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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 567
# 11
09-11-2012, 08:57 AM
Even if it is intended to be built around a cruiser frame (which I suppose makes sense, relating the pivot point to the nacelles?), then make up for it in other ways:

More turn rating

significantly higher hull

or (my favorite) moving a single weapon slot from the rear to the front on all models.
or some combination of these.

Its simply not as competitive as is should be. The Higher hull would go well with the depiction of the Raptor in Sleeping Dogs (ENT), the additional slot in the front would fit right in with the description in STO's ship vendor for the Raptor class, noting its deadly front arc.

Devs: Jump onto Redshirt, gear up some Escorts and Raptors and see for yourself. Tweak some of the above and see if it balances. Just... do something.
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 131
# 12
09-17-2012, 09:14 AM
I don't really care anymore if they bother to fix it, the Bop is way more fun anyways.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 13
09-17-2012, 12:17 PM
I still care.

If a KDF player chooses to fly the Qin and said player does not cycle ApO or use (2) RCS consoles they get very much out turned by every fed escort and even if they do use those two mentioned ideas they still get outturned by every fed escort.

The DPS output between a Qin and a fed escort may be the same, or at least comparable but without a way to turn overcome the f@#$ed pivot point the Qin can not use its DPS ability in a dogfight.

Now a KDf player can choose to buy the Fleet Somraw and enjoy a better turn pivot and the near same DPS output but thanks to Twitter the Aquarius may now turns as well any BoP making the KDF Raptor choice the bad choice again in a dogfight.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 735
# 14
09-18-2012, 03:59 AM
Just to clarify why the pivot point is an issue:

- The pivot point as a seperate factor does not influence the movement or turnrate of a ship.
- Making a full turn takes just as long as the turnrate indicates.
- Having the pivot point far back gives the raptor a unique look when maneuvering.

The problem is:
- The placement of the gun mounts in relation to the pivot point.
- The distance of the gun mounts from the pivot point.
- This effectively narrows down the forward firing arc.

A related problem may be:
- The placement of the thrusters in relation to the centre of the mass
- If so, this would reduce the Raptors ability to utilize inertia to make fast turns.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 15
09-18-2012, 06:48 AM
I thought the issue was the Pivot too far in the back meant that when attempting to turn the fore part of the ship moves a slow wide path to bring weapons to bear on target while the rear part of the ship doesn't move at all.

Much like holding a pencil by the eraser and attempting to bring the tip to target the front pivots on on the rear while the average fed escort seems to pivot more towards the center line and when the fore part moves the rear part does as well lessening the time to turn and making for tighter turns within the vessels on body length.

I would gladly keep the poor pivot on the Qin if they compensated it for its poor design with a 5th tac console or even a 4/4 weapon set up.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,302
# 16
09-18-2012, 07:55 AM
Well, TBH I've never noticed a problem with the Qin's pivot (or the Pach for that matter), as I see it the further back the pivot point is from the nose the faster the nose rotates around that axis. I actually prefer the pivot point closer to the neutral balance point (because of all the years flight simming).



...Of course, IF the turn rate is calculated based on distance from the ships fulcrum to it's nose EVERY model ship will appear to turn differently from other models, but it's only a visual cue thats off. IF the Qin is build on the cruisers contact points then it should turn the same as a cruiser, but as long and narrow as a Raptor is a cruiser SHOULD turn faster as it's wider and the engines are further apart (I forget if sublight maneuvering is tied to thruster location or impulse location).
KBF Lord MalaK
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Last edited by lordmalak1; 09-18-2012 at 09:14 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 17
09-18-2012, 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordmalak1 View Post
Well, TBH I've never noticed a problem with the Qin's pivot (or the Pach for that matter), as I see it the further back the pivot point is from the nose the faster the nose rotates around that axis. I actually prefer the pivot point closer to the neutral balance point (because of all the years flight simming).



...Of course, IF the turn rate is calculated based on distance from the ships fulcrum to it's nose EVERY model ship will appear to turn differently from other models, but it's only a visual cue thats off. IF the Qin is build on the cruisers contact points then it should turn the same as a cruiser, but as long and narrow as a Raptor is a cruiser SHOULD turn faster as it's wider and the engines are further apart (I forget if sublight maneuvering is tied to thruster location or impulse location).
I believe it is built on a Cruiser frame as it turns like a cruiser and nothing like an Escort or even an escort Carrier. Both of which turn quickly on thier own axis(pivot) to bring weapons to bear to target unlike the Cruisers which turn slower as befits a larger vessel that is more designed for the broadside attack.

What ever changes where made for the fleet Somraw are much better and it turns better than the base Qin. I hope the fleet Qin is simirally tweaked.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Ensign
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 18
# 18
09-19-2012, 02:36 PM
I don't know how much moving the pivot point would change the raptor's agility but I'd
actually prefer keeping the raptor less agile than fed escorts and either make it a bit tougher
or give it increased top speed. The first option would make it unique in many senses, it would
be more distinguishable from either Fed escorts and in extension BoPs and it would fill the
gap between escorts and cruisers (someone once compared the raptor to the A10 Warthog,
I loved that comparison). 2nd option is only there because raptors (especially the Qin)
remind me of the Lockheed Blackbird (no big plane fan, I just kinda like these 2)
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 19
09-19-2012, 09:29 PM
I agree with the OP, the Qin needs to have its pivot point/gun placement issues sorted out.

An improvement to this ship would be an added incentive to buy the fleet version.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,785
# 20
09-19-2012, 10:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
Since it's considered a bug by Cryptic

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...3&postcount=31

I think it's high time.
then, and now, i want this addressed. ya i remember that post saying that now.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus

Last edited by dontdrunkimshoot; 09-20-2012 at 12:14 AM.
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