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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,045
Proposal Klingon Scout ships

For those of you who might have an objection to this idea, I have tried to anticipate those objections as best I can and included them in my proposal.

"Klingons don't have scientists"
This is wrong.
Since the TOS episode "Day of the Dove" we know Klingon warships carry science officers.

"But Mara was Kang's wife"
True, but "A Klingon's life is his work not his family." -Klag
So it is very unlikely she got that position had she not been suited for it or had there been no need for it on a Klingon Battlecuiser.
There was also a science station on the cruiser "Pagh" in TNG "A Matter of Honor" so it's not out of place on a Klignon warship.

"Klingons are conquerors, not explorers"
While Klingons enjoy conquering quite a lot, they have colonies on various worlds that don't seem to have any indiginous population.
And if a world had one, how did the Klingons find that planet in the first place?

Klingons do go out into space to investigate solar systems.
They do so to see if there are planets that are suitable for colonization or have exploitable resources.
If those worlds are populated they might become subjects of the Klingon Empire when warships arrive to conquer them.
Asteroids can contain valuable materials that can be mined via small mining bases constructed in or near them.
Klingons may investigate nebulae to see if they can be used as power sources etc.

For this they need ships with scientific equipment.
Sure Klingon applications of these scientific systems would be somewhat more "practical" than the way Starfleet would do things but the general functionality would be comparable.

For example Starfleet would survey a mountain to learn something about the age and history of a planet.
Klingons would survey the same mountain to see if it contains valuable minerals.

Starfleet would investigate flaura and fauna to learn something about the way evolution occured on the planet.
Klingons would check for hazards and investigate whether flaura and fauna would make them a good foodsource for a possible colonization.

A Starfleet geologist would analyze the tectonic stability of an area out of interest.
A Klingon geologist would check whether an area is stable enought for a colony, a mine or whether it is suitable for a geothermal powerplant.

Different goals, similar means.
Klingons would probably have ships more suited for long-range scouting missions compared to their battlecruisers.
Relative to their size, these vessels would have greater fuel and material reserves (spare parts) for independent operations.
They would probabaly have more dedicated sensor equipment and far less science labs of any kind than their federation counterparts.
Crew size and armament would be limited due to the need to carry the sensors, supplies etc.

So how do Klingons find new worlds to colonise or conquer?
How do they track enemy fleets?
How do they provide jamming and counter-jamming in battle?

"A sharp blade is useless without a sharp eye"- Koloth in
"Blood Oath"


What's still missing from the KDF roster is a military scout.


"But those are not canon"
Is that so?
The Raptor was actually called "scout ship" in "Sleeping Dogs".
Kruge's Bird of Prey was called that as well.
In the unremastered version of TOS there was also a Klingon scout ship.
There is also soft-canon reference to Klingon scouts which were 1/3rd the size of a contemporary cruiser.
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Klingon_scout_vessel
So it's consistent those are not shuttlecraft but starships in their own right.

By the 24th century it seems the Klingons were still using scouts even though their class remains unknown.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Klingon_scout_ship

Please note that since the crew of DS9 did not just refer to them a "Bird of Prey" it must be a seperate
class while the Bird of Prey was no longer used as a scout.

"Shut up and use the BoP, it's got universals"
Despite this, the BoP is ill-equipped since it lacks the science consoles to do all these things.
In STO "science" does not exclusively equal "research", it equals space for good sensors, jamming equipment etc.
A ship with proper science capabilities of Klingon design is simply missing.

"So you want a Klingon copy of a Fed science ship"
No, what I propose is something seperate from science ships.
I'd like to propose a ship derived from Raptors.
Less guns, more electronic warfare.
Federation designs are pretty much derived from cruisers.
Thus a Klingon scout design would be smaller than an average Federation science ship but more maneuverable.

Here are example stats:

Tier 5 Military Scout.

Commander Science
Lieutenant Commander Science

Lieutenant Engineering
Lieutenant Tactical
Ensign Tactical


Crew: 150
Turnrate: 15
Hull: 33,000
Shield mod: 1.0
Weapons 3/2
No Subsytem targeting
Sensor Analysis
Can use Cannons
Cloak

Consoles:
Engineering:3
Science:4
Tactical:2
Bonus Power:
+5 Engines
+10 Aux

*changed "No Sensor Analysis" to "Sensor Analysis" based
on Jermbot's feedback*

Aestetically I'd propose a Raptor with visible sensor arrays along its hull.
There is no need for any complex changes to an existing Raptor model so this would be rather simple to implement.

Last edited by misterde3; 09-07-2012 at 01:58 AM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 52
# 2
09-02-2012, 06:48 AM
Nice but the only problem is Cryptic doesn't seem to care about new KDF ships.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 462
# 3
09-06-2012, 04:51 AM
I think you overdid it in terms of making the ship balanced. It has very low damage and a low shield modifier. I understand you're balancing a science vessel with a cloak and cannons, but this ships alpha strike is going to be to decloak, unload with crf1, then unload its science abilities. Or maybe it'll decloak, unload its science abilities in hopes of getting their shields down and then unloading with a hyt1. Either way its painful lack of weapons and tactical officers will make this a dicey proposition and its low shield multiplier will make it hard for even a science specific ship to get out again.

I think removing subsystem targeting is enough and putting a third weapon on the back would be reasonable. If its using cannons than that'll just be a turret and so a marginal dps increase, if someone wants to fly it as a beam boat, than that'll give it slightly more damage than a fed science vessel to counter act its lower survivability.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,045
# 4
09-06-2012, 06:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spartangamer View Post
Nice but the only problem is Cryptic doesn't seem to care about new KDF ships.
Thanks...I think.
Well they said they'd listen if we told them in a proper manner what we want.
Without a guarantee they'd agree of course.
But this way I can at least say I honestly tried.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,045
# 5
09-06-2012, 06:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jermbot View Post
I think you overdid it in terms of making the ship balanced. It has very low damage and a low shield modifier. I understand you're balancing a science vessel with a cloak and cannons, but this ships alpha strike is going to be to decloak, unload with crf1, then unload its science abilities. Or maybe it'll decloak, unload its science abilities in hopes of getting their shields down and then unloading with a hyt1. Either way its painful lack of weapons and tactical officers will make this a dicey proposition and its low shield multiplier will make it hard for even a science specific ship to get out again.

I think removing subsystem targeting is enough and putting a third weapon on the back would be reasonable. If its using cannons than that'll just be a turret and so a marginal dps increase, if someone wants to fly it as a beam boat, than that'll give it slightly more damage than a fed science vessel to counter act its lower survivability.
*crunches some numbers*
Perhaps you're right.
The idea was to prevent too high burst damage during the decloaking phase.
A turnrate similar to that of a Raptor was supposed to allow the ship to basically pick a shield arc and put its damage where it hurts the most, countering the lack of Senesor Analysis.

Assuming the numbers on STOwiki regarding DPV and DPS are correct the ship might indeed be undergunned.
When I take the gradual increase in damage provided by Sensor Analysis into account the bonus from a decloaking attack might not be enough to offset the 3/2 armament.

Mk XI Dual Cannon is listed at 183 DPV and 244 DPS
Mk XI Turret 95 DPV 126 DPS
MkXI Beam Array at 210 DPV 168 DPS

So a scout with your proposed 3/3 would have 2*244+2*126=740 DPS
With cloak bonus 851 DPS (not couting torps)

And a Science ship would have 4*168=672 DPS
With Sensor Analysis this would increase to 894 DPS (not counting Torps)

An alternative would be to keep the armament at 3/2 and add Sensor Analysis back in,
yielding 2*244+126=614 DPS (817 with SA, not counting Torps)

So possibly leaving the armament at 3/2 (which would also cut down on the power demands) and putting SA back in might be a workable compromise.
This way the scout could have an edge during the decloaking phase and still keep an edge thanks to its maneuverability despite the limited armament.

The increased hull and turnrate was intended to compensate for a shield modifier identical to that of a cruiser.
I had intentionally left out an impulse mod but I guess a Raptor-like 0.2 could increase the defense value so the ship could survive long enough to get in and get out...?

Thanks for the feedback.

Last edited by misterde3; 09-06-2012 at 06:48 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 437
# 6
09-06-2012, 07:57 AM
nicely done.

would be a nice ship to have
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,302
# 7
09-06-2012, 08:04 AM
I don't believe Klingon military doctrine allows for the large outlaying of resources to develop such a large non-combat starship when the 'traditional' and purpose built scout ship is still so plentiful.

The Bird-of prey.
KBF Lord MalaK
Awoken Dead

You're gonna upgrade my Chel Grett for FREE but charge me $30 to upgrade my Kamarag ?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 567
# 8
09-06-2012, 08:19 AM
Actually, the Raptor is officially classified as a "Scout"

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Raptor_class

Quote:
The Klingon Raptor was a type of scout ship first encountered by the Vulcans sometime prior to 2151. As such, the vessel was listed in the Vulcan database, however, much of the information on the class remained classified.
As per the ENT episode "Sleeping Dogs"




Then again, Memory Alpha has quite a few "scout" ships listed for Klingons:
Quote:
Klingon scout ships

Bird-of-Prey
D7 class
K'toch-class
Raptor-class
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Scout


So does that make the loadout define the role, not the ship?
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Last edited by jnohd; 09-06-2012 at 08:21 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,159
# 9
09-06-2012, 08:26 AM
The scout and science role is filled by the bop already.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,045
# 10
09-06-2012, 08:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnohd View Post
Actually, the Raptor is officially classified as a "Scout"

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Raptor_class



As per the ENT episode "Sleeping Dogs"




Then again, Memory Alpha has quite a few "scout" ships listed for Klingons:

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Scout


So does that make the loadout define the role, not the ship?
The reason the D7 is listed under scout is a rather strange one.
In the Episode "Friday's Child" the Klingon (Kras, according to the script) states he came in a scout ship.
In the unremastered episode the scoutship looked like this:

http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/...days_Child.jpg

so it was a distinctly different design from the D7 that appeared later in the show.
For the remastered version it was, strangely enough, replaced with a standard D7 model.
Hence the D7 is listed as a scout on Mem Alpha.
It's based on a bizarre change in special effects.
Of course a possible retroactive explanation is that Kras just lied about the ship he came in.
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