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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 176
# 21
09-03-2012, 06:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by red01999 View Post
According to another thread I started (and ended up with me gathering a lot of data about the Science versus the Tac Odyssey that people asked for but never bothered to comment on ), the extra energy, at least for weapons, CAN act as a buffer. So let's say that you pump the weapons up to 134 with EPtW. It'll only hit with 125, but it will keep the drain from being so bad during the volley. Note that I have NEVER tried to measure this myself, so I can't say for certain how this works out from my own experience.
I thought one of the more recent seasons hard capped power levels at 125 so that buffing your power levels above 125 to maximize damage was no longer a valid option. If that's wrong I'll probably redo my energy presets soon.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 22
09-03-2012, 07:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maelwy5 View Post
The Excelsior has basically been rendered obsolete by the Assault Refit, and a comparison in DPS capabilities between the Assault Refit and an Odyssey (with identical Equipment) really comes down to a difference in Tactical BOFF ability Slots:

A Tac Ody can work with an example setup of:
Lt Tac: TT1, FAW2
Lt Sci: HE1, TSS2
Com Engineer: EPTS1, Aux2Damp1 or RSP1 or ES1, EPTS3, Aux2SIF3
LtCom Universal: (Tac) TT1, TS2, APB2
Ensign Universal: (Tac) FAW1


or (for a Sci Ody, or if you want to push a Tac's weapons power above 125):

Lt Tac: TT1, FAW2
Lt Sci: HE1, TSS2
Com Engineer: EPTW1, EPTS2, EPTS3, Aux2SIF3
LtCom Universal: (Tac) TT1, TS2, APB2
Ensign Universal: (Eng) EPTW1

In contrast, the Assault Refit really needs to use its LT Universal Slot for a Sci BOFF, so compared to an Ody it'll lose out on at the very least a LT Tac ability.

Concerning the two Ody variants: Sensor Analysis is better damage if you're spending longer than 30 seconds on a target. If you're not, the 3rd Tactical Console from the Tac Ody is better.

At the OP.

There is a good deal of unnecessary arguing, and derailing in this thread.

You need to look no further than maelw5' post for the best answer to your question available.


That being said, if all you are doing is fleet alerts and STFs, you can safely choose pretty much any of the 3 and have no issues. (I only mention this because you seem to prefer the AC-R).
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,143
# 23
09-03-2012, 08:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by razellis View Post
I thought one of the more recent seasons hard capped power levels at 125 so that buffing your power levels above 125 to maximize damage was no longer a valid option. If that's wrong I'll probably redo my energy presets soon.
Yep, AFAIK that is correct too. I believe there used to be a "soft cap" but this is no longer available. As it is not possible to know if you have selected 125 or 126 I always set mine to 124.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 24
09-03-2012, 08:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattjohnsonva View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by razellis View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by red01999
According to another thread I started (and ended up with me gathering a lot of data about the Science versus the Tac Odyssey that people asked for but never bothered to comment on ), the extra energy, at least for weapons, CAN act as a buffer. So let's say that you pump the weapons up to 134 with EPtW. It'll only hit with 125, but it will keep the drain from being so bad during the volley. Note that I have NEVER tried to measure this myself, so I can't say for certain how this works out from my own experience.
I thought one of the more recent seasons hard capped power levels at 125 so that buffing your power levels above 125 to maximize damage was no longer a valid option. If that's wrong I'll probably redo my energy presets soon.
Yep, AFAIK that is correct too. I believe there used to be a "soft cap" but this is no longer available. As it is not possible to know if you have selected 125 or 126 I always set mine to 124.
Currently, you're right in that you can never have a weapons power higher than 125.

The way it works though, is that for beams any energy over 125 acts as a buffer for when you start to fire your weapons and your weapons energy level drops under 125. We've all pretty much decided that this behaviour is a bug, but there's no sign of it being fixed anytime soon and you can use it if you want to in order to increase your sustained damage output.

Cannons/Turrets/Etc. don't use this buffer and don't care.

(linky #1 to original proof of concept, and linky #2 to thread derailed by further testing on this which ultimately proved that this "buffer" was still working for beams and not for cannons)

[Edit - and as an aside: Thanks to red01999 for the testing, I did take a look at it!!]

[ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]

Last edited by maelwy5; 09-03-2012 at 08:54 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,983
# 25
09-04-2012, 01:27 AM
Ok, going back to ships here, I have noticed nobody has really analysed the excelsior.

While I play an engineer as my main I play all three my main is equipped with the Excelsior-R my ship build shown below.

Ship build

Weapons (Same both ends)
Quantum torpedo launcher Mk XII [CrtD] [CrtH] [Borg]
Polarised tetryon Beam array Mk XI
Phased tetryon Beam array Mk XI [Acc] [Dmg]
Tetryon Beam array Mk XII [Acc] [CrtH] [Borg]

Equipment
Deflector: M.A.C.O. Graviton Deflector Array MK XII
Engines: M.A.C.O. Impulse Engines Mk XII
Shields: M.A.C.O. Resilient Shield Array Mk XII

Consoles

Engineering:
Monotanium Alloy Mk XI (Blue quality)
Neutronium Alloy Mk XI (Blue quality)
Neutronium Alloy Mk XI (Blue quality)
Assimilated Module

Science:
Field generator Mk XI (Blue quality)
Field generator Mk XI (Blue quality)

Tactical:
Tetryon pulse generator Mk XI (Blue quality)
Tetryon pulse generator Mk XI (Blue quality)
Tetryon pulse generator Mk XI (Blue quality)

Bridge officers
Tactical (Lt. CMDR): Tactical team I, High Yield Torpedo II, Beam Fire At Will III
Engineering (CMDR): Emergency Power To Weapons I, Reverse Shield Polarity I, Emergency Power To Shields III, Eject Warp Plasma III
Engineering (Lt.): Engineering Team I, Auxiliary Power To Structural Integrity Field I
Engineering (Ensign): Emergency Power To Auxiliary I
Science (Lt.) Science Team I, Jam Targeting Sensors II

This build gives me 11.5k per shield and has seen off Oddys running full sets (in the hands of tac captain at grade 41 running nothing higher than Mk 8 equipment and weapons) I've also used it to see off the Regent class on multiple occasions, there isn't much the game can throw at this that my engineer can't handle. The extra turn rate gives tacticals an advantage aswell (having played science ships now aswell) I can tell you with the turn boost from AP:A it turns slightly better than a science vessel allowing you make effective use of torps and dual beam arrays for that extra damage spike they give you.

I have also built a tac oddy, I used the above build apart from the Lt. CMDR uni slot got used for a science and I ran 8 beams, with the power levels set custom it never dipped below 300 damage per hit but maxed out about 1700 same as my excelsior (my tacticals can push the excelsior to about 2500-3000) the Oddy made a brilliant tank and shield stripper and had I built the BOFFs to lay debuffs on a target it could likely have done some more damage again but due to it's turn rate it kinda disappointed me.

I can't say I've played the Regent but As I said above I have fought them, the torp sounds like fun and I could never get used to being hit with one during their broadsides, the metryon gas is both a strength and weakness, it can be set off prematurely by your enemy causing fair damage to yourself and (if played right) none to them, I'm not going to go into looks as that's not what a ship should be about.

In closing, a well played Excelsior is well worth using and will rival if not beat both others on the market when exploiting their weaknesses, for Oddys the turn rate and for the regent is metryon gas, however if you can play them all to their strengths no one of these should really be better than any of the others

P.S. Sorry about the long post
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 26
09-04-2012, 05:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Ok, going back to ships here, I have noticed nobody has really analysed the excelsior.
The Excelsior has a slightly better Turnrate than the Regent, but the Regent has a slightly more beneficial energy weighting (higher Weapons Power).

The main thing that seperates them is the BOFF loadout: the Excelsior has three Engineering BOFF slots, and the third one (Ensign) is often viewed as largely superfluous, whereas the Regent is able to run 2x Tac Team 1s (which gives it more room for an extra Damage-output-boosting Tactical power, or at the very least frees up a few DOFF slots). Both ships can run 2xEPTS and 2xEPTW for permanent uptime on both, plus Aux2SIF... and have enough room left for at least one extra ability - Extend Shields, RSP, EWP, Aux2Damp, Aux2Bat, etc can all be situationally useful.

[ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,983
# 27
09-04-2012, 06:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maelwy5 View Post
The Excelsior has a slightly better Turnrate than the Regent, but the Regent has a slightly more beneficial energy weighting (higher Weapons Power)
Well as I said, if played to their strengths no one ship should come out on top, I have fought both others with my Excelsior and come out on top and on the occasions I didn't it was a stalemate. at the end of the day it depends upon your play style... just don't let a ships age put you off... it's still in service for a reason.

Frankly I don't have a problem with my Excelsiors power levels I squeeze out the following:
Weapons: 100/80
Shields: 90/70
Engines: 50/25
Aux: 40/25

and when I run my EPtW/S the affected power level goes beyond the max and your Regent or Oddy would benefit as much from off scale power as my Excelsior does... oh wait... it doesn't. So yeah, they all have near equal combat capability although for someone who wants to make good use of a torp launcher I'm afraid the oddy lacks a little due to it's turn rate and anybody who knows how to counter the Riker manouver will use that against the Regent for good damage aswell.

The main thing you seem to be forgetting about the Excelsior is her Lt. CMDR tactical station, it's all well and good having 2 Lt. Tacticals or a Lt and a Lt. CMDR (in the case of the oddy but for MY personal play style that's a waste) but a Lt. CMDR Tac station gives you focus on one weapon type E.G. TT1, FAW2/3, BO2/3 or you can have bonus to both weapon types or have a beam boost and an attack pattern.

I an willing to pull my engineer out and show you what it's capable of... I would do it with the tactical but she lacks the equipment
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 28
09-04-2012, 06:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
and when I run my EPtW/S the affected power level goes beyond the max and your Regent or Oddy would benefit as much from off scale power as my Excelsior does... oh wait... it doesn't.
Firstly; "off scale" weapons power does benefit certain weapons (beams) because it acts as a buffer for those weapons whenever you'd otherwise drop under 125 weapons power. See post #24 in this thread for links to proof of this behaviour.

Secondly; the Tac Ody and the Regent both have an extra 5 weapons energy, it doesn't sound like much, but it means that the ship can hit the maximum weapons power cap of 125 without running EPTW if it needs to. (That's 125/100 weapons power: attainable by taking the Borg Console, 9/9 Skillpoints in 'Starship Warp Core Potential' and 3/9 in 'Starship Weapons Performance')

Note that it's technically possible for the Excelsior to hit that 125/100 value as well - but it'll need to spend a lot more points in 'Starship Weapons Performance' to do so: right the way up to 9/9.

Quote:
The main thing you seem to be forgetting about the Excelsior is her Lt. CMDR tactical station
I'm not forgetting anything: the Odyssey and the Regent both also have a LtCom Tac slot (the Ody's LtCom is a Universal slot, but it's simple enough to use it for a Tac BOFF without sacrificing much survivability - check the builds I listed above in post #10 in this very thread).

1. The Excelsior has a LtCom Tac slot.
2. The Regent has a LtCom Tac slot AND an Ensign Tac slot.
3. The Odyssey potentially has a LtCom Tac slot AND an Ensign Tac slot AND a Lt Tac slot.

Of the three possibilities, the Excelsior therefore has the lowest potential for damage output.

One extra point of base turnrate is, unfortunately, the only thing the Excelsior has going for it. Whether that's enough to justify taking the ship or not is up for debate, and really comes down to the playstyle of the individual pilot. My own view is that it's not worth the tradeoff, because the Regent's turnrate isn't too far behind it, and the Odyssey will usually have 'Chevron Seperation' available.

[ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]

Last edited by maelwy5; 09-04-2012 at 06:51 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 422
# 29
09-04-2012, 06:49 AM
i wish cryptic would just allow boff slots to scale with tier so that every tier 5 ship had 5 universal commander slots, 5 fore and aft weapon slots, 15 universal console slots, 5 device slots.

Then that would force them to build exceptional ships that have strong stats and be more maneuverable, and better overall. This would allow Captains to balance their own ships, and would help balance overall.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,983
# 30
09-04-2012, 07:15 AM
Like I said when I posted my build, so far my Excelsiors have beaten both the other ships mentioned here in pvp but each to their own. I personally find the excelsior more fun to play aswell but that's just me.
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