Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,750
# 11
09-04-2012, 05:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by icegavel View Post
I once tanked a Tactical Cube in Infected Normal for 5 minutes... with its forward side facing me.t... I'm a GOOD tank.
Um... I just got my doffing Engi to 50 a few days ago. I set her up in a T4 Assault Cruiser and can already hold agro and survive just fine in Elite STFs.... And it takes me less than 5 minutes to kill the cube who's agro i'm holding. I don't understand why so many cruiser pilots think merely holding agro and surviving is enough, you need to also kill what you're holding. Its not like you don't have defenses to spare, only in emergencies do I shift full power to shields, all power to weapons is more my style, and live on a steady diet of EPTS 3, yet my standart Assault Cruiser holds agro and survives.

Why be "merely" a damage sponge, kill stuff too!
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,750
# 12
09-04-2012, 05:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yreodred View Post
Personally i would have prefered if they never introduced the Defiant in the first place. I think that such a type of ship doesn't belong to Starfleet or the Star Trek universe at all. I find the very idea of small agile glass cannons in Star Trek greatly inappropriate and improper IMO.
I could not disagree more. Escorts finally complete the picture of Starfleet as a viable military organization and the Federation as a spacefaring civilization. Section 31 helped make sense of how the usually hapless Starfleet and Federation managed to survive so long and Escorts are a ship that was sorely needed as something more suited for war than explorer ships putting on airs.

What If there had been a serious war between the federation and anyone else? Does anyone really see the Galaxy Class being more than a speedbump to one of those giant Romulan Warbirds (D' something, i can never say it or spell it.... sneaky roms!) or much less the armed to the teeth KDF cruisers? What would protect federation colonies from fast BoP raids? Does no one remember the alternate timeline where the Enterprize C did not die defending the Klingon colony?

No, Escorts were needed for the federation and Starfleet to make sense. If nothing else they provide a genuine deterrent as something that an enemy would fear to mess with. And they are NOT glass cannons. Why do people insist on using outdated gaming concepts like that? Just as Cruisers are NOT tanks that can't hurt a fly.

SO many things to respond to in this thread.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,343
# 13
09-04-2012, 07:00 PM
Ok, I'm not going to say that escorts shouldn't exist because ever since the first planes when to war there have been dogfights but they still shouldn't hold more power in a fight than EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE GAME! And actually just because a galaxy class EXPLORATION vessel can't handle a warship doesn't mean that a federation WARSHIP (such ships did and do exist) can't do it, look at the star trek universe excelsiors, capable of exploration, long range, long term, highly scientific missions but for it's time it was far better equipped to defend it'self than almost anything that would follow it, but this was back when Starfleet built multi-purpose vessels.

Look at Voyager, Voyager played with the borg on multiple occasions, dealt with 8472, something the borg couldn't, that was a 'lowly' intrepid class science (actually it was exploration if you watch the show) vessel, so don't tell me that starfleet cruisers are nothing more than a speedbump, you look at the dominion war, the Galaxy/Ambassador class EXPLORATION ships scored more kills than the defiants etc. escorting them. So yeah, Starfleet exploration vessels were a force to be reckoned with they only created the defiant to combat the borg, they only drafted them into the dominion conflict because dominion attack ships were beating starfleet's heavy vessels due to their lacking manoeuvrability (a problem the excelsiors and intrepids never suffered from) it was only then that Starfleet decided high damage on weak chassis was a good idea and then they created the Prommy (5 of which could do what you would need 15-20 defiants for so a far better build) and notice how few of those they built.

Edit: I just remembered in DS9 Paradise lost the Defiant on it's way to Earth was intercepted by the USS Lakota Excelsior class refit (updated weapons, shields, sensors and I think power system aswell, a large group of these were built as well, that goes to show just how useful the excelsior EXPLORATION cruiser was 200 years after the USS Excelsior was commissioned) however back to the point, the defiant bridge crew stated at somepoint they were out matched and more importantly OUTGUNNED and the only reason they made it to Earth was because they convinced the Lakota to stop firing. So yeah, this is proof that cruisers should be the be all and end all in a battle, not escorts

Last edited by adamkafei; 09-04-2012 at 07:24 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 895
# 14
09-04-2012, 07:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reginamala78 View Post
One, cruisers are much more iconic so it makes sense that people playing for 'Trekness' would largely pick them. And the Odyssey is officially 'The Flagship,' whether its actually better or not.

Two, have you played much endgame? Cruisers are numerous, but escorts rule the roost already (and definately don't need buffing). I play cruisers and sci because escorts bore me, but numerically my escorts are a heck of a lot more effective than anything else.
"Have I played much endgame content?" Hmm... 4 max level characters, at least 1 of each profession, 370 days of subscription, gotten the mark 10 MACO set and most of the mark 11 (horrible drop luck)... Killed an assimilated Gorn, fought the Tholian project leader, destroyed ALL the Breen Capital Ships...

I don't know, you tell me.
CHARACTER GRID (@Lord-Ice):
___ |___ _ Fed ____| ____ _KDF __ ____| Rom
Tac_|_Thomas Hale_| __ __Illusion _____| Silence (K)
Eng | ___Antilles _ _| _ Mirror Rygobeth__| N'Vek (F)
Sci _| __ Rygobeth _| _Lukor Son of Q'Tar | Devala (F)
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,808
# 15
09-04-2012, 08:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by icegavel View Post
"Have I played much endgame content?" Hmm... 4 max level characters, at least 1 of each profession, 370 days of subscription, gotten the mark 10 MACO set and most of the mark 11 (horrible drop luck)... Killed an assimilated Gorn, fought the Tholian project leader, destroyed ALL the Breen Capital Ships...

I don't know, you tell me.
Then I stand corrected (though yeah you have the worst drop luck. I've got 7 Mk12 sets in 6 months). Though more meant as one of those 'have we been playing the same game?' kinda comments (nuance doesn't always work in text), because I just don't see how if you've been playing much endgame you get to the perceptions that cruisers rule. They're more numerous and popular, but escorts just demolish everything and are almost as good of tanks and healers if built right. Someone on here mentioned tanking an elite cube for 5 minutes in a cruiser, whereas I can dig out my patrol escort and kill it in under 2, and I'm not a very good pilot (assuming they're talking about the normal cube, not the tac). 5 cruisers can beat an ESTF without too much problem, but 5 escorts will shred it in half the time. My understanding of PVP play (which I admit is entirely from reading; I don't like that kind of gameplay) is that its similar, where tanky cruisers are mostly ignored except as healers, sci ships are gimped, and escort vs escort is where the main (not all, but main) action is.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 895
# 16
09-04-2012, 08:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reginamala78 View Post
Then I stand corrected (though yeah you have the worst drop luck. I've got 7 Mk12 sets in 6 months). Though more meant as one of those 'have we been playing the same game?' kinda comments (nuance doesn't always work in text), because I just don't see how if you've been playing much endgame you get to the perceptions that cruisers rule. They're more numerous and popular, but escorts just demolish everything and are almost as good of tanks and healers if built right. Someone on here mentioned tanking an elite cube for 5 minutes in a cruiser, whereas I can dig out my patrol escort and kill it in under 2, and I'm not a very good pilot (assuming they're talking about the normal cube, not the tac). 5 cruisers can beat an ESTF without too much problem, but 5 escorts will shred it in half the time. My understanding of PVP play (which I admit is entirely from reading; I don't like that kind of gameplay) is that its similar, where tanky cruisers are mostly ignored except as healers, sci ships are gimped, and escort vs escort is where the main (not all, but main) action is.
No, I meant the Tac. Took full fire from a normal-level Tac Cube for 5 minutes with an unrefined tanking build. But people have missed the point of the topic. I never once said "Cruisers rule," except for getting close in the FAR OVER EXAGGERATION of the BOff layout segment. I was merely asking why they're so popular if stuff was better and they turn so horribly.
CHARACTER GRID (@Lord-Ice):
___ |___ _ Fed ____| ____ _KDF __ ____| Rom
Tac_|_Thomas Hale_| __ __Illusion _____| Silence (K)
Eng | ___Antilles _ _| _ Mirror Rygobeth__| N'Vek (F)
Sci _| __ Rygobeth _| _Lukor Son of Q'Tar | Devala (F)
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,839
# 17
09-04-2012, 08:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
I could not disagree more. Escorts finally complete the picture of Starfleet as a viable military organization and the Federation as a spacefaring civilization. Section 31 helped make sense of how the usually hapless Starfleet and Federation managed to survive so long and Escorts are a ship that was sorely needed as something more suited for war than explorer ships putting on airs.

What If there had been a serious war between the federation and anyone else? Does anyone really see the Galaxy Class being more than a speedbump to one of those giant Romulan Warbirds (D' something, i can never say it or spell it.... sneaky roms!) or much less the armed to the teeth KDF cruisers? What would protect federation colonies from fast BoP raids? Does no one remember the alternate timeline where the Enterprize C did not die defending the Klingon colony?

No, Escorts were needed for the federation and Starfleet to make sense. If nothing else they provide a genuine deterrent as something that an enemy would fear to mess with. And they are NOT glass cannons. Why do people insist on using outdated gaming concepts like that? Just as Cruisers are NOT tanks that can't hurt a fly.

SO many things to respond to in this thread.
The Federation was involved in a lot of wars over the years and no one felt that there was a need of tiny little Gunships that can do nothing but fire it's cannons.

Starfleet Cruisers wheren't helpless or weak, they where battleships with science Laboratories.
(thats why they needed so much more hull volume compared to klingon vessels for example)
At least until TNG, Starfleet Crew and officers where already respceted for their combat capabilities. There was absolutely no need of introducing ships like the defiant, and even less need to make them as dominant as they are in STO.


Only the makers of DS9 thought that they needed something "cool" (or at least something the think of being cool). So they introduced this Millenium Falcon on Steroids, ehm i mean the Defiant.
They also thought that the Federation should be displayed as weak and vulnerable so they could create more tension for their stories in the dominion war.
Dont missunderstand me, i like DS9 very much but i hate what it did to Star Trek as a whole.


I have no idea what a speedbump is, m
aybe you know the galaxy class only from STO but on the shows it was a powerful Battleship that stood toe on toe with the most powerful battleships of the other Alpha/Beta quadrant powers and could only be really weared down by the writers.
Only in STO they are pictured as flying fortresses without any significant Firepower, which is just nonsense. It's phasers strips where the most powerful ever created by Starfleet and since all ships get updates from time to time they should still be extremely powerful. The Ship itself is Big enough to carry even the Biggest Warp Core to produce much more energy to be fed into the Phaser arrays, than small escort could ever do. The only reason to picture the Galaxy class this weak (fireopwer wise) is for game balancing.


My point is that Starfleet shouldn't need escorts in the first place, since their Cruisers should already be strong enough to fight any enemy. The only justification to introduce escorts is that they cost less resources than Cruisers, but they should never be superior in any field.
Outside STO, technically there is no reason a Escort ship should have more power, firepower or stronger shields than a ship 5 times the size. In Star Trek universe they just don't make sense IMO.


Live long and prosper.

-> -> -> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- <- <-
T6 Guardian Class design / A 25th century Ambassador refit

Last edited by yreodred; 09-04-2012 at 09:02 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,750
# 18
09-04-2012, 11:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yreodred View Post
[font=Georgia][color=SandyBrown]The Federation was involved in a lot of wars over the years and no one felt that there was a need of tiny little Gunships that can do nothing but fire it's cannons.
I have to ask what big all out wars the Federation has been on? As far as I know after ST 6 and peace was signed with the Klingon Empire there were no notable wars talked about in the shows? I may be mistaken but I don't think they were involved in any all out shooting wars.

I'll grant you that my view of cruisers in general may be tinted by my own experiences with them in STO. But even if I don't convey it properly I do know the real problem with cruisers in STO is not the ships themselves, but rather the pilots.

Escort pilots HAVE to learn to be at least decent or be useless, cruiser pilots can spend all day flying around a target doing nothing more than autofire and pressing heal after heal and eventually wear it down. I know this is the case for most of STO's playerbase, I can also say it was what I was doing as well. Until I saw a competent escort pilot and realized the problem was with me, not escorts.

Flying a cruiser loaded up with healing boff powers makes it possible for anyone to get thru the PvE content, but also trains you to fly in all the wrong ways. People think escorts are supertanks while dealing insane damage, in reality cruisers can deal significant damage while tanking with ease, AND supporting the other players. Problem is, few cruiser pilots bother to learn, or even realize its them that's the problem. I can honestly say that learning how to fly an escort has made my experience with my newly minted lvl 50 engi much sweeter. I have just enough defenses to tank and survive it all and still have a LOT of boff powers to add to my damage and play with. Sadly most cruiser pilots make unkillable tanks with lots of margin for error and are satisfied with doing almost no damage, and then get upset that escorts can survive without them.... instead of saying "hmmm, how do I get more out of my ship?" and "they have an edge on damage while have it on defenses, how do I make this work for me?".

As far as cannon goes, I always felt Starfleet was an impossible writer's pet, and feel escorts make sense and now it feels more real. I really like it this way.

To keep the topic relevant with the OP's post:

I think you see a lot of cruisers around for two main reasons.

1) Its what you saw in the shows most of the time. That said you'll find that a lot of the subset of fans that prefer DS9 are escort pilots... in Defiants mostly too! Or at least their first escort will likely be a Defiant.

2) Its what the average player defaults to when escorts and sci ships prove difficult to fly. Mind you not every player does this, but a significant number do. I did.

As to why so many Odys.... you got me on that one. Personally I won't fly a ship whose looks I can't stand, and the Ody is to my eyes one incredibly UGLY ship, I especially hate it looks like more of a space whale than any other ship, and especially especially (two especiallies!!) hate the neck. Others may be willing to overlook that and even convince themselves they love it... but I ain't buying it!

Also, it was a surrounded by a lot of events, the special teaser mission, etc, as part of its promotion and release. Heck, it was the "Next Enterprise"! So a lot of people bought it and the 3 pack. So what do you do now? You spent 25 to 50 USD on a ship, do you then buy the Regent? What other cruiser can top the "next enterprise" ? So naturally you see them everywhere.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 384
# 19
09-05-2012, 12:48 AM
Fact is, The Oddy remains the most Tac heavy Boff slot cruiser in the game Fed side.
With Damage Doffs, all you need is the Cammander Eng with EPTW, RSP,EPTS3, ATSIF3.
Leaving you with almost full uptime for EPTx abilties, and up to 6 Tac Boff slots with the Universal slots.

No other cruiser can do that. Period. (Fed Side)

And like the above post said about too many heals. The Oddy can tank everything with just one Commander Engineer Boff.

Making the Oddy, the most DPS you can get outta a cruiser, Be it Broadside gameplay, or Cannon/Turret (Wth Seperation)
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,063
# 20
09-05-2012, 12:59 AM
I have noticed this too.

Some simple facts are these:

1) Some cruisers are VERY well built (I'm lookin' at the Assault Cruisers here) and are able to do most things you throw at them.

2) They do have high survivability so newbies manage to survive longer in them.

3) They have more guns. More guns = more firepower, at least according to most people. The nuances of cannons and weapons power are not exactly immediately obvious. Ditto with their size and hull. These are fairly obvious sources of "more" and often (but not always) someone will think that "more = better."

4) Perhaps the most important, CRUISERS = ENTERPRISES. People on the forums complain about "wanting to be a Kirk." I think most people who jump on STO and want to play starship captain for a few hours /want/ to be Kirk, much as how people who jump on a fantasy MMO probably want to be Link (from Zelda - yes, mixing up series, but work with me here). And they'd rather pretend to be Kirk than tweak the nuances of strange ships they're not very familiar with. I know /I/ want to be a Kirk - wanted to from the start, although I have learned to be a bit better with throwing support in where I can amidst my concerns for survivability and firepower.

5) Following on the previous point, a lot of the ships we see, while familiar to Trek nerds, are unfamiliar to more casual viewers. Science vessels for the most part are small, unfamiliar ships, in some cases very strangely shaped (e.g. the "golf ball"), or they're Voyager, and most people who want to be a Kirk do not want to be a Janeway. Escorts are small, compact, and don't look like Star Trek ships very much, although this is somewhat offset by their massive firepower potential - which, despite many cries for what some feel is the Roddenberry Vision for Star Trek, is generally a major selling point for video games. While a lot of us are Trek-nerds, a lot of players are much more casual Trek fans (mind, many see this as a casual MMO that you can play when you want on a busy schedule without falling too far behind - and see this as a feature). The nuances of the Saber class versus the Akira class versus the Nova class are lost on them - they're just 'that one not-hero ship that showed up for two episodes as a story subject and about five other episodes to act as background extras/cannon fodder.'

6) In the case of the Odyssey, the Ody is the most expensive Fed-side ship when bought in a package, the biggest in both size and crew (the latter by a considerable margin), is the current Enterprise, and has a lot of goodies on board. It definitely gives a leg-up to a lot of people, and while that might not be enough to keep them from being pulverized by players who know what they're doing, they likely FEEL stronger for it - and while they're suboptimal, objectively they may very well be stronger compared to what they were netting. Simply put, most expensive + most goodies + most hull + the Enterprise = win, in terms of who's buying what. Plus, the good Odys aren't fleet ships, yet are considered to be the only fleet-level ships you can just purchase at will. The Ody was a smash hit. There are reasons why that is the case, and these are many of them.

IN SUMMARY - cruisers dominate. The Odyssey (pay) and Assault Cruiser (free) will probably continue to dominate by a considerable margin for the forseeable future, and may very well always dominate for the Enterprise connection alone.

Just my (very long) $0.02.

Last edited by red01999; 09-05-2012 at 01:08 AM.
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