Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,251
# 11
09-09-2012, 02:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Changes to Science captain & Bridge Officer abilities-


Bridge Officer:

1. Tachyon Beam: No longer a drain ability. Tachyon Beam will disable shield balancing while it is active on target (counter: science team) and inflicts shield harmonics disruption which causes a disturbance in the ship's maneuverability (-turn rate).
Argh not liking the counter with Science Team, would rather transfer shield strength. I think a lot of players who know the game don't use science team, as it shares a cool down with engineering and tactical team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptapollo View Post
Tacs alrdy have it in "tactical initiative" reduces all Boffs skills cool downs by half -> more dps
Actually I'm pretty sure it's only Tactical Bridge Officer abilities that receive the short cool down. I think it should be the same for a science but with only science abilities receiving the short cool down.

But in whole I agree the Science needs a decent buff on it's abilities
Quote:
Originally Posted by macronius View Post
Cryptic is sloppy. Breaking News at 11. This is what happens when there is no outline or plan and you just make up **** as you go along.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shredder75 View Post
We can tell our great grandchildren, "In my day, our cloaks were so sensitive that even dialogue broke them and we couldn't change our clothes!"
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 53
# 12
09-09-2012, 04:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by majesticmsfc View Post
Argh not liking the counter with Science Team, would rather transfer shield strength. I think a lot of players who know the game don't use science team, as it shares a cool down with engineering and tactical team.
i think thats the whole point, no more cruiser and escorts hard countering u'r every move with skills that have faster cycles and dn't conflict with antyhing else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by majesticmsfc View Post
Actually I'm pretty sure it's only Tactical Bridge Officer abilities that receive the short cool down. I think it should be the same for a science but with only science abilities receiving the short cool down.
that makes sense, but photonic officer is a Boff skill not captain skill like initiative, any1 could slot it and skyfaller proposed a energy % increase on it. if it would be like a increase in science skills that would totaly work.

also about the 900% increase from I to 3 ehm a lil much (for ex PSW has ~3k dmg at 1, at 3 it would be ~27k?, to much) but a 5x would be ok (15k every 40 secs on PSW would work, thats lower then a HY2 at evry 30secs)?

as for removing dmg entirely. Sky was trying to avoid saying: "First no more sci skill buffs with AP" so he avoided direct dmg on any skill (GW, PSW...).
but i guess 1 or 2 should still dmg u'r opponent but u could just mare how hard they hit rely only on aux and skill lvl.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,228
# 13
09-09-2012, 04:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Tachyon Beam: No longer a drain ability. Tachyon Beam will disable shield balancing while it is active on target (counter: science team) and inflicts shield harmonics disruption which causes a disturbance in the ship's maneuverability (-turn rate).
Shield disruption and subsystem targeting beam weapon ability. How will this stack with existing SST abilities? How are shields remotely related to turn rate btw?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Feedback Pulse: No longer 50% shield 50% hull. Reflected damage strikes target for full damage onto either shield or hull, whichever is in its way.
FBP Pulse is already quiet capable. This would quiet frankly be simply over the top + BO? Also, why should a offensive SCI ability get the bonus defense of threat generation as well?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Scramble Sensors: Sensor stat increases the damage required for the scramble to break by 5x current amount. (really now it is silly, you scramble someone/something and in 1 shot the scramble breaks..even at III level ability).
Why? This will obviously lead to abuse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Tractor Beam: Will now pull in target ship to 2km distance. Higher tier ability (tractor 2, 3) will cause increasing hull damage if the target ship has engines running at more than 1/3rd impulse.

Associated change: System will check between user and target ship mass stat. up to = mass no change to above, but if the user is lighter in mass than its target the hull damage will be inflicted on user not on target.
I see what you did there. Escorts are the smallest ships (And I'm not interested in shuttles!) in the game currently, so...

I wonder if the 2km range has anything to do with the effective range of all cruiser/ sci ships abilities?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Charged Particle Burst: Removed as a Drain Ability. CPB will no longer damage ('drain') shields. Instead it will be a cone ability fired from 360 degrees (aka = to turrets firing cannon scatter volley) that will debuff stealth, debuff stealthsight and debuff defense rating by 'tagging' the ships in the cone with particles that allow targeting systems to track them better (duration: 15 second tag)
So like a second SNB, only better?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Photonic Officer: Changed to provide a 'universal' buff to all systems. As part of the main computer, the Photonic Officer improves timers, all stats and all power levels by 2%, 5% and 10% (I, II and III). Duration of buff: 1 minute. Re-use timer : 2 minutes.
Why would anyone not use this..... seriously?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Photonic Shockwave: No longer inflicts damage. Photonic Shockwave changed to a 90 degree forward arc 'wave' that knocks target back (5km max range), disabling their engines for 5 to 10 seconds (depending on subspace decompiler skill) and blinding their sensors for 10 seconds (equivalent to jam sensor but on a short timer).
So you want a AMS console + VM LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Tractor Beam Repulsors: Versions I, II and III will push the same number of targets as their tier. The greater the tier the farther the push and the faster it will repel. Aka, Repulsor I = pushes only 1 target (the one player has locked) from 5km to 8km. II = 2 targets from 5km out to 10km. III = 3 targets from 5km out to 12km.
Again, everyone would use this as it would continually push other side out of range of effective weapon fire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Viral Matrix: Remains as is with the exception that higher tier viral matrix may only be countered by equal or higher tier science teams. If target is hit by viral matrix 3 then using science team 1 is not going to cleanse it.
How is that possible for TAC flying escorts Ehr. SCI.III?

Last edited by drkfrontiers; 09-09-2012 at 04:50 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,228
# 14
09-09-2012, 04:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by boootz View Post
Why is it you propose to take away ALL our damage skills? You would mangle our class worse than cryptic already has.

I would do thusly.

Photonic Shockwave 3 900% stronger than Photonic Shockwave 1 with 100% chance of subsystem disable on hull contact. And the area of effect Omni Directional with a range of 10k.

Also I would make its damage type exotic and not buffed by Attack Pattern Alpha.

I would make Gravity well 3 have 900% stronger pull, area of effect and damage than Gravity Well 1 and its damage type exotic, not buffed by Attack Pattern Alpha.

Tykens 3 900% stronger drain, damage and Area Of Effect than Tykens 1. Damage type Exotic not buffed by APA.

Energy leach 3 900% stronger than Energy leach 1.

tachyon 3 900% stronger than tachyon 1 not buffed by APA.

Viral Matrix 3 last 900% longer than Viral Matrix 1 with 20% chance of the subsystem disable effect jumping to another system on application of engineering team per level.

I actually like your idea for Charged Particle Burst, Photonic Officer and the sensor skills. Have a cookie. I think they should scale 900% at 3 from 1 though.

We have 3 fore and aft weapons, no skills that really boost damage and our ships tend to not have many tac consoles. The neutering of our skills is intolerable, especially since the cause of our emasculation is the OVER POWERED ability Attack Pattern Alpha. To propose to willfully consign our class to nothing but healing and trickery in a game where the ability to put out DPS is the single most important aspect of your character build in 95% of all situations is REDICULOUS.
You clearly don't PvP do you?
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 53
# 15
09-09-2012, 05:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by drkfrontiers View Post
Shield disruption and subsystem targeting beam weapon ability. How will this stack with existing SST abilities? How are shields remotely related to turn rate btw?
FBP Pulse is already quiet capable. This would quiet frankly be simply over the top + BO? Also, why should a offensive SCI ability get the bonus defense of threat generation as well?
Why? This will obviously lead to abuse.
I see what you did there. Escorts are the smallest ships (And I'm not interested in shuttles!) in the game currently, so...
I wonder if the 2km range has anything to do with the effective range of all cruiser/ sci ships abilities?
So like a second SNB, only better?
Why would anyone not use this..... seriously?
So you want a AMS console + VM LOL
Again, everyone would use this as it would continually push other side out of range of effective weapon fire.
How is that possible for TAC flying escorts Ehr. SCI.III?
tac fan boy here with nothing productive to add.

lets recap for u:

Tachyon beam affects turn rate and no more shield distributing (manual or tac team). it stacks just fine with shield sst which only reduces the shield regen u get every 6 secs

Feedback no boost proposed just that it doesn't split 50/50 anymore. it hits what it hits.

Scramble sensors abused? 1 min cd and ~10-15 secs up time. how do u figure? because it wn't drop after 2 secs as it does now cuz some1 is shooting at u?

Tractor beam instead of stopping beam as in how it is now. Well shocker, it would actually Tractor u... not to mention counters in dampeners, high engine power, evasive maneuvers, polarized hull and AP:O.

Charged particle burst: resit debuff + stealth debuff. what does SNB (turn rate debuff and energy recharge debuff) have to do with burst?


Photonic shockwave and officer u might have read the other post be4 blabing about em...

Repulser are doing now what u'r saying. The proposal is to increase effectiveness while reducing targets affected.

Viral matrix: right now the counter is any battery, emergency power to X, auxiliary to X. holly crap no wonder no1 uses it anymore. if ST would be the only counter any1 can slot ST1/2 to counter VM1/2. if a player devotes his commander slot for VM3 why would u be able to neutralize it with an ensign slot skill that also buffs u at the same time and cycles faster??
or mby u'r one of those ppl that think sci is the OP class that can kill u in 10 secs?

Last edited by cptapollo; 09-09-2012 at 05:26 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,228
# 16
09-09-2012, 06:01 AM
Just because I do enjoy the merry-go round with the same person...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptapollo View Post
Tachyon beam affects turn rate and no more shield distributing (manual or tac team). it stacks just fine with shield sst which only reduces the shield regen u get every 6 secs
Tachyon Beam drains an enemy starship's shields. Period. Strap in turn rate modifier and you have something altogether different. I going to assume you don't know what you are talking about with "It stacks just fine..." Considering this a hypothetical discussion, I would love to know what you are basing you assumption that this abilities subsystem targeting buff will not adversively affect inherit sci SST or BOFF ability? There is no benchmark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
In PVP it is ideal for ships to counteract tactical team. Each tier of Tachyon beam gets progressively better so most non-science ships with access only to Tachyon Beam I the duration of the tachyon will be lower. Aka tac team lasts 10 seconds. Tachyon 1 = 4 secs shield balance disruption/turn rate, Tachyon 2 = 7 seconds, Tachyon 3 = 10 seconds.
Also, the OP has himself stated he wants a hard counter to TAC Team, so in essence this is much more:

= shield debuff + turn rate debuff + ability debuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptapollo View Post
Feedback no boost proposed just that it doesn't split 50/50 anymore. it hits what it hits.
So going from 50% to 100% is not a boost. Riiiight. And when used in conjnction wuth Beam Overload, you don't see a potentian OP ability evolving.

And you failed to mention this. Thread generation...

It is a Tactical class skill, granting passive Damage Resistance bonus, to help compensate for the additional incoming damage.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptapollo View Post
Scramble sensors abused? 1 min cd and ~10-15 secs up time. how do u figure? because it wn't drop after 2 secs as it does now cuz some1 is shooting at u?
You weren't around during beta were you? If you were ... check the archives threads. There are hundreds.

Quoting a base line 2 secs, for someone not skilled in sensors, or even running any Sensor consoles, is invalid.

Also not sure what "wn't drop after 2 secs as it does now cuz some1 is shooting at u" has to do with Scramble Sensors. Perhaps you are thinking of Jam Sensors there?

Science Team clears Scramble Sensors, but I'm sure using your VM methodology, you would propose that only equal tier SCI Teams clear that too..

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptapollo View Post
Tractor beam instead of stopping beam as in how it is now. Well shocker, it would actually Tractor u... not to mention counters in dampeners, high engine power, evasive maneuvers, polarized hull and AP:O.
You must be confused. Tractor beam is not a stopping beam. Also half of the resistances are bugged.

Also convienient how you left out the main issue I have with this viz. hull damage based on ship size; again a "double-bonus" for a SCI skill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptapollo View Post
Charged particle burst: resit debuff + stealth debuff. what does SNB (turn rate debuff and energy recharge debuff) have to do with burst?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Charged Particle Burst: Removed as a Drain Ability. CPB will no longer damage ('drain') shields. Instead it will be a cone ability fired from 360 degrees (aka = to turrets firing cannon scatter volley) that will debuff stealth, debuff stealthsight and debuff defense rating by 'tagging' the ships in the cone with particles that allow targeting systems to track them better (duration: 15 second tag)
Please represent what I quoted properly.

SNB - "Subnucleonic Beam stuns the target's bridge crew, removing any currently applied buffs and slowing the recharge time of their abilities and weapon systems"

How is it not the same?

PS. This alone tells me everything "SNB (turn rate debuff and energy recharge debuff).."

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptapollo View Post
Photonic shockwave and officer u might have read the other post be4 blabing about em...
Antimatter Spread
PBAoE Placate, Confuse, Debuff Perception

5k range

-4,850 Perception for 8 sec
+1 Confuse for 8 sec
Placate for 8 sec
Disables Area Map for 8 sec

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Photonic Shockwave: No longer inflicts damage. Photonic Shockwave changed to a 90 degree forward arc 'wave' that knocks target back (5km max range), disabling their engines for 5 to 10 seconds (depending on subspace decompiler skill) and blinding their sensors for 10 seconds (equivalent to jam sensor but on a short timer).
Again ... Gosh. I don't need to read the other posts again, to know what you are suggestion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptapollo View Post
Viral matrix: right now the counter is any battery, emergency power to X, auxiliary to X. holly crap no wonder no1 uses it anymore. is ST would be the only counter any1 can slot ST1/2 to counter VM1/2. if a player devotes his commander slot for VM3 why would u be able to neutralize it with an ensign slot skill that also buffs u at the same time and cycles faster??
Every good sci build uses it. Reduce the efficiency of the counter. What was being suggested was an ability that had no counter.

Last edited by drkfrontiers; 09-09-2012 at 08:08 AM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 53
# 17
09-09-2012, 09:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by drkfrontiers View Post
Tachyon Beam drains an enemy starship's shields. Period. Strap in turn rate modifier and you have something altogether different. I going to assume you don't know what you are talking about with "It stacks just fine..." Considering this a hypothetical discussion, I would love to know what you are basing you assumption that this abilities subsystem targeting buff will not adversively affect inherit sci SST or BOFF ability? There is no benchmark.

Also, the OP has himself stated he wants a hard counter to TAC Team, so in essence this is much more:
= shield debuff + turn rate debuff + ability debuff
first i was stating only the the proposed effects and they are not in adition to the current one. there would be no more shield drain.
Also what alien logic are u using for it messing with SST? one would not alow u to move shield hit points from one facing to another the other one would just drain u'r power level. where's the "inherited effect"? It's not buffing anything.
and gee wow, it counters a skill for 10 secs at lv3. There sure aren't dozens of examples of that in the game right? most of em used by... who?... that's right tacs! heavens forbid sci should have a counter to a tac skill.


Quote:
Originally Posted by drkfrontiers View Post
So going from 50% to 100% is not a boost. Riiiight. And when used in conjnction wuth Beam Overload, you don't see a potentian OP ability evolving.
what is wrong with u'r rationalisation process? the dmg does not split period. it either hits the shield if it's up, or the hull? what's the problem? there is no boost!

Quote:
Originally Posted by drkfrontiers View Post
And you failed to mention this. Thread generation...
It is a Tactical class skill, granting passive Damage Resistance bonus, to help compensate for the additional incoming damage.....
that is not something i would personally add to it, given the fact it also raises the potential of agroing nearby enemies. more resist for more incoming dmg... a tradeoff in PvE but for PvP, yes that part should not be added.


Quote:
Originally Posted by drkfrontiers View Post
You weren't around during beta were you? If you were ... check the archives threads. There are hundreds.
Quoting a base line 2 secs, for someone not skilled in sensors, or even running any Sensor consoles, is invalid.
Science Team clears Scramble Sensors, but I'm sure using your VM methodology, you would propose that only equal tier SCI Teams clear that too..
Disrupt sensores III: Scrambles sensors for 5 sec (base), with high aux u can get it past 10
Science team 1: Removes science debuffs for 5 sec

ow well my bad it's not 2 it's somewhere about 5 such a big difference! for a commander slot skill that's very efficient right? when compared to CRF3?

Quote:
Originally Posted by drkfrontiers View Post
Also not sure what "wn't drop after 2 secs as it does now cuz some1 is shooting at u" has to do with Scramble Sensors. Perhaps you are thinking of Jam Sensors there?
yes we were, our mistake.... and for jam still the only dmg that should count should be the ones who used jam.


Quote:
Originally Posted by drkfrontiers View Post
You must be confused. Tractor beam is not a stopping beam. Also half of the resistances are bugged.
yes resistance are, tho the 2 counters work just fine. And tractor implies pulling. the current version states "slows the target ship". Can u understand the difference? i dn't rly mind it either way.
also what's ur problem with getting close? isn't that the best way for u to do dmg as well?

Quote:
Originally Posted by drkfrontiers View Post
Also convienient how you left out the main issue I have with this viz. hull damage based on ship size; again a "double-bonus" for a SCI skill.
please dn't talk to me about double bonuses while u'r running in an escort. i know all about them 2.

ship size shouldn't be an issue yes, though range should. the closer u get pulled, no matter what ship u'r in, the higher the dmg should be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drkfrontiers View Post
Please represent what I quoted properly.
SNB - "Subnucleonic Beam stuns the target's bridge crew, removing any currently applied buffs and slowing the recharge time of their abilities and weapon systems"
How is it not the same?
Yes and what does that have to do with burst ("will debuff stealth, debuff stealthsight and debuff defense rating")??? how is it the same thing in ur mind? one reduces stealth and resistance, the other increases cool downs and strips u'r buffs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by drkfrontiers View Post
Again ... Gosh. I don't need to read the other posts again, to know what you are suggestion.
i meant more then just the first post smart ass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drkfrontiers View Post
Every good sci build uses it. Reduce the efficiency of the counter. What was being suggested was an ability that had no counter.
as opposed to the current counter: ET? that can cycle every 15 secs? that removes even VM3? Hell VM3's effect doesn't last 15 secs, not gonna mention it's cool down. yes every good sci build should definitely use it...
and no1 suggested an ability with no counter, the counter would be sci team.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 18
09-09-2012, 10:39 AM
I'm glad to see this is fomenting a constructive debate.

I'll reply to some comments made:


Quote:
Originally Posted by majesticmsfc View Post
Argh not liking the counter with Science Team, would rather transfer shield strength. I think a lot of players who know the game don't use science team, as it shares a cool down with engineering and tactical team.
Transfer shield strength is not a debuff cleanser. Sci team is. If we use transfer shield strength to remove a debuff then it would make sci team nearly obsolete. Remember transfer shield strength only removes boarding parties when paired with a doff ability.

..which could be a nifty addition in the future. a doff that gives trnsf shield strength a chance to counter tachyon beam's shield disruption (but not turn rate) debuff.


Quote:
Actually I'm pretty sure it's only Tactical Bridge Officer abilities that receive the short cool down. I think it should be the same for a science but with only science abilities receiving the short cool down.

But in whole I agree the Science needs a decent buff on it's abilities
I agree. However the photonic officer is supposed to reduce timers on all abilities not just science. Timelord's suggestion has merit but it cannot be done through boff abilities. Think about it: if three more boff abilities were added (EmgSciHolo,EmgTacHolo,EmgOpsHolo) we end up with messing with the template variety.

Instead, again, DOFFS could fill in that gap. Photonic Specialist duty officers could be added to make the photonic officer boost one type of skills rather than the others (aka, Photonic Specialist Science Doff would 'switch off' the generic 2% boost to all and replace it with a 4% boost (to use ensign level photonic officer ability as an example) only to science timers, stats and aux power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drkfrontiers View Post
Shield disruption and subsystem targeting beam weapon ability. How will this stack with existing SST abilities? How are shields remotely related to turn rate btw?
They dont stack. SST lowers power level of subsystem and has chance to knock out the system for a short time. Tachyon beam would only disrupts the shield balancing from tac team and affect ship turn rate.

The turn rate debuff is already in the game through a duty officer and through a myriad of other abilities so it is not an issue. As a turn rate debuff it can be cleansed by a myriad of engineering, tactical and science abilities.

Shields are a bubble around the ship. The ship flies pushing the bubble. If the bubble has trouble slipping through space it will slow the ship down in an analogy to friction.

Quote:
FBP Pulse is already quiet capable. This would quiet frankly be simply over the top + BO? Also, why should a offensive SCI ability get the bonus defense of threat generation as well?
There is zero damage increase to the current feedback pulse damage. The only difference is it now will only strike whatever the pulse hits first..shield or hull for the full amount. Beam overload has nothing to do with this.

In PVP now escorts literally kill themselves when firing on a ship with feedback pulse on...because the pulse bypasses the shield and puts 50% of the damage directly to hull. Its hilarious to watch jemhadar ships implode at 100% shields.

For PVP its not very balanced. In PVE oth, it causes a problem vs NPC's which have paper thin shields but gargantuan hulls. Boss NPC's has massive shields and ludicrous hull HP. Feedback pulse in PVE hardly deals damage unless the shields are down.

So, it make it functional and balanced in PVP and PVE simple remove the damage split. PVP makes ships not implode while at full shields and PVE allows the feedback player to damage the target shields for full feedback damage and then hull for full damage without the whole thing being diluted into useless damage.

Quote:
-scramble sensors-
Why? This will obviously lead to abuse.
Someone else already replied to this. FYI an area effect damage attack from a player hits for nearly 2500 dmg minimum (torp spread, cannon spread, fire at will) and the dmg amount the current scramble sensor 'breaks', even at max countermeasure skill, is around that damage range.

Which makes the ability useless beyond the first tier. Pre-F2P the ability was abused because the damage needed to break was insanely high.. and it was cut down to the laughable amount it is now. A simple increase of 5x dmg makes it able to remain active long enough for the affected NPC ship to at least fire once at another NPC..not just get scrambled and lose the scramble in 0.005 seconds.

In PVP the scramble sensor is resisted by sensor or countermeasure skill ( i forget which) and can be cleansed with sci team. In any case a ship under attack in pvp receives the 'break' damage even at 5x in a second or two.

Quote:
I see what you did there. Escorts are the smallest ships (And I'm not interested in shuttles!) in the game currently, so...

I wonder if the 2km range has anything to do with the effective range of all cruiser/ sci ships abilities?
Yes it does actually. Escorts tractoring escorts = OK. Escorts tractoring an Atrox = Not OK. Escorts have plenty of tractor immunity abilities at their disposal. AP Omega, Polarize Hull, etc. It has a range of 5km only. If you get tractored in by a sci ship or cruiser in an escort and you failed to include a counter to this then your escort will simply die.

Also FYI, only a few science abilities have the 5km range limit and none of those aside from this proposed tractor deals actual damage.


Quote:
-charged particle burst-
So like a second SNB, only better?
SNB is completely different. Do at least make an effort to learn what SNB does before posting.

Quote:
Why would anyone not use this..... seriously?
That is the current situation with photonic officer. The proposed change is much more versatile since it boosts stats, power levels and timers equally. non-science ships that generally dont have much use for sci abilities in the lt and ensign slots can make use of it.


Quote:
-photonic shockwave-
So you want a AMS console + VM LOL
Again, the proposed change is nothing remotely close to AMS and VM. Do at least make an effort to learn what AMS and VM do before posting.


Quote:
Again, everyone would use this as it would continually push other side out of range of effective weapon fire.
Answered by an above poster perfectly.

Quote:
-viral matrix-
How is that possible for TAC flying escorts Ehr. SCI.III?
A lower science team would cut down the time the disable effect lasts or the number of systems that go down. It just wont cleanse the effect fully when hit by VM-III.



Quote:
Originally Posted by drkfrontiers View Post
Tachyon Beam drains an enemy starship's shields. Period. Strap in turn rate modifier and you have something altogether different. I going to assume you don't know what you are talking about with "It stacks just fine..." Considering this a hypothetical discussion, I would love to know what you are basing you assumption that this abilities subsystem targeting buff will not adversively affect inherit sci SST or BOFF ability? There is no benchmark.



Also, the OP has himself stated he wants a hard counter to TAC Team, so in essence this is much more:

= shield debuff + turn rate debuff + ability debuff
It is not a shield debuff. It is a turn rate + shield balance counter. Tachyon beam as proposed does not debuff shield hitpoints or resist.


Quote:
So going from 50% to 100% is not a boost. Riiiight. And when used in conjnction wuth Beam Overload, you don't see a potentian OP ability evolving.
Not really. Beam Overload now, if it strips the shield off the target in one hit (or if you use shield subsystem target 3) will simply allow the feedback to hit the hull.

Thing is, people seem to fail to understan that right NOW the feedback pulse splits the damage 50/50 ONLY when there is a shield present were the feedback pulse hits. Aka if the target's rear shield is fully down and the rest are up and the feedback pulse NOW hits the rear hull the damage it inflicts is 100% not 50%. The modifier that triggers the split damage is shields.

Quote:
And you failed to mention this. Thread generation...

It is a Tactical class skill, granting passive Damage Resistance bonus, to help compensate for the additional incoming damage.....
Threat generation is directly tied to the threat control skill. Feedback pulse is often used by tank cruisers to aid in their retaining of aggro ... but it apparently does not generate hate (probably because the damage didnt come from the ship's weapons which SEEMS to be the only threat generating ability there is).

My tank carrier with threat control 9 and using full weapon power, full energy specialization/targeting loses aggro from bosses when escorts pull high damage spike hits and it does not get it back until the escort dies. I literally cannot increase the dps since its already at max possible with 5 beams and 1 torp firing all I can at it. Thus I cannot in some ocassions hold the hate from exceptional escorts.

Feedback pulse, with threat generation tied to my threat control skill would provide that.


Quote:
Also not sure what "wn't drop after 2 secs as it does now cuz some1 is shooting at u" has to do with Scramble Sensors. Perhaps you are thinking of Jam Sensors there?

Science Team clears Scramble Sensors, but I'm sure using your VM methodology, you would propose that only equal tier SCI Teams clear that too..
Scramble sensors now acts exactly like jam sensors in that incoming X amount of damage from any source removes the effect. In my proposal jam sensors would break only if the damage came from the person jamming (since its literally 1 ship jamming another so his one ship is not targetable whereas scramble universally messes up sensors so any incoming damage should be valid to break it).

Of course the sci team should affect these abilities equally. A Jam 3 that the player tried to cleanse with science team 1 would only be reduced in duration or reduce the damage it needs to break. Sci team 2 would significantly lower it and sci 3 would completely clean it.


Quote:
You must be confused. Tractor beam is not a stopping beam. Also half of the resistances are bugged.

Also convienient how you left out the main issue I have with this viz. hull damage based on ship size; again a "double-bonus" for a SCI skill.
Dunno about you but if my escort tractors a tac cube.. it STOPS turning AND moving in any direction. Players that get tractored, because they have some resists, still move forward or back and have real big turn rate debuff.

The resistances are not bugged. Tractor beam is bugged. It puts out too strong a movement debuff that the resists cannot counter.

That is where the issue comes in. If they reduce it for PVP stat vs stat then the ability becomes way overpowered in PVE. If its adapted for PVE it becomes meh in PVP. Cryptic seems to have tried to compensate with an in-between which makes the PVP tractor resists not work so well even when maxed out.

Linking ship mass to tractor hull damage and removing the resist vs tractor pull issue makes the ability functional for both PVE and PVP. PVP a player KNOWS it is unwise to tractor a cruiser with an escort... but he can do it if he decided the hull damage dot is worth it.

But I understand your concern with hull damage. It is not set in stone.. how about a big power drain to AUX and Engines if the target is larger than you?

(I forgot to add that tractor beam would be a toggle so you could turn it off. original post edited!)

I also don't see how it is a double bonus for sci. The only ships they could tractor safely are other sci ships and escorts. Tractoring a cruiser or carrier would hurt sci ship.

Cruisers and carriers get the best benefit from tractor beams ..and they should. They turn like bricks and getting inside 5km range of them should be *quite* dangerous.

Quote:
-SNB vs proposed particle burst-
Every good sci build uses it. Reduce the efficiency of the counter. What was being suggested was an ability that had no counter.
It does have a counter. SNB's debuffs is stealth, stealthsight and defense rating. It is a science ability hence science team cleanses the effect (scaled per tier). Defense rating is countered in multiple ways since the stat CAN be increased by attack patterns, speed settings and equipment.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,228
# 19
09-09-2012, 10:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cptapollo View Post
first i was stating only the the proposed effects and they are not in adition to the current one. there would be no more shield drain.
Fair enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptapollo View Post
Also what alien logic are u using for it messing with SST? one would not alow u to move shield hit points from one facing to another the other one would just drain u'r power level. where's the "inherited effect"? It's not buffing anything.
I am talking about the mechanics of the game.

So under the new system I have Tach.Beam I - III, Beam Target Shields/ Engines/ etc, and the inherit Science Sub System Targeting abilities & Sensor Analysis.

So you would have a SCI ability, yes "buffing" a tactical/ sci Sub System Targeting ability, because they are not on a shared CD but are fulfilling a dual role of subsystem targeting. Or am I missing something.

---

Old system:

Tach. Beam > Shields

Sub System Targeting > Shields.

= 2x shields modifiers (for simplicity sake)

---

New System:

Tach. Beam > Shields + Turn Rate + Shield "Disruption"

Sub System Targeting > Shields.

= 2x shield modifiers + turn rate modifier + ability modifier = BUFF

---


Also, TAC Teams are one of the ONLY defensive abilities an escort has. You would see that nullified?

PS. I play all classes so stop impling that I am some diehard TAC fan. My main is a SCI, "QENG"

What will the effects of this be on simple shield regen, e.g. SCI, TSS, ES, EptS?

What are the counters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptapollo View Post
and gee wow, it counters a skill for 10 secs at lv3. There sure aren't dozens of examples of that in the game right? most of em used by... who?... that's right tacs! heavens forbid sci should have a counter to a tac skill.
You do its called SNB, VM, Sensor Scan, and the list goes on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptapollo View Post
what is wrong with u'r rationalisation process? the dmg does not split period. it either hits the shield if it's up, or the hull? what's the problem? there is no boost!
Clearly you need help with this.

Definition. Boost: To raise or lift by pushing up from behind or below.

50% to 100% irrespective of where, or in what that increase is applied; efficacy; DPS; DPH; whatever you want to call it.

It increases the power of the ability. Having 100% against one of these (shields, hulls) and possibly against 3 ships for that matter, will affect PvP. Have you any idea what experienced players could do in arena with that output?


Quote:
Originally Posted by cptapollo View Post
ow well my bad it's not 2 it's somewhere about 5 such a big difference! for a commander slot skill that's very efficient right? when compared to CRF3?
Whats your point? How long should it be? And fully specced for it, its +-10 sec. How long should an opposing side slaughter one another while you kick back and wait for it to cooldown?

Please tell me you're not complaining about CRF3 now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptapollo View Post
yes we were, our mistake.... and for jam still the only dmg that should count should be the ones who used jam.
I worry about people that speak in the third person about themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptapollo View Post
yes resistance are, tho the 2 counters work just fine. And tractor implies pulling. the current version states "slows the target ship". Can u understand the difference? i dn't rly mind it either way.
also what's ur problem with getting close? isn't that the best way for u to do dmg as well?
A PvPer wouldn't even ask such a question. PvP is about maneuverability. Speed and timing.

What you are suggesting is worse than the current problem. It drags one backwards, or worse sideways into line of fire making it impossible to escape.

Then once you are stuck at 2 km mark I can think of countless cruiser, science tricks to seal one's fate further.
Again, this is a "double-bonus" attempt, because you are asking for TB to have the pull of gravity well and the damage to hull, but only if you are a cruiser, or science ship do you benefit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cptapollo View Post
please dn't talk to me about double bonuses while u'r running in an escort. i know all about them 2.
What double bonuses do individual TAC abilities have? Please don't tell me you are referring the the Attack Patterns. Science abilities have far greater multiple affects in their abilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptapollo View Post
ship size shouldn't be an issue yes, though range should. the closer u get pulled, no matter what ship u'r in, the higher the dmg should be.
Use GW III.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptapollo View Post
Yes and what does that have to do with burst ("will debuff stealth, debuff stealthsight and debuff defense rating")??? how is it the same thing in ur mind? one reduces stealth and resistance, the other increases cool downs and strips u'r buffs.
What part of the red do you not understand?

Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller
Charged Particle Burst: Removed as a Drain Ability. CPB will no longer damage ('drain') shields. Instead it will be a cone ability fired from 360 degrees (aka = to turrets firing cannon scatter volley) that will debuff stealth, debuff stealthsight and debuff defense rating by 'tagging' the ships in the cone with particles that allow targeting systems to track them better (duration: 15 second tag)

It is another form of SNB, it principle is precisely the same, slightly different. If you can't see that, then I can't help you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptapollo View Post
i meant more then just the first post smart ass.
Name calling now are we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptapollo View Post
as opposed to the current counter: ET? that can cycle every 15 secs? that removes even VM3? Hell VM3's effect doesn't last 15 secs, not gonna mention it's cool down. yes every good sci build should definitely use it...
and no1 suggested an ability with no counter, the counter would be sci team.
And as I said reduce the efficiency of the counter, but not the players ability to counter. Escorts and ever some cruisers do not have SCI III to counter VM I.

Last edited by drkfrontiers; 09-09-2012 at 11:23 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 544
# 20
09-09-2012, 10:57 AM
Feedback Pulse shouldn't do any damage. What it should do is effect the weapon power output levels of the vessel(s) being affected by it. The stronger the energy weapon, the bigger the drop in weapon power of the attacking vessel.

Limit the active ability per tier, but not the debuff effect time. This promotes balance in the skill as you won't be able to have two sets of the skill with one always active.

T1 = 5 second
T2 = 10 second
T3 = 15 second

Not only does this give the Science Vessel more survivability, but takes away the attack run punch of a charging escort.
You know Cryptic has Jumped the Proverbial Shark when they introduced Tractor Pulling to Star Trek Online!

Last edited by gstamo01; 09-09-2012 at 11:23 AM.
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