Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,086
*Warning, this is a wall 'o text

What makes +Dmg bad, even in PvE
1) +Dmg mod does not have its bonus damage improved by captain skill, whereas critical damage is.
2) +Dmg mod does not have its bonus damage improved by consoles, whereas critical damage is.
3) +Dmg mod does not have its bonus damage improved by most abilities, whereas critical damage is.

The Toon
Has maxed Weapons Training and Energy Weapons, 6 in Energy Specialization. Also, borg console is used in these maths.

The Gear (All Dual Beam Banks) no consoles 123 weapon power
Mk 12 Fleet [Dmg]x3, [Acc] 1108.7 DPV
Mk 12 STF [Borg], [Acc], [CritH] 1044.7 DPV
Mk 11 STF [Borg], [Acc], [CritH] 1020 DPV

Base Crit Chance = 7.62%, Base Severity = 80.4

Average DPV /w Crits
Mk 12 Fleet = 1176.7
Mk 12 STF = 1125.5
Mk 11 STF = 1094.5

Adding Blue Mk 11 consoles adds 84 damage to all 3 guns. First will be with 2, second 4.
Mk 12 Fleet = 1355 / 1533.2
Mk 12 STF = 1306.4 / 1487.4
Mk 11 STF = 1279.8 / 1460.8

Now getting crazy, 5 of the above consoles, 9 ranks in Specialization, and a tiny bit of accuracy overflow (1.5 chance, 6% severity)

Mk 12 Fleet = 1658.6
Mk 12 STF = 1615.6
Mk 11 STF = 1588.3

Conclusion: While in the end when adding on boff abilities the STF guns might end up ahead, but for general PvE the advanced fleet weapons are slightly better. I'll test with abilities another time.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 2
09-09-2012, 05:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Conclusion: While in the end when adding on boff abilities the STF guns might end up ahead, but for general PvE the advanced fleet weapons are slightly better.
I'd be surprised if they weren't.

The [Borg] weapons only have a single useful modifier for "general PvE" for increasing overall damage.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 3
09-09-2012, 06:28 PM
Technically borg weapons are only ranked as "Rare" for anything NOT against the Borg. They should only be ranked as "Rare" anyway, with the Borg proc being as a natural ability instead of tricking people into thinking that they actually have something that's as good as if not better than standard "Very Rare" equipment, since the only reason that STF weapons rank as "Very Rare" is because they have the anti-borg proc, and only have two other enhancements for general PVE usage.

Dunno if that's on topic though XD
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,329
# 4
09-10-2012, 01:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Technically borg weapons are only ranked as "Rare" for anything NOT against the Borg. They should only be ranked as "Rare" anyway, with the Borg proc being as a natural ability instead of tricking people into thinking that they actually have something that's as good as if not better than standard "Very Rare" equipment, since the only reason that STF weapons rank as "Very Rare" is because they have the anti-borg proc, and only have two other enhancements for general PVE usage.

Dunno if that's on topic though XD
However, the purple nature DOES give them an innate damage boost.

Yes, the fleet weapons can be eeeeeever so slightly more powerful but they are not worth all that extra Dilithium. If you got Mark XII Purple [ACC]X3 weapons they would make both look pathetic. So if you really want to max things the Fleet Weapons are nothing special. Even Purple MK XI [ACC]X3 are superior.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,086
# 5
09-10-2012, 04:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hasukurobi View Post
However, the purple nature DOES give them an innate damage boost.

Yes, the fleet weapons can be eeeeeever so slightly more powerful but they are not worth all that extra Dilithium. If you got Mark XII Purple [ACC]X3 weapons they would make both look pathetic. So if you really want to max things the Fleet Weapons are nothing special. Even Purple MK XI [ACC]X3 are superior.
Even in PvE?

Nevermind I'll answer my own question. Now in any case if you are missing the target its obvious that ACC is the best bet, but when it is providing accuracy overflow for the bonus crit/severity is it? Adding a ACC mod would increase your overflow to adding an additional 1.25% crit chance and 5% severity each. They would also have the same exact base damage with 3 mods as the borg ones so that makes the math alot easier for me.

Base (no consoles same toon) DPV
Mk 12 [Acc] x3: 1157
Mk 11 [Acc] x3: 1129

Oddly enough fleet is barely beating 'em both. Lets try consoles (2 then 4)
Mk 12 [Acc] x3: 1343 / 1529
Mk 11 [Acc] x3: 1316 / 1502

Nope, even in this case the ultra rare quality lets the fleet ones win out. And the really messed up thing, I forgot to use the [Acc] property of the fleet weapons in the math AND gave the acc more overflow that it has in reality giving the [acc] x3 a 3.75 crit chance and 15% severity lead when it should have only been about 2% and 8%. In the end though if you miss even once in an encounter the [acc] x3 would likely have been the better option.

Last edited by bareel; 09-11-2012 at 05:15 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 185
# 6
09-10-2012, 08:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
*Warning, this is a wall 'o text

What makes +Dmg bad, even in PvE
1) +Dmg mod does not have its bonus damage improved by captain skill, whereas critical damage is.
2) +Dmg mod does not have its bonus damage improved by consoles, whereas critical damage is.
3) +Dmg mod does not have its bonus damage improved by most abilities, whereas critical damage is.

The Toon
Has maxed Weapons Training and Energy Weapons, 6 in Energy Specialization. Also, borg console is used in these maths.

The Gear (All Dual Beam Banks) no consoles 123 weapon power
Mk 12 Fleet [Dmg]x3, [Acc] 1108.7 DPV
Mk 12 STF [Borg], [Acc], [CritH] 1044.7 DPV
Mk 11 STF [Borg], [Acc], [CritH] 1020 DPV

Base Crit Chance = 7.62%, Base Severity = 80.4

Average DPV /w Crits
Mk 12 Fleet = 1176.7
Mk 12 STF = 1125.5
Mk 11 STF = 1094.5

Adding Blue Mk 11 consoles adds 84 damage to all 3 guns. First will be with 2, second 4.
Mk 12 Fleet = 1355 / 1533.2
Mk 12 STF = 1306.4 / 1487.4
Mk 11 STF = 1279.8 / 1460.8

Now getting crazy, 5 of the above consoles, 9 ranks in Specialization, and a tiny bit of accuracy overflow (1.5 chance, 6% severity)

Mk 12 Fleet = 1658.6
Mk 12 STF = 1615.6
Mk 11 STF = 1588.3

Conclusion: While in the end when adding on boff abilities the STF guns might end up ahead, but for general PvE the advanced fleet weapons are slightly better. I'll test with abilities another time.
Those figures are not correct, you need to post the base damage for the weapons un equipped other wise your passive ability's and other skills change the damage.

For example the base damage for all those weapons are in the high 200's but soon as you equip them they jump to around about the figures you have up there, my quads have base stats of 287.6 or something but soon as I equip them they jump to 1500 odd so to work out the the differences correctly you need to use the un equipped stats.

Also the Borg weapons only give a bonus to fighting against Borg in pve, they are utterly useless in pvp unless you like loosing.

The fleet weapons are easier to get than the Borg MK XII well if you have Engineer Tier 2 on your Fleet Starbase, they cost a few fleet marks and 10k dilithium each and 10k is quite cheap just over a day to get that or with the 8k limit or not so if your gold given you have the full 10k limit and the fleet marks well you should have them already by the time you hit Engineer tier 2.

Where as the Borg weapons, how many elites do you have to do to get 1 MK XII drop, and its a random thing is not guaranteed you will get the prototype chip or what ever its called.

My fleet doesn't currently have the Engineer tier 2 but we are on its door but I was invited to have a sticky on another fleet Starbase that did have them now I can't rem so if I get it wrong please correct me but there where some dual cannons in their with a base damage of 284.6 now as I mentioned above my quad cannons are around 287.6.

I certainly wouldn't be dismissing the Fleet weapons only to be "just" better than the Borg stuff they completely own them in a big way especially for pvp.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,329
# 7
09-10-2012, 09:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ariseabove View Post
Also the Borg weapons only give a bonus to fighting against Borg in pve, they are utterly useless in pvp unless you like loosing.

The [Borg] Mod is only useful against the Borg but the fact that they are all MK XII Purple [ACC] [CRH] makes them anything but "utterly useless" in PvP. They are not the "Best" but they are not "utterly useless" either.


I, for one, get those salvages quite frequently but yes they are random but you are forgetting all the costs involved with provisioning and getting the base structures to begin with which is a bad thing to do.


With any weapon the bleed over damage from ACC is wonderful icing on the cake and while you only miss some of the time in PvE even those misses = 0 Damage every time they happen. For PvP high accuracy is so badly needed it is not even worth discussing as ANYONE who knows ANYTHING about proper PvP can tell you.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 318
# 8
09-11-2012, 01:16 AM
Acc can be basically dumped if you have a very CC based build. I have an excelsior with wp3 and Theta and a subspace jump. that really lets me put a stop on someones ship if you watch their cooldowns. When someone is siting mostly still and your captain has an acc + perk you do not miss, in those cases the fleet weapons are absolutely destructive, but so are 2 crit% and 1 crit+ weapons. Fleet are about equal to non optimal pvp weapons in such case.
So that basically leaves them as PvE weapons in my opinion where I have had a decent amount of success with them.

If your fighting a bug with double omegas and 2 hazard emitters, then well go Acc3 or leave the match.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 346
# 9
09-11-2012, 07:24 AM
1. Can we know which formulae you used?
Getting "these are my final numbers" isn't very good for those of us that like to check for ourselves.

2. Where is the info on Acc bleed into Crit?
The quantification, that is; that the phenomenon happens is undeniable.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,173
# 10
09-11-2012, 09:50 AM
I sense some inaccurate numbers here.. Also, any wep with a CritD or CritH would smoke a [DMG] modifier in real-world usage. There's a reason the stacked the most useless modifier on those weapons...

Also, to all the peepz squirting over "[ACC]X3 is the bestorz!" lol seriously - in PvP, it is nice but a single [CritH] smokes the spillover from 3 ACC.

"But it doesn't matter if you can't hit them!!!11!!!" - Yeah, whatever - the amount of times you might miss because of having, say, [Acc]x2 over [Acc]x3 is minimal. In PvE, it's not really a big deal.


Back on-topic, I do believe that he [DMG] modifier needs a buff to make it viable again.
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