Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,912
# 31
09-05-2012, 04:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by red01999 View Post
This was actually not intended to reflect on the effectiveness of cruisers (if I understand your comment), but rather refers to their numerical advantage, if you want to call it that.
I saw that but the bit I used referenced the number of each sip, I simply used it to represent how the game content doesn't correlate with the player ship ratios.

Quote:
Originally Posted by red01999 View Post
On the subject of cruiser strength, however, I will say this - I have heard someone some time ago refer to playing STO with a cruiser as being on "easy mode." So there are others who think cruisers are too effective.
on the subject of this, I'd like to meet this person and for this person to play my toon and ship post season 6 and say that again... I guarantee if he/she has any form of reason that they won't say that again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by red01999 View Post
I am sorry, however, if I did not comment on your particular post - long day, brain isn't fully engaged, and TBH I think I missed most of the posts, since this is something I've wanted to comment on for a while.
With regards to this, I understand your position and it wasn't you I was looking for a reply from, I was looking for a reply from skyranger as he seemed to be oblivious to the majority of starfleet ships (in the actual star trek universe, not the STO one)
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,063
# 32
09-05-2012, 04:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldbeer72 View Post
Been a fair amount said on cruisers and escorts, but little on science ships, and what little has been said seems to be mostly negative.
I am an ENG captain but fly a Recon Sci, and absolutly love it, Turns on a dime with 2 RCS consoles, all DBB up front and BA, Tric and Cluster transphasic on the rear end,.
Am very aware that I am not going to throwing out high DPS numbers so dont bother trying, its all about setting the enemy up for the "Big Guns", using GW and whatever else will help out in that regard.
Works for me, have made it to wave 6 in "no win" and can usually get the optional in STFs, which i am happy with.
But back to topic, have tried cruisers in the past but they just dont work for me. Can see why they are popular, as mentioned previously, they are, regardless of the many variants, the base representaion to most people of what a Star Trek ship 'should' look like. At the end of the day, if it bears even a passing likeness to NCC-1701, it is pretty much going to sell like hotcakes. Cryptic is aware of this, and caters to the masses accordingly, hence there will always be an over abundance of cruisers ingame compared to the other classes.
It would be helpful, I think, if the Science profession didn't seem to be some strange, scary thing.

Truth be told I'm just starting to learn a bit about it as I try to get my science toon (created seven months ago for the free Odyssey promotion!) up to a double-digit level. But on the outside the Science career seems to be exotic. It has its own obscure set of stats that no one else seems to ever stat into (amid more 'mainstream' stats in the science category such as shields and inertial dampeners).

However, I still myself don't understand it and don't understand what stats I'm supposed to spec into, which has actually given me pause - I'd rather not pop all his respec tokens because I kept screwing up.

Science ships are a bit in that category. Plus, honestly, science ships are likely seen as 'low firepower,' and the shield boosts that they get don't take away from how little hull HP they have. It's true, they are low firepower and they aren't all that well armored, although I do know that Science has some nifty offensive capabilities, and science ships have sensor analysis and target subsystems level 1 built right in. However, they still look like, for the most part, poorly-armored also-ran cruisers that casual players aren't very familiar with, save for the Intrepid class.

Engineers and tactical are easier to grasp. And with a lot of F2P players, who only get one Fed slot, and later one KDF slot, they're probably going to pick a tac or engineer, since with its unique stats, science IS at least a bit more complicated to manage.

What should/can be done about this? I dunno. My two mains are Tac and Eng, and both command cruisers, although the Tac takes out the Def-R and MVAE when I feel like playing the Angel of Death. (Which is, actually, what I named my Def-R after...) And while I'd love to try out a science ship, I don't really want to spend 120K dil or $20-25 plus the cost of a ship slot to get one, especially if it turns out I don't like it. I may do this once I get my science toon up into the admirality, but considering how sporadically I play him, that's a ways off, I'm sure, and it also seems like it takes a LOT longer to get to use some of the really good stuff as a Sci.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,912
# 33
09-05-2012, 05:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by red01999 View Post
It would be helpful, I think, if the Science profession didn't seem to be some strange, scary thing.

Truth be told I'm just starting to learn a bit about it as I try to get my science toon (created seven months ago for the free Odyssey promotion!) up to a double-digit level. But on the outside the Science career seems to be exotic. It has its own obscure set of stats that no one else seems to ever stat into (amid more 'mainstream' stats in the science category such as shields and inertial dampeners).
While regrettably the science shield bonus really isn't that noticeable it is more a compromise between the two other ship classes my science toon is specced much like my engineer in that she has high levels of hull resist/regen and shield skills and to make up for the science ships lack of damage capability i've specced her into the energy weapons side of things and the accuracy aswell. I find that flow capacitors is good for most offensive science skills as is the sensors skill, as regards ground... well... ground is ground is ground at the end of the day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by red01999 View Post
What should/can be done about this? I dunno. My two mains are Tac and Eng, and both command cruisers, although the Tac takes out the Def-R and MVAE when I feel like playing the Angel of Death. (Which is, actually, what I named my Def-R after...) And while I'd love to try out a science ship, I don't really want to spend 120K dil or $20-25 plus the cost of a ship slot to get one, especially if it turns out I don't like it. I may do this once I get my science toon up into the admirality, but considering how sporadically I play him, that's a ways off, I'm sure, and it also seems like it takes a LOT longer to get to use some of the really good stuff as a Sci.
Well I find science to be really nasty when given an escort the sub nuke and sensor scan combined with the tactical BOFF skills can rip ships apart, throw in the photonic fleet and the dampening field as well and there really isn't much that will stand up to it (I recommend MVAE for that tactic as it will benefit most in multi-vectrol assault mode)

If you do decide to go with a science ship prepare for a major team support role and don't expect too much help from your peers (they're too interested in pew pewing) so you have to take care of yourself and them else you get yelled at by the noobs for not pulling your weight if you go one end of the spectrum or the other, so your survival chances will likely be comparable to an escort anyway. I recommend you keep at least 1 count of sci, engi and tac team on you, also keep at least 1 count of HE on you at all times, (all of these can be thrown around with ease by a science captain as you never really do the damage to get engrossed in the combat) other than that keep a few self heals on you and then stack whatever crowd control or offensive skills you want depending upon your solo play style

as for taking forever to get the higher grade stuff, log your sci toon in for every mirror universe event you can (even if that's all you do with them) I got mine to VA in 10 days using mainly mirror events. Hope this helps
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 168
# 34
09-05-2012, 05:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by red01999 View Post
It would be helpful, I think, if the Science profession didn't seem to be some strange, scary thing.

Truth be told I'm just starting to learn a bit about it as I try to get my science toon (created seven months ago for the free Odyssey promotion!) up to a double-digit level. But on the outside the Science career seems to be exotic. It has its own obscure set of stats that no one else seems to ever stat into (amid more 'mainstream' stats in the science category such as shields and inertial dampeners).

However, I still myself don't understand it and don't understand what stats I'm supposed to spec into, which has actually given me pause - I'd rather not pop all his respec tokens because I kept screwing up.

Science ships are a bit in that category. Plus, honestly, science ships are likely seen as 'low firepower,' and the shield boosts that they get don't take away from how little hull HP they have. It's true, they are low firepower and they aren't all that well armored, although I do know that Science has some nifty offensive capabilities, and science ships have sensor analysis and target subsystems level 1 built right in. However, they still look like, for the most part, poorly-armored also-ran cruisers that casual players aren't very familiar with, save for the Intrepid class.

Engineers and tactical are easier to grasp. And with a lot of F2P players, who only get one Fed slot, and later one KDF slot, they're probably going to pick a tac or engineer, since with its unique stats, science IS at least a bit more complicated to manage.

What should/can be done about this? I dunno. My two mains are Tac and Eng, and both command cruisers, although the Tac takes out the Def-R and MVAE when I feel like playing the Angel of Death. (Which is, actually, what I named my Def-R after...) And while I'd love to try out a science ship, I don't really want to spend 120K dil or $20-25 plus the cost of a ship slot to get one, especially if it turns out I don't like it. I may do this once I get my science toon up into the admirality, but considering how sporadically I play him, that's a ways off, I'm sure, and it also seems like it takes a LOT longer to get to use some of the really good stuff as a Sci.
Can't argue with u there, getting my RSV sorted has taken MANY experiments with set-up, so getting them right IS hard, but it is immensly satisfying once you get it right for your particular needs.
Getting them through a fleet action or STF in one piece can be one hell of a challange, but thats what i enjoy, rather than atomising everything in my path in a matter of seconds, i have to work for my loot, and have no problem with doing so, but realise i am a minority in that regard.
But it can be done, recall a 'no win' from a few nights ago....transport was cactus midway through wave 5, and there was only myself and an escort still conscious....and i was the healthier of the two of us...all the cruisers were toast....so there u go.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 197
# 35
09-05-2012, 05:46 AM
Why are there more cruisers?... you have more to choose from in the game and for a typical, casual Trek fan, they know them.... is that a good thing? There are not that many folks that actually played the Starfleet Battles board game. I wish we had more variety for the other classes. I hope we will get many more Fleet ships from the devs as the Starbase content progresses.

I am a Tac Officer that flys escorts for the most part. I have the Defiant (several versions) and the patrol escort.

I also have the Tac Ody and the Mirror Assault. When I am in a serious, play mood, I usually run the Patrol Escort b/c I like the BOFF stations on it better over the Defiant. I wish the Tac Ensign slot on the Defiant was a Universal Station..... but the Quad Cannons and Cloak on the Defiant are still fun, but I often run an armor console in place of the Cloak console depending on mission.

Any who, back to Cruisers, the Tac Ody is not my favorite (I definitely dont like the look), but I do like the utility of it. I cannot afford a freighter right now so I use the Tac Ody for a lot of workhorse tasks like doff farming the colonial doff chains in the nebulas, etc. It is useful to get around since my current build allows me to do Transwarp 25 without the Slipstream engaged. I did Tour The Galaxy event for the first time last night and did fairly well for not knowing what I was doing. The extended Slipstream of the Ody is an obvious help. For the overall utility, the cruiser does a decent job all the way around...kinda what a cruiser in Star Trek is suppose to do. I run a modified Dragon build on my Ody which seems to work well for Fleet missions etc.

But I would like see more ships to balance out the classes.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,757
# 36
09-05-2012, 06:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
...... so we have a problem, escorts can do damage but don't live long enough to do so, cruisers live long enough to not do any damage... and science ships do less than cruisers! So they're completely screwed over...
(PWE Please take notes here!) if this keeps going the way it is the game will become unplayable because no-one will have the lifespan (in case of escorts) or damage (In case of cruisers) or both (in case of science ships) to kill anything.
Here is a theory.

That Escort is meant to dish out damage to the enemies while teamed with the Cruiser whom gives heals, damage support and tanks while the Science Vessel is meant to use Crowd Control, Confusion and DeBuffs plus support damage to befuddle the enemies so as a team the mission can be won.

United they make a better force than divided.
Roy Hatch (stryker) soldier, friend, and good man.
1945-2014
RIP
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 808
# 37
09-05-2012, 11:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Weapons (Same both ends)
Quantum torpedo launcher Mk XII [CrtD] [CrtH] [Borg]
Polarised tetryon Beam array Mk XI
Phased tetryon Beam array Mk XI [Acc] [Dmg]
Tetryon Beam array Mk XII [Acc] [CrtH] [Borg]

Equipment
Deflector: M.A.C.O. Graviton Deflector Array MK XII
Engines: M.A.C.O. Impulse Engines Mk XII
Shields: M.A.C.O. Resilient Shield Array Mk XII

Consoles

Engineering:
Monotanium Alloy Mk XI (Blue quality)
Neutronium Alloy Mk XI (Blue quality)
Neutronium Alloy Mk XI (Blue quality)
Assimilated Module

Science:
Field generator Mk XI (Blue quality)
Field generator Mk XI (Blue quality)

Tactical:
Tetryon pulse generator Mk XI (Blue quality)
Tetryon pulse generator Mk XI (Blue quality)
Tetryon pulse generator Mk XI (Blue quality)

Bridge officers
Tactical (Lt. CMDR): Tactical team I, High Yield Torpedo II, Beam Fire At Will III
Engineering (CMDR): Emergency Power To Weapons I, Reverse Shield Polarity I, Emergency Power To Shields III, Eject Warp Plasma III
Engineering (Lt.): Engineering Team I, Auxiliary Power To Structural Integrity Field I
Engineering (Ensign): Emergency Power To Auxiliary I
Science (Lt.) Science Team I, Jam Targeting Sensors II
I really have to ask, because I've always found it puzzling... Why Tetryon? Statistically, it's probably the most useless energy type in the game. Its proc only affects shields (which is useless on the ground; by the time it procs, they usually don't have any shields left), and the extra shield damage is constant throughout all marks. What if you're fighting an enemy whose shields have already dropped? Or the Crystalline Entity, who doesn't even HAVE shields? Personally, I favor Plasma. It has the same Proc chance as Tet, but it's a hull DoT that scales with Mark. It's useful EVERYWHERE Also, I typically run Energy Distribution Manifolds in Tac, it boosts all Beam damage by the same amount as the Tet consoles of the same Mark and rarity.

Also, judging by the Tactical LtCmdr, I assume you've got the Odyssey. Good choice on putting the Tac there... but I like putting my Jem'Hadar there. Spread 3 is really, REALLY powerful. Actually, you can have MY Odyssey build:
It's got a good harmony of resilience and damage, counters almost everything the Borg uses, and works really well.
As for your set... use MACO if you like, but I find that 3-piece Retro Borg works better as a Tank. Engines + Deflector + Console with the Paratrinic Shield Array - Play "Past Imperfect at VA. Highest shield cap in the game, especially with those Science consoles. I have ONE of those in my slot, and I get 12,977 out of them. You'll prolly get nearly 14k.
CHARACTER GRID (@Lord-Ice):
___ |___ _ Fed ____| ____ _KDF __ ____| Rom
Tac_|_Thomas Hale_| __ __Illusion _____| Silence (K)
Eng | ___Antilles _ _| _ Mirror Rygobeth__| N'Vek (F)
Sci _| __ Rygobeth _| _Lukor Son of Q'Tar | Devala (F)
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,912
# 38
09-05-2012, 01:29 PM
"Also, judging by the Tactical LtCmdr, I assume you've got the Odyssey."

Actually I'm using my excelsior (hence the lacking Lt. Tac as found on the oddy), as for the use of tetryon I have been using it for a while and I find (having used phaser on the same ship and layout) the tetryon burns through shields faster whether it procs or not that and it looks pretty firing 6 beams of shield stripping death, however I may be persuadable to change it.

I would be interested to see your oddy build and see how I can adapt it to my purposes
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 808
# 39
09-05-2012, 06:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
"Also, judging by the Tactical LtCmdr, I assume you've got the Odyssey."

Actually I'm using my excelsior (hence the lacking Lt. Tac as found on the oddy), as for the use of tetryon I have been using it for a while and I find (having used phaser on the same ship and layout) the tetryon burns through shields faster whether it procs or not that and it looks pretty firing 6 beams of shield stripping death, however I may be persuadable to change it.

I would be interested to see your oddy build and see how I can adapt it to my purposes
Click the link (it's the blue sentence). It'll give you my BOff layout and skill spec (Fed Engineer). The associated image for item build can be found here. All weapons have [Borg] mods.
CHARACTER GRID (@Lord-Ice):
___ |___ _ Fed ____| ____ _KDF __ ____| Rom
Tac_|_Thomas Hale_| __ __Illusion _____| Silence (K)
Eng | ___Antilles _ _| _ Mirror Rygobeth__| N'Vek (F)
Sci _| __ Rygobeth _| _Lukor Son of Q'Tar | Devala (F)
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 853
# 40
09-05-2012, 06:47 PM
Cruisers are so numerous in STO because they're generally the main hero ship class of Star Trek and the most popular. This is similarly why so many KDF players fly Birds of Prey.

Fed cruisers however are probably the worst ships in the game outside of PvP. Their focus is tanking, but when it comes to PvE that's ridiculously easy for any class of ship to do. Heck, shield wise there's only about 1000 shield points difference between a cruiser and an escort (if it has three shield generators, it'll actually have MORE shields then an Assault Cruiser/Refit).

The majority of STO's PvE content is damage focused and for that escorts are best. In fact flying an escort in elite difficulty space combat is like playing the game on super easy. I actually got so bored of it I picked up a cruiser to give me some actual challenge, since everything died so fast.

We aren't talking about skilled fancy flying here or tac buffs, we're talking about elite NPC's dying to unbuffed DHC fire. Now I'll admit, it's different in STFs... There you use BUFFED DHC fire.

So basically, why fly a cruiser when you don't need half it's tanking abilities when you can casually fly an escort that has just enough tanking abilities and can zip around and use DHC's.
Previously Alendiak
Daizen - Lvl 50 Engineer - Fleet Avenger
Selia - Lvl 50 Tactical - Fleet Avenger
Toval - Lvl 50 Tactical - Fleet Mogai

Last edited by orondis; 09-05-2012 at 06:55 PM.
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