Where exactly the El-Aurian homeworld is located is unknown, just that it's 'several thousand lightyears' away from Federation space. Many El-Aurians travelled, as Guinan was on Earth in 1893, those that were at their home system were all assimilated or killed.
And this is why I didn't like the borg Episode in Enterprise, it contradicts everything. Starfleet new of the Borg before Q through Picards Enterprise to meet them, Guinan was on the planet at the time with Superior technology. Don't you think her own people would picked up on this and left earth immediately?

Her home world is unknown because it was destroyed by the borg.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rustychat View Post
by the time the Federation met the Borg.
Now hang on there because they introduced the Borg in Enterprise, its Starfleet not the Federation as it didn't exist at that time. You see how this is screwing with everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rustychat View Post
After all, she thought that if the Federation was ready, they might have been able to establish a relationship with the Borg. The Borg still obviously wasn't a subject she was eager to talk about, given that she never once mentioned them to Picard until the events of Q Who.
What no she didn't she hated the Borg and never once suggested the Federation at that time could be friends with the borg and of course it wasn't mentioned because it hadn't been written yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rustychat View Post
Starfleet probably did poke at it. But the records were sealed, and only a few would have known about it. There's also only so much that you can learn from wreckage.
But Picard was the Man lol if it was on record they would know about it instantly given the computer would have told them about classified files soon as they attempted to scan the Borg Cube and Picard would have got the info but because of the events of Enterprise hadn't even been thought of at that time and introducing the Borg stuffed that whole time line up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rustychat View Post
Borg vessels are further designed so that when the ship is cricitally damaged, all vital technology self-destructs. At the end of Best of Both Worlds, the Borg cube self-destructs above Earth after it gets shut down, leaving very little, if anything for the Federation to study. Even after just trying to disable a Borg Probe, the salavagable wreckage from it only littered the floor of a single cargo bay on Voyager. Part of the sphere surviving relatively well like that would likely be extremely rare, and be simply because part of that self-destruct process failed. If the Enterprise-E even suspected that it might of survived, then they would have retrieved the wreckage themselves to both prevent contamination of the timeline, and because it would be a rare opportunity to study relatively intact Borg technology.
Thats nice in theory but go watch the episode I'm talking about and you will see there is plenty to study.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rustychat View Post
Because Spock can't go to another dimension? Jumping dimensions isn't anything new for Star Trek, just they're normally mirror universes, while the JJverse is a little different. But then, the method of reaching it was rather different as well. The interaction between the nova and the red matter singularity allowed them to shift through dimensions and time. It's not the first time the pair of those have occurred either. The mirror universe Tholians in 2063 stole the USS Defiant from the prime universe in 2268 after all.

Incidentally, time travel is always going to be at least of the temporal variety. I'm not sure how you'd get non-temporal time travel.


I think between what Meurik has said and what I've added on here, I think it about covers it. Everything says that the JJverse is an alternate universe, not a retelling of the prime universe events. I haven't seen a thing that even indicates that it's set in the prime universe.
As for my opinions about the movie I think I answered Meurik on that one and as I said to him/her this is my opinion I'm aloud to have an opinion as your aloud to have yours but this does not mean that either of us are correct or wrong.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 855
# 33
09-03-2012, 08:32 AM
Time for me to pick apart your post (again):

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariseabove View Post
Well you are a rude sod then arn't you, I simple disagreed with you regarding some of the Star Trek events and proved that there was a Borg history but instead you wanted to hurl insults and not actually answer the question in relation to Whoopi Goldberg instead another fellow did it in a polite way.
I was rude in return for the rudeness you showed in your previous post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariseabove View Post
Further more I didn't know what was said in a fictional film automatically means fact, do you know what fiction means?
Obviously you are just acting "stupid" to make my post look worse. When I said that the events of the 2009 movie are based in an Alternate Reality = Fact, I was ofcourse speaking in regards to what happened IN THE MOVIE. I really don't understand why it's so difficult for you to grasp, that the events of the 2009 movie doesn't negate the previous canon, but rather acknowledges it by stating that the NEW events take place in an ALTERNATE REALITY.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariseabove View Post
Look at the special features of the movie including the interviews with the cast and producer, now its stated in their that the film is about "How Kirk became the Captain of the Enterprise" they did not say at all anywhere anytime in the interviews it was set in an alternate universe now thats a fact buddy!
This goes back to my previous paragraph. They stated in the movie that it's an Alternate Reality, and that's good enough for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariseabove View Post
And this is why I didn't like the borg Episode in Enterprise, it contradicts everything. Starfleet new of the Borg before Q through Picards Enterprise to meet them, Guinan was on the planet at the time with Superior technology. Don't you think her own people would picked up on this and left earth immediately?

Her home world is unknown because it was destroyed by the borg.
1893: Guinan visiting Earth posing as a Human
2063: First Contact with Vulcans + Destruction of Borg Sphere in orbit
2153: Wreckage found in Antarctica including ship parts + cybernetic corpses
2293: USS Enterprise-B launched, refugees of El-Aurians rescued
2353: USS Raven seeks out the Borg who are "rumors and sensor echoes"
2356: Magnus and Erin Hansen assimilated, possibly first Humans
2364: Outposts destroyed along Neutral Zone, destruction caused by Borg
2365: "First Contact" with the Borg, 8500 lightyears from Federation
2366: Borg assimilate Picard and attempt to assimilate Earth
2373: Borg attempt to assimilate Earth 2nd time, fails and travels back to 2063

These are all the KNOWN years in which events surrounding the Borg and/or Guinan took place.

Between Guinans visit in 1893 and the subsequent finding of the Borg wreckage in 2153, a full 160 years pass. You seem to assume that she always remained on Earth after her visit in 1893, which the events fo "Generations" appear to contradict, since she was on a refugee transport in 2293.

The Voyager episode "Dark Frontier" implies that the Borg were known as early as 12 years before Picard's "first contact" with them in 2365, merely as rumors and sensor echoes. How could these rumors exist, unless the Federation/Starfleet had some previous knowledge of the Borg, perhaps from around 2153 ? How does the Enterprise episode contradict "established canon" in regards to the Borg?
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,852
# 34
09-03-2012, 11:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
Yeah. The only debate I can see is whether the JJverse was ALWAYS an alternate universe (a fan assertion I've seen) or whether Nero's emergence caused it to splinter off, either via standard rules of time travel where time travel creates universes (I believe this is Orci and Kurtzman's assertion... and that Spock's life was not changed until he reached Earth, which was transformed politically and technologically by reverse engineering the Kelvin's scans of the Narada) or whether the red matter singularity CAUSED the universe to splinter off.

My pet theory on Trek time travel is rooted in what Spock said in "City on the Edge of Forever":

"There is a theory. There could be some logic to the belief that time is fluid, like a river, with currents, eddies, backwash."

Running with that, some time travel is like paddling against the current. Some is climbing out of the river and running alongside it backwards. And some is being rocketed back and hurtling into the stream with enough force to splinter its course.

Treat Spock's statement literally, not as metaphor.

Just treat time like a river in Trek. It can be dammed, splintered, fed by tributaries, redirected, siphoned for irrigation, stored, turned backwards. Its flow can be constant or intermittent. It can be used for power. It can have rapids and calm stretches. Its rate can be variable and also vary by location. It can swell and flood or dry up. There can be stable canals linking timelines.

It's like a river.
That has a lot of merit. It's possible that the Singularity had a bigger effect on the timeline than just sending 2 ships back through time.
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Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 67
# 35
09-03-2012, 12:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ariseabove View Post
And this is why I didn't like the borg Episode in Enterprise, it contradicts everything. Starfleet new of the Borg before Q through Picards Enterprise to meet them, Guinan was on the planet at the time with Superior technology. Don't you think her own people would picked up on this and left earth immediately?

Her home world is unknown because it was destroyed by the borg.
Meurik again pretty well covered this. But, how many El-Aurians do you think are on Earth? 1? 2?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariseabove View Post
Now hang on there because they introduced the Borg in Enterprise, its Starfleet not the Federation as it didn't exist at that time. You see how this is screwing with everything.
Anything Starfleet knew, the Federation would have known after it was formed. And what did Starfleet know about the Borg? Just that they were cyborgs and had sent out a message that may never even be recieved. They didn't even know the name of the Borg. Starfleet Intelligence probably made numerous discreet inquiries with surrounding species about them, but noone will really learn of the Borg until the Enterprise-D encounters them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariseabove View Post
What no she didn't she hated the Borg and never once suggested the Federation at that time could be friends with the borg and of course it wasn't mentioned because it hadn't been written yet.
I think you should go back and watch Q Who again. Never said she hated the Borg, just that she wouldn't have liked to have talked about the destruction of her entire race by the hands of the Borg (again, she never told Picard despite it being stated that they knew each since the Stargazer) but would someone really be that friendly with a race that wiped out nearly their entire race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariseabove View Post
But Picard was the Man lol if it was on record they would know about it instantly given the computer would have told them about classified files soon as they attempted to scan the Borg Cube and Picard would have got the info but because of the events of Enterprise hadn't even been thought of at that time and introducing the Borg stuffed that whole time line up.
They're not going to tell the captain of the flagship everything you know. There wasn't even anything to connect what little the Federation knew of the Borg from the Enterprise episode to the destruction of the colonies they found at the end of season 1. Do you really think they'll pull aside Picard and say "Hey, nearly 200 odd years ago, we lost some researchers. Something about cybernetics. That's about all we know, but we thought it was really, really necessary information for you!"


Quote:
Originally Posted by ariseabove View Post
Thats nice in theory but go watch the episode I'm talking about and you will see there is plenty to study.
They always show more wreckage because it looks better on screen than the entire ship being vapourised. But you can just as easily say that the antimatter containment would have taken a few more seconds to fail, hence why the Enterprise left the area pretty quickly. Hanging around an exploding ship isn't a good idea, especially when your own defenses are down. It's also not just theory, the self-destruction of technology on Borg vessels isn't something I just came up with, Seven stated it in the same episode when Voyager blew up that probe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariseabove View Post
As for my opinions about the movie I think I answered Meurik on that one and as I said to him/her this is my opinion I'm aloud to have an opinion as your aloud to have yours but this does not mean that either of us are correct or wrong.
You were quite blatantly telling us to start with as though it was fact. Even still, just because it's 'your opinion' doesn't mean it's still not wrong. It's clearly stated to be an alternate reality. It's pretty clearly an alternate reality. But you're complaining about how it doesn't fit with the Original Series because you think it's supposed to, when it was never meant to. "It's my opinion" doesn't make it any less incorrect.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 319
# 36 pittful
09-03-2012, 01:13 PM
Archer was perhaps the best Captain of them all, and Enterprise was the best series. Archer was a realistic captain, aboard a realistic ship, the series was more down to earth, never before had we saw Starfleet at such an early time, everything was new with them, Military and Diplomatic tactics from Earths past wouldn't work the same on different new species. And the NX-01 unlike the other ships, say for Voyager, was mostly alone. the Columbia wasn't completed til late in the series, and Enterprise explained somethings that other series's has left a mystery, as for the borg they were left over from when the borg went back in time, as they did several times. the JJ film has nothing to do with any of this, say for Archer and Porthos were mentioned. stop trolling against Enterprise and Scott, it was the best, most realistic series, it even showed references to Khan and Data
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 931
# 37
09-03-2012, 03:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by meurik View Post
The Voyager episode "Dark Frontier" implies that the Borg were known as early as 12 years before Picard's "first contact" with them in 2365, merely as rumors and sensor echoes. How could these rumors exist, unless the Federation/Starfleet had some previous knowledge of the Borg, perhaps from around 2153 ? How does the Enterprise episode contradict "established canon" in regards to the Borg?

.....






My word, you're right! I also considered First Contact having made an alternate timeline that meant everything after it (Voyager series 4 onwards) and that episode of Enterprise happened in a minutely different timeline to everything prior to it, where all references to the Borg hadn't happened because they hadn't gone back in time at that point... in... time.


I'm starting to sound like Deanna.


But when you put it that way.... It does all gel into one constant timeline, where First Contact was a pre destination paradox that had to happen to create that episode of Enterprise, so there could be rumours and sensor ghosts floating around some dusty Federation archive that the Hansons could get their hands on thanks to some drunk cadet talking about some 'daft old story' he read while he was doing inventory that day, and they run off to do what research they could (perhaps even going so far as to tailing that Cube that was floating about the Neutral Zone at the end of TNG series 1?), but dissapeared on a wild goose chase and first proper contact was made in Q Who! It all makes sense!



That kinda got away from me. But you get my point.
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 121
# 38
09-03-2012, 03:38 PM
Funny how this topic comepletely sidetracks and people start discussing Borg stuff......

Anyway,

I found Archer as a written character (and the way he was acted) in the very least a person of interesting psychology.

Considering that Starfleet is founded in certain base values, Janeway was at many times morally very questionable.

But Archer (ok, there were less rules for him), he was morally irresponsible. I remember him robbing people blind in the middle of space, leaving them with nothing, because the mission was more important and he took what he needed. And that act of piracy was the least of his questionable deeds.

I liked the character, his desperation, fear, inflexibility, weakness and simple mindedness, it made him interesting and realistic. But far from the perfect Captain. That's probably why he was never mentioned by Kirk and Picard, they were not very proud of that episode in the Starfleet history.

But don't forget Archer was the guy that was not meant to get that Captain seat in the first place. The man that actually was supposed to go would have been a far more solid Captain. Archer was basically a test pilot before he got command, not exactly a great qualification.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 67
# 39
09-03-2012, 06:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hydaspes View Post
Funny how this topic comepletely sidetracks and people start discussing Borg stuff......
Yeah, complaints about that one episode apparently not fitting

Quote:
Originally Posted by hydaspes View Post
Considering that Starfleet is founded in certain base values, Janeway was at many times morally very questionable.

But Archer (ok, there were less rules for him), he was morally irresponsible. I remember him robbing people blind in the middle of space, leaving them with nothing, because the mission was more important and he took what he needed. And that act of piracy was the least of his questionable deeds.
Well, with Janeway she could never quite make up her mind if getting her crew home faster was worth immoral acts. Sometimes it made sense that she would go a certain distance, other times it was a case of "You allowed that before, why not this?"

For Archer, well, the mission in that particular case I'd say most people would be willing to bend or outright break many of the rules. You've got to find an alien race that you know next to nothing about, in a hostile and unusual region of space, and you've got an unknown but fairly short time limit to do it all in. The cost of failure is the complete destruction of Earth and the near extinction of humanity. I'd say most people would resort to a bit of piracy to allow the engines to keep going when your entire race hangs in the balance, or other more questionable methods of trying to get some kind of information about where they should start looking. He didn't like it, but he felt it was necessary.

Outside of that, he was pretty morally solid. Discovers that the Andorians were right about P'jem being used as a listening post, and considers it more important than trying to hide the truth in favour of their Vulcan allies. Granted though, Archer's personal distaste for Vulcans holding back humanity's progress in general might have played a part in that. Sure, he doesn't present himself to the Klingons so they can imprison him, but how many people would?
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,852
# 40
09-03-2012, 07:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by general1devon View Post
Archer was perhaps the best Captain of them all, and Enterprise was the best series. Archer was a realistic captain, aboard a realistic ship, the series was more down to earth, never before had we saw Starfleet at such an early time, everything was new with them, Military and Diplomatic tactics from Earths past wouldn't work the same on different new species. And the NX-01 unlike the other ships, say for Voyager, was mostly alone. the Columbia wasn't completed til late in the series, and Enterprise explained somethings that other series's has left a mystery, as for the borg they were left over from when the borg went back in time, as they did several times. the JJ film has nothing to do with any of this, say for Archer and Porthos were mentioned. stop trolling against Enterprise and Scott, it was the best, most realistic series, it even showed references to Khan and Data
I loved that part of Enterprise! The Time War was stupid, but showing how Humans first started interacting on the galactic stage with the Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites was AWESOME!
Quote:
Originally Posted by hydaspes View Post
Funny how this topic comepletely sidetracks and people start discussing Borg stuff......

Anyway,

I found Archer as a written character (and the way he was acted) in the very least a person of interesting psychology.

Considering that Starfleet is founded in certain base values, Janeway was at many times morally very questionable.

But Archer (ok, there were less rules for him), he was morally irresponsible. I remember him robbing people blind in the middle of space, leaving them with nothing, because the mission was more important and he took what he needed. And that act of piracy was the least of his questionable deeds.

I liked the character, his desperation, fear, inflexibility, weakness and simple mindedness, it made him interesting and realistic. But far from the perfect Captain. That's probably why he was never mentioned by Kirk and Picard, they were not very proud of that episode in the Starfleet history.

But don't forget Archer was the guy that was not meant to get that Captain seat in the first place. The man that actually was supposed to go would have been a far more solid Captain. Archer was basically a test pilot before he got command, not exactly a great qualification.
Well, in Archer's defense(morally), he had to make a "lesser of two evils" choice. The act of Piracy you mentioned was done because he had 2 choices, fail in his mission and watch the Xindi blow up Earth, or do something he knew was morally wrong. It's one of those textbook "there is no right answer" scenarios.

Truthfully, I think he did a good job og making peace between the various warring factions he encountered. Thy'lek Shran and Silik both tried to kill him the first time they met. But both of them eventually respected him and Silik died helping him.
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