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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,105
# 21
09-11-2012, 09:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trhrangerxml View Post
I always loved how good the relationship between Kirk and his missing father was (Romulan, no matter what universe they will always kill Kirk's dad) and then the JJ-verse just screws everything up.
Because Angst sells apparently.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,146
# 22
09-12-2012, 05:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hevach View Post
I love Dukat too, just for obviously different reasons. He's one of the best villains in Star Trek, because of what a pure and simple monster he was and how impossible it was for anyone to see him as such. Even Kira came around to his way of thinking no matter how many times she regretted it. Every positive step he took ended up being a way to play his enemies against each other and leave them all cleaning up the mess while he takes home the prize.

He even kept fooling the viewers - and that's hard to do as a recurring villain, other series eventually had to put a worse villain behind theirs and make the old villain an ally just to keep things going. Dukat did that himself. It's not until Waltz that we see he never had that shred of decency to begin with. That all along, those around him - Sisko, Bajor, the Dominion, even Ziyal - were just playthings, and only he's ever mattered in the least.

He used his kids as tools with Sisko a few times, but they were just that - tools. A lever he knew would always work on a caring father. One that caring fathers don't use on each other lightly. And he's use it very lightly, once he even managed to make Sisko apologize for the time lost on a situation that Dukat himself had created.


Dukat had me fooled. I still believe he genuinely regrets his decisions in the Occupation, he did try to be fair. Yes, he was manipulative, yes, he lied and played people against each other. But he did have that little bit of regret, that small saving grace that made him likeable (the producers of DS9 even said they deliberately put this facet of the character in to make you think he's not a complete evil person before they pull the evil stuff). But in Waltz, he came to realise that no one sees him as anyhting but a monster. No one likes him, and with the loss of Ziyal (whom I believe he did truly love, she was not just a puppet), he came to see that everyone sees him as a monster. So he should stop seeking forgiveness and embrace the darkness within him. From Waltz onwards, everyone became a pawn to him, he didn't care about anyone or anything.


Honestly, I went off Dukat slightly after Waltz. Still loved the character, but given the choice, I find his pre Waltz persona to be much more interesting.
*******************************************

A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,656
# 23
09-12-2012, 07:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by grylak View Post
Honestly, I went off Dukat slightly after Waltz. Still loved the character, but given the choice, I find his pre Waltz persona to be much more interesting.
Supposedly the original plan was for him to die or be left there in that cave with his voices. And it probably would have been for the best, it finally laid six seasons of manipulation and ambiguity bare and destroyed him in every way except death. The only thing fitting about what he did from there was that he'd finally become the helpless tool in somebody else's plot.

Genuine love doesn't mean Ziyal wasn't a tool to him. I mean, yes, he obviously loved her - he couldn't kill her and couldn't even bring himself to send her away. He used her against Kira, he used her against Sisko before that. I don't doubt he genuinely loved his other children, but he never hesitated to use them or the general Cardassian sentiments about family either. It was just something that came so naturally to him that he only begun to see it himself when Ziyal was killed, even though she was killed by his own standing orders regarding resistance or betrayal.

But as for finally embracing his monster, I don't think that's the case. It's more like the moment Nixon said, "When the president does it, it's not illegal." It wasn't a new idea in his head, it was there all along, and he believed it, at least until he heard it in his own words. Hearing himself say it had a clear effect, but actually saying it came naturally if reluctantly.

I mean, before he finally admitted that, he had his victim complex speech, which might show that shred of good, except he was playing with a club still wet with the blood of the disabled man he'd just beaten with it. The disconnect required to say that with a straight face is mind boggling.

Last edited by hevach; 09-12-2012 at 07:30 AM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 82
# 24
09-12-2012, 07:51 AM
And Tuvok? It's not like he expected to fling to the Delta Quad with four kids behind.
Vulcan Science Officer -- Captain of the I.F.D. Gallifrey [Tholian Recluse]
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 106
# 25
09-12-2012, 08:41 AM
Fathers in trek;

start with Tuvok; he is a typical Vulcan, but from the small impressions he gave out to Tom Paris, Neelix and Janeway as well the other bits and pieces, i think he genuinely loved his kids the best he can and they also enjoyed his company just as much. *Good*

Kirk: I get the sense that Kirk never really cared too much for his son, he seemed a bit pushy around him and sometimes distant, but there obviously was some sort of love there. *Bad*

Picard: he tended to keep everyone at arms length at all times, but some people he likes to have around, Deanna Troi, Riker and Guinen and sometimes Beverly Crusher. When he learned about his son in danger from Bok, i got the strong impression between the both of them that they are like oil and water, dont mix at all. *Bad*

Sisko: Despite loosing his wife to the borg, the scar healed and disappeared thanks to his son and his life on the station. Sisko loved his son and sometimes objected but more often then not, Ben gave Jake the room he needed and adapted around Nog so there was not any animosity developing. With Cassidy later on, the bond grew stronger although jake sometimes objected himself to some things, like helping his granddad in the kitchen or trying to impress a bajoran girl over going with Ben on a trip. *Good*

O'Brien: A little stern and a little rough around the edges, but ideally placed considering hes in a chaotic environment all the time on DS9, but he would protect and love his family even if it means he dies to protect them. *Good*

Dukat: Perhaps the most interesting character, on the surface he cares enough to give everyone want they want, under this is disgust, rage and pride at his own achievements and what he can gain. Sometimes he drops this facade for Ziyal but more often then not both of them clash, as Ziyal is just confused about her direction in life, Dukat tries to take advantage for his own ends, but usually ends up further in trouble then before. *Bad*

Worf: Clueless parent with no concept of what he is doing, when it comes to his life and private situations, he often has Alexander as far away as possible, like a liability or an anchor worf does not want. but right at the end with the wedding on DS9 things finally get patched up, but it's along way from proper father and son. *Bad*

Sarek: Both Spock and Sarek i get the impression that they hated each other as much as possible, where sarek tries to give Spock logic, experience of life and insight, Spock never had much interest for Vulcan logic in his life until much later on in his life before he abandoned it to the romulan underground. Both Spock and Sarek never spoke for years, not even during Sarek's death. *Bad*

Rom: The most unusual ferengi you can find, highly impressionable so it rubs off on Nog most of the time, at first both Rom and Nog just tolerated each other before the incoming dominion war changed things and after his successful strike. Rom had alot more time for his son after quitting quark's bar and both of them quickly adapted to more human ways of doing things, both also grew a stronger bond and confidence, an example would be Nog serving as a starfleet officer and not afraid of duties and assignments, Rom drinking root beer, and having a wife who is the direct opposite of what ferengi laws stated. *Good*
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,146
# 26
09-12-2012, 08:52 AM
Hmmm, I see your point about the love and still using them as a tool.


So you think Dukat believed his own lie when he said he regretted his actions and tried to keep everything in order? And when he said it out loud, he realised that it was a lie. That sounds plausible, and actually more in tune with the character.


Part of me wishes they had left him in the cave.
*******************************************

A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 106
# 27
09-12-2012, 09:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by grylak View Post
Hmmm, I see your point about the love and still using them as a tool.


So you think Dukat believed his own lie when he said he regretted his actions and tried to keep everything in order? And when he said it out loud, he realised that it was a lie. That sounds plausible, and actually more in tune with the character.


Part of me wishes they had left him in the cave.
that is a very plausible answer. Dukat when he broke after Ziyal's death, although he did care that much, but then used it as an excuse to find the pah'wraiths, so again getting himself into more trouble. He stopped the wormhole and collapsed it, it then cut off supplies and reinforcements from the gamma quadrant for the dominion, the very people he used to get the artifacts to stop ben sisko and achieve his own ends which stalemated the war. in the end his Daughters death was just an excuse.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,656
# 28
09-12-2012, 09:41 AM
Basically, yeah. Waltz is where we learn more about the occupation than anywhere else. Dukat did do a lot of "good" there - but it was all things that ultimately increased the long term benefit Cardassia could wring from the planet if the occupation hadn't ended. And what evil he did he blamed on Bajor, because they dared question the right of the superior to rule the inferior. Finally, pushed on that point, he told Sisko that it was all a waste - he and Cardassia would be better off if he'd killed every last one of them - Kira, Ziyal, every trace of Bajor gone forever. It was only right.

I think the character we saw all the way through was always this guy. He wore a lot of faces, but he slipped between them effortlessly and usually ended up falling back to who he was in Emissary when he didn't want something from somebody. I mean, I know this is supposed to be about fathers, but he wasn't just a bad father, he was the kind of person who couldn't be a good father. Probably the best thing he did for his children was not being there for them when they needed him - hopefully they could grow to resent him enough to see him for what he is and not seek to follow his path.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 106
# 29
09-12-2012, 01:36 PM
it was all about his own ambitions, and how he hated those around him because it drove him insane, possibly jealous with rage more then anything. Most cardassian military political opponents were like this, but then a few of them actually cared more then their own ambitions, like their families. All Dukat saw was the opportunity to gain notoriety so he could lead cardassia for himself, but those around him knew all too well what he is like. Even Garak gave insights about this man to Bashir from time to time, usually along the lines that Dukat was canny but highly arrogant, perhaps as far as sarcasm and a self loathing that he lost the chance to achieve even more success and failed to do so. if Ziyal knew this side of him sooner, she may have never gone back to him.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,035
# 30
09-13-2012, 05:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
Even looking back at TOS, Kirk seems to be the only one to have a good relationship with his father that was spelled out and the J.J.-verse altered that.
The JJ-verse alters NOTHING. The JJ-verse is as much a parallel reality as the Mirror universe we all apparantly love so much that DS9 has at least one crossover episode per year and ENTERPRISE used two episodes from ONLY the perspective of the Mirror characters to not only explain the origin of the Terran Empire, but to also tie up a major loose end from TOS, as in where the Constitution-class Defiant disappeared to.

But to stay on track with your thread, I agree with you. Star Trek has almost been anti-family in terms of portraying any sort of real commitment to relationships with either a spouse or with children. So DS9 was refreshing to see the family element play out.
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