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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,203
# 11
09-03-2012, 04:45 PM
if you are purchasing i would not discount the Excelsior. she turn on a freaking dime. you can utilize a DBB torp 2 beam front 3 beam aft and torp. BOL2 and APO 3 along with TT1 ad you are rockin well
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,063
# 12
09-04-2012, 12:44 AM
For what it's worth I have a thread (somewhat derailed) on tactical cruisers right now. However, it seems that your goals are a bit different than mine. So!

First: You're looking for a mega-tank, and you want a tactical cruiser. While hardly impossible, this is sub-optimal. If you want a high tanking cruiser, then your best choices are the Science Odyssey (I would not recommend the Ops Odyssey, although it's got saucer sep which is VERY important if you want to be able to switch to agile-fight mode), the Galaxy-R, and the Star Cruiser.

Ultimately you're going to have to decide which way you want to lean - DPS or tanking. Tactical cruisers lean DPS, tanking cruisers lean eng or sci. All cruisers can tank, just that some have more of an edge in one department or another.

So let's take a look at the options you've presented.

* Assault Cruiser - the stock Assault Cruiser is basically the 'default' end-game cruiser, and it continues to be competitive. Very very well balanced, and it can do just about anything you want it to. I would say you'd do well in this. HOWEVER, the Mirror Assault Cruiser is a VERY SLIGHTLY BETTER TANK. It has 1000 crew, whereas the regular AC has 800. This does have a small, but measurable effect on your hull regeneration rate. So they are close but not purely, identical. The AC is a unique beast in some regards, though, seeing as how it's basically poised dead-center among all the cruisers in terms of capabilities - it's not the best at anything, but it's good enough that it can often take two categories and break a superior, focused opponent. I hear fairly regularly that AC's in the hands of the right players are an absolute nightmare to fight.

* Regent - This is a weaker tank by a bit due to shuffling around of BOff slots, but it has higher DPS. If you like to live dangerously you can slot a tac into the universal slot and use it to break things, but most people who want to live period will slot in the science officer, as you indicated. However, this is not really a huge loss IMO. It is not, however, as good at tanking as the default AC - it simply isn't.

* Tactical Odyssey - Let's look at what the tac Ody offers. Big, slow, heavy armor, ten consoles, heavy firepower, Aquarius, extra console for weapons, +10 weapon power bonus. Not too shabby, but let's take a closer look. First off, if you want to hit hard you're going to need to slot a Tac into the Lt. Cmdr slot (and possibly an Engineer in the Ensign slot for an EPtW chain or something like that). This is actually IMO a pretty good combo, and I run it, but if your main goal is to be a mega-tank it's sub-optimal. If you want a superior tanking layout with this ship you'll need to borrow the layout from the AC or the Star Cruiser, really. Which negates much of its tac-ness.

The Aquarius, unfortunately, is IMO a waste of a console slot. I'd ditch it. Although some people can make it work, I have nicknamed it the Barge of the Dead. It just doesn't hit hard enough or last long enough to make a difference in most meaningful fights, though in its defense, on RARE occasion it can really pleasantly surprise you.

However, the Tac Ody is NOT the most optimum tank ever. Although it does have heavier armor (42K HP) than almost any other ship and a 1.15 shield modifier that helps to mitigate it, simple fact of the matter is you've still got the fundamental DPS vs. endurance trade-off for BOffs, and if you want to hit hard you're going to have to sacrifice a bit of endurance, and vice-versa.

Metreon Gas vs. Aquarius - IMO? Both pretty much suck, sad to say. However, as a science officer you might be spec'd into things like Particle Generators, which might make you better at getting the most out of it. IIRC I heard that this stat can boost the DPS, but I don't know the details.

The 180 degree qtorp, however, is pure awesome. I now equip it on any cruiser I'm going to send out, although I'm probably not going to use it on my escorts (they probably don't need it).

My personal thoughts: That is a TOUGH one. I am a tac leaning player by nature (even though my first toon was an engineer). If you want to hit as hard as possible, dump the AC from the list - she's good but she's not going to match the firepower of either. Although the Tactical Odyssey will let you switch your BOff slots around more so you have more "value" there if it turns you you don't like your original plan. However, the Regent is also a very solid craft. Truth be told, it's reminding me more and more of a permanent saucer-sep Ody with more endurance and less speed.

So my thoughts on what are BEST? I can't tell you. This is the crux of the thread I posted (except the Excel-R is in the Regent's place). I can say however, that IMO the value of a tac Ody goes up immensely if you have the three-pack, because you can then slot in saucer separation (IMO the most important console in the set), and work bees (helpful for both healing and tanking), and you get some tanking, turning, set cooldown and energy bonuses if you have all three equipped. I do know however that both the Regent and the Odyssey are capable, hard-hitting ships that have a lot to offer. I also know that, from PERSONAL preference? I'd probably only pick up the Ody pack (as I did), because the Ody is too dang slow without saucer sep as an option. While I'm happy with my purchase of the Odyssey pack, I don't think I would be happy if I had only one of them, except MAYBE the Ops Ody - as much as I hate the hull, saucer sep is invaluable to me.

That said, there is a downside if you consider picking up the Ody pack, one that few note - it eats up your console slots if you equip the set. Seriously. Your 10-console pseudo-fleet cruiser becomes a powerful cruiser with many toys, but one with only seven console slots. It's a difficult choice to figure out where to, say, slip in the Borg console.

I wish I could give you more advice, but I'm in the same boat, really, but hopefully my observations will at least help.

As a final note, if you decide to go with the Science Odyssey, while Sensor Analysis is good, it takes, IIRC, over a minute of dedicated, unbroken lock against an opponent to catch up to and surpass the damage potential of having three tactical consoles instead of two. I would not recommend it as a DPS-centric cruiser, although for your particular situation it might work out pretty well, seeing as how IMO the Aquarius isn't very good, and it has the best AUX bonus of all the cruisers.

Last edited by red01999; 09-04-2012 at 12:50 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,110
# 13
09-04-2012, 01:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by red01999 View Post
i generaly agree with your statements...but i think you are off with the one minute of sensor analysis to surpas the 3rd tactical console.

in my experiance it takes about 30 sec or less to surpass the tactical console (rare mkxi)...

also if the 3 set pieces didn't have the additional stats to: +12 Starship Hull Plating
+12 Starship Armor Reinforcements
+12 Starship Electro-Plasma System

it would really be wiser to leave the aquarius in the dock. but looking at the 2 other consoles as quit good and the 3rd as the console that gives those stats, it is acceptable.

as i understand it, the aquarius also has a point defense system build into it, that seems usefull in certain situations in a fighter rich environment.
Go pro or go home

Last edited by baudl; 09-04-2012 at 01:29 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 702
# 14
09-04-2012, 02:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
in my experiance it takes about 30 sec or less to surpass the tactical console (rare mkxi)...
30 seconds is great, except the only thing you'll be shooting at for that long in an STF is a Tactical Cube or a Gateway. Otherwise, the enemies (Spheres, or Probes) you're shooting at die well before you've surpassed the amount of damage you get from a Tac Console. So might as well go with the Tac Cruiser and get the extra outright damage.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,063
# 15
09-04-2012, 10:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
i generaly agree with your statements...but i think you are off with the one minute of sensor analysis to surpas the 3rd tactical console.

in my experiance it takes about 30 sec or less to surpass the tactical console (rare mkxi)...

also if the 3 set pieces didn't have the additional stats to: +12 Starship Hull Plating
+12 Starship Armor Reinforcements
+12 Starship Electro-Plasma System

it would really be wiser to leave the aquarius in the dock. but looking at the 2 other consoles as quit good and the 3rd as the console that gives those stats, it is acceptable.

as i understand it, the aquarius also has a point defense system build into it, that seems usefull in certain situations in a fighter rich environment.
Note that I am not saying that DPS will take 60 seconds to surpass. I am saying the damage TOTAL will take 60 seconds to surpass. There was a spreadsheet posted on the forums (I'll look it up when I have more time) that had this all worked out, and I believe it came in at around a full minute for the accumulated damage (assuming you were firing the entire time) of the SA Science Ody to surpass that of a three-tac-console Tac Ody, or something along those lines.

There's also the fact that a number of opponents can give you the slip, at least in PvP, and at least a few in PvE that can do so (e.g. Sensor Jamming, cloaking, etc.) On a recent PvP excursion someone managed to slip out of my sensor lock on my Science Odyssey repeatedly (SOMEHOW - I don't know /what/ he was running but it seemed like it kept refocusing sensor lock at something else), and as a result kicked my face in but good. I'm pretty sure I might have had a chance at victory if I had the Tactical Odyssey, but as-is I just couldn't muster up the firepower to match his attack rate, because SA was barely useful at all.

Another thing to note is that while the target lock lingers, you lose the SA buff if you switch targets, which includes both to other opponents and helping comrades or one of your deployed pets. This ought to give one pause, especially since the Science Ody's work bee console is INTENDED to help others (along with yourself).
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 372
# 16
09-04-2012, 11:04 AM
yes, that helps. So I'm thinking Regent so far. Here's why. Right now, I use the Assault Cruser like this: Lt Tac-Beam Overload 1, Torpedo High Yield 2. Ens. Tac, Tactical Team 1. Commander Eng-EPtS 1, Eng Team 2, RSP2, Aceton Beam 3. Lt Com Eng-EPtW, EPtS 2, Aux to structural 2. Lt Sci-Sci Team 1, HE2.

Now, switching to Regent, Id be able to add maybe Attack pattern Beta to the tactical mix, and Id only lose Aux to structural from my Eng abilities, which i have found to be underwhelming IMO. I think it works much better to keep the shields up anyway. plus i love broadsiding, so the wide angle quantum sounds perfect for a rear arc. what do you think?

Last edited by djf021; 09-04-2012 at 11:35 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,351
# 17
09-04-2012, 12:20 PM
I am going to be the oddball here. Consider buying the T5 Nebula (or if you can get the Fleet Nebula, even better). You can get well over 13k per shield facing, 40kish hull and the LT. Universal slotted out for an Engineer Boff. You still have all of the science slots you need to create science officer havoc and automatic target systems abilities.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,063
# 18
09-04-2012, 02:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djf021 View Post
yes, that helps. So I'm thinking Regent so far. Here's why. Right now, I use the Assault Cruser like this: Lt Tac-Beam Overload 1, Torpedo High Yield 2. Ens. Tac, Tactical Team 1. Commander Eng-EPtS 1, Eng Team 2, RSP2, Aceton Beam 3. Lt Com Eng-EPtW, EPtS 2, Aux to structural 2. Lt Sci-Sci Team 1, HE2.

Now, switching to Regent, Id be able to add maybe Attack pattern Beta to the tactical mix, and Id only lose Aux to structural from my Eng abilities, which i have found to be underwhelming IMO. I think it works much better to keep the shields up anyway. plus i love broadsiding, so the wide angle quantum sounds perfect for a rear arc. what do you think?
I would suggest including Aux2SIF3 and ditch Aceton Beam, the long cooldown mixed with IMO underwhelming performance and the moderate turnrate of an Assault Cruiser makes this a bit of a waste of a commander slot. There's a reason so many BOffs come with it standard.

I would also suggest you consider EPtS3. I don't recall what level RSP starts at, but you may want something like this:

Cmdr Eng - Aux2SIF3, EPtS3, RSP1, EPtS1
Lt Eng - RSP1, ET1

OR

Cmdr Eng - Aux2SIF3, EPtS3, EPtS2, EPtW1
Lt Eng - RSP1, EPtW1

I wouldn't put too much faith in APB. The Attack Patterns are ideal for a tac, because they come with Attack Pattern Alpha, which is probably their most important single captain-level buff, ergo why it makes sense to dump points into the Starship Attack Patterns skill to get at least 6 levels of it. I'm not sure it's so great for the other professions, though.

You may be better served by chaining two copies of TT1, and filling out the other tac slots with HYT2 or TS2, and BO3. I have heard that BO1 is underwhelming, but I have also heard that BO3 is like having a junior version of the Dreadnaught's lance. You may also consider BFaW.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 372
# 19
09-04-2012, 03:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer1 View Post
I am going to be the oddball here. Consider buying the T5 Nebula (or if you can get the Fleet Nebula, even better). You can get well over 13k per shield facing, 40kish hull and the LT. Universal slotted out for an Engineer Boff. You still have all of the science slots you need to create science officer havoc and automatic target systems abilities.
Not a bad idea, but I'm looking for specifically a tactical cruiser, instead of a science vessel.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,110
# 20
09-04-2012, 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by red01999 View Post
I would suggest including Aux2SIF3 and ditch Aceton Beam, the long cooldown mixed with IMO underwhelming performance and the moderate turnrate of an Assault Cruiser makes this a bit of a waste of a commander slot. There's a reason so many BOffs come with it standard.
absolutely true...notice also that aceton beam 1 has sufficent damage rdeuction and has a much much much lower cd...also the aceton beam 2 is even lower. could never figure out why they made aceton 3 with that massive CD. makes no sense, since the damage of this ability is neglegeable.
And aux2SIF3 is a crazy good ability, dmg resi+moderate instant heal+fast CD
Go pro or go home
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