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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,160
# 21
09-10-2012, 07:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daan2006 View Post
they can explained till the cow come home dont make it cannon
I know, that's what I said! STO IS NOT CANON period. It fits in with some canon and not others. If you wish to be a purist about it and anything non-canon offends you then you shouldn't play STO lol.
If you can see past that point then you have to take a more broad brush approach to the whole canon argument, at least everything in STO has to be run by CBS for approval, that's why the JHAS is not a C Store ship, CBS didn't want thousands of them all over the place as there is no conceivable story that would fit in with any version of canon. Call it artistic licence, licensed by the studios, it's close but not pure, take it or leave it, it's all we have now.

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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 236
# 22
09-10-2012, 07:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecosmic1 View Post
My experience is that Trek has always had 2 types of canon:

Hard Canon is what's in the movies and TV series.

Soft Canon is what's in the novels, comics, and other sources.
The problem with that logic is it means everything is canon(either hard or soft). That kind of defeats the entire purpose of having canon in the first place. I think the whole "soft canon" thing is just to make people who really like any given novel/comic/toy feel better. But if we're being honest with ourselves, something is either canon or its not.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 825
# 23
09-10-2012, 07:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eldarion79 View Post
According to the official rules, only thing that is canon is what is shown on screen. There is one exception, the new Star Trek game coming out late this year or next year, has been deemed as canon. Not even the encyclopedia or the TNG tech manuals or STO is considered canon.
I would say that books and such can be classified as soft canon. With the lack of an actual movie or TV series presenting and advancing a plot, books would fill that role. UNTIL a TV series or movie comes out that contradicts it, in which case the contradiction in the show or film becomes canon...

Of course, it should be noted that Star Trek canon is not very sturdy, as the shows and films have demonstrated over the years, where what is established in one film or episode is tossed out by a subsequent film or episode. And where what is established in one Trek series is tossed out by a subsequent series.

So that begs the question: IS there really a such thing as Star Trek canon, or is it merely a collection of elements from the series that fans latch onto and embrace as fact?

Just for clarification here, the genre Star Trek belongs to is called science fiction... That means it is not real. Which means there is really nothing factual about it.

And you do know what the general rule for canon in a fictional context is, don't you? Here it is:

If it gets in the way of the story you are trying to tell now, and there is no way to effectively bend it to fit the story you are trying to tell now, disregard it and just tell the story you are trying to tell now...

Even J. R. R. Tolkien had to go back and rewrite a chapter of The Hobbit because the original version did not fit the context of Lord of the Rings.

And how many times have we seen television series writers do this?

The only fictional story that matters is the one you are telling NOW.
I personally want a Star Trek game that is actually Star Trek. On a qualitative level that could be a lot of different things for a lot of different people. But on a quantitative level, if the developers were to watch star trek and make the game like what they see, then at least it will be a shot in the right direction, as far as I am concerned.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,160
# 24
09-10-2012, 07:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thetruthurts View Post
The problem with that logic is it means everything is canon(either hard or soft). That kind of defeats the entire purpose of having canon in the first place.
This is correct from a purist's viewpoint but it kinda leaves you with no current ST experience doesn't it. We just have to accept it until some day another series or movie is made in the prime universe not JJ's bastardised verion.

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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,103
# 25
09-10-2012, 07:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattjohnsonva View Post
I know, that's what I said! STO IS NOT CANON period. It fits in with some canon and not others. If you wish to be a purist about it and anything non-canon offends you then you shouldn't play STO lol.
If you can see past that point then you have to take a more broad brush approach to the whole canon argument, at least everything in STO has to be run by CBS for approval, that's why the JHAS is not a C Store ship, CBS didn't want thousands of them all over the place as there is no conceivable story that would fit in with any version of canon. Call it artistic licence, licensed by the studios, it's close but not pure, take it or leave it, it's all we have now.
as one who has played every ST game out there im not against playing a non-canon game but any one who thinks this game is close to cannon im sorry to be blunt but is wrong
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,160
# 26
09-10-2012, 07:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirsitsalot View Post
I would say that books and such can be classified as soft canon. With the lack of an actual movie or TV series presenting and advancing a plot, books would fill that role. UNTIL a TV series or movie comes out that contradicts it, in which case the contradiction in the show or film becomes canon...

Of course, it should be noted that Star Trek canon is not very sturdy, as the shows and films have demonstrated over the years, where what is established in one film or episode is tossed out by a subsequent film or episode. And where what is established in one Trek series is tossed out by a subsequent series.

So that begs the question: IS there really a such thing as Star Trek canon, or is it merely a collection of elements from the series that fans latch onto and embrace as fact?

Just for clarification here, the genre Star Trek belongs to is called science fiction... That means it is not real. Which means there is really nothing factual about it.

And you do know what the general rule for canon in a fictional context is, don't you? Here it is:

If it gets in the way of the story you are trying to tell now, and there is no way to effectively bend it to fit the story you are trying to tell now, disregard it and just tell the story you are trying to tell now...

Even J. R. R. Tolkien had to go back and rewrite a chapter of The Hobbit because the original version did not fit the context of Lord of the Rings.

And how many times have we seen television series writers do this?

The only fictional story that matters is the one you are telling NOW.
Nail on the head time. Indeed, I am writing part 2 of a foundry mission, but in order for the mission I want to write to make sense I have to go back an alter elements of the original part 1. The difference in this case is that the original will be lost never to be seen again.

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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,296
# 27
09-10-2012, 07:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eldarion79 View Post
According to the official rules, only thing that is canon is what is shown on screen. There is one exception, the new Star Trek game coming out late this year or next year, has been deemed as canon. Not even the encyclopedia or the TNG tech manuals or STO is considered canon.
There are no exceptions, the only thing canon are whats shown on television or movie screens. The original tech manuals and blueprints have been dismissed as non-canon for decades even tho they came from the same art department as the original models shown on television.

If Gene Roddenberry himself and CBS made a ST game it would not be canon (unless it was shown on a trek series someone was playing it).
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,201
# 28
09-10-2012, 07:31 AM
..........

Last edited by oldkirkfan; 09-20-2012 at 01:54 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 236
# 29
09-10-2012, 07:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattjohnsonva View Post
This is correct from a purist's viewpoint but it kinda leaves you with no current ST experience doesn't it. We just have to accept it until some day another series or movie is made in the prime universe not JJ's bastardised verion.
JJ-Trek is canon, therefore there is a current canon Trek experience. You dont have to like it, but whether you like something or not is irrelevant to whether it is canon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldkirkfan View Post
Which proves absolutely nothing. That entire article can be summed up as "canon is open to interpretation", which this discussion already proves.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,508
# 30
09-10-2012, 07:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thetruthurts View Post
The problem with that logic is it means everything is canon(either hard or soft). That kind of defeats the entire purpose of having canon in the first place. I think the whole "soft canon" thing is just to make people who really like any given novel/comic/toy feel better. But if we're being honest with ourselves, something is either canon or its not.
The point is that CBS can decide what is and isn't canon from any of the source material. They consider the movies and TV shows canon, but they could decide that Shatner's novels are canon and make a movie about them if they desired. The fact that CBS doesn't consider something to be a real part of their canon today doesn't mean it won't be tomorrow.

STO is its own Soft Canon source, just as a novel or comic book is, but that doesn't mean CBS couldn't use STO's entire history and setting as a foundation for a new TV series. At that point it becomes Hard Canon: something officially added to the Trek universe that others can build upon.
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