Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,354
# 11
09-12-2012, 04:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by husanakx View Post
Sure there is a new lock box and likely a new andorian escort in it... but really they have been quite cause its the end of the summer and likey been rolling people out on vacation for the past 3-4 weeks.
bang on the mark!
aka NazHuggyBear2

"No, there is no real problem with P2W in STO. Obviously, if you fight against someone with an equal level of skill in the game, better equipment will give you an edge. But usually, it is the skill level that determines the outcome, not the P2W." - Sprinkles
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 172
# 12
09-13-2012, 09:10 AM
I dislike most forms of CC so I dont care much. Thats just me though.

Edit: Yeah, I understand its purpose though. I just have bad memories of what SCI use to be in pvp. 3 or 4 man sci/sci with one or two tac/escort.
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Future Capt Gecko II Hitlers take on PvP

Last edited by criminius; 09-13-2012 at 09:15 AM.
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,322
# 13
09-13-2012, 09:30 AM
Alright, I'll list out a couple things we've been discussing. You're welcome to offer feedback.

DISCLAIMER: These are discussions ONLY at this point. No testing, even internally, has yet been undertaken.

1) Increase the benefit the Aux Levels give to Offensive Science Abilities.

This would, effectively, increase the maximum performance of most Sci abilities. The thought here is that since Science ships have an innate Aux bonus, they would benefit from this change to a larger proportion. It may also become necessary to scale these benefits differently so that 60-75 Aux Power becomes 100% ability effectiveness, instead of 50... but maybe not.

2) Increase the tactical value of Science Consoles.

We've discussed a couple different options here:

** a) Make all Science consoles dual-stat, so that they increase both offense and defense Sci skills. (e.g., Power Insulators console now also increases Flow Capacitors, etc.)

** b) Add a new set of stats to all Science Consoles. Examples include: +Cooldown Reductions (for Sci only) or Improved Sensor Analysis (which might encourage Sci ships to not universally use Sci console slots as "dump" slots for Cstore consoles).

3) Reduce and/or eliminate many (or even all) "Global" cooldowns.

This would allow for better combo effects when using certain abilities in conjunction with one another. For example, it is currently impossible to use Tyken's Rift and Energy Siphon at the same time, even though using them both in tandem could be seen as an ideal tactical choice - they affect the same enemy stats, they use the same captain skills & consoles, etc.

4) Introduce diminishing returns on Damage Boost abilities.

Part of the issue here is not just Science's underperformance, but also Tac's overperformance. We've talked about potentially finding a way to apply harsher diminishing returns on Damage Buffs as a result. We don't like this option as much, since it would upset many players and have a tangible impact on PvE. But it's still been discussed.

4b) If we ever did the above, we might also end up putting diminishing returns on Hull Heals, so that Spike Healing became less of an issue. In essence, any time your Hull is healed, you'd become temporarily resistant to additional healing. The more heal abilities you use in rapid succession, the less effective each would be. But again, this is not seen as an ideal option because of how many players it would impact negatively.

5) And lastly, we've discussed just doing a great big "improvement" pass on every Science ability, one-by-one. Each one would receive an individual review with the express purpose of making them more effective for both PvP and Group PvE (STFs, Fleet Events, etc). This is likely what should end up happening - at least over the short term, to address some stand-out single-power issues - but it's among the most time-consuming options of the things we've discussed, so finding time in our schedule to focus on it is a difficult proposition.

This is not the complete list of ideas we've floated, but some of the others are a too far-fetched (in terms of technical requirements) for me to feel comfortable talking about them publicly.



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Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Systems Design
"Play smart!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
Kurland here...
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 846
# 14
09-13-2012, 09:42 AM
1: This could help things a little bit.

2. Actually I've kind of felt for a while that sci consoles need this exact thing. You shouldn't be going "hey I'll just load up on more Field generators here" instead of any and anything else. If you don't mind me suggesting I would also very sincerely recommending you move the field gen back to being a 1 per ship item, and restore it to +35 percent capacity gain. This will allow Sci ships to be able to field more sci consoles, comfortably. Especially if you combine this with #1.

3. Sci skills shouldn't have shared CDs. I'll agree with that completely. The good sci skills each have incredibly high opp costs, vs healing.

4. Dear god do not do this. The last thing you need to do is kick Escorts in the junk, given how ludicrously easy it is to overcome their damage. And tac boosted sci, is only seen as "OP" because Debuff CC right now is at a very low point in STO due to insane resistances to the sci skills, and a handful of other sci abilities (like grav well) being completely useless in pvp. Back when tacs could boost the sci skills the first go around due to the sheer strength of sci sci, and things like CPB, it was completely un appealing for a tac to be in a sci ship. (as it is right now honestly Sci Sci is still the Game Winner in pvp. People are just pissed because they don't see a gazillion damage by their names and feel inadequate. )

5. This one should have gone without saying after I made all of those videos for you guys.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 24
# 15
09-13-2012, 09:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
Alright, I'll list out a couple things we've been discussing. You're welcome to offer feedback.

[
3) Reduce and/or eliminate many (or even all) "Global" cooldowns.

This would allow for better combo effects when using certain abilities in conjunction with one another. For example, it is currently impossible to use Tyken's Rift and Energy Siphon at the same time, even though using them both in tandem could be seen as an ideal tactical choice - they affect the same enemy stats, they use the same captain skills & consoles, etc.


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I am very supportive of this, with one extra caveat: When you reduce the cooldowns of the science abilities, how about adding an Aux Power reduction as well, similar to how Beam Overload works? It has the benefit of making Science ships more effective (with the general cooldown reduction), but it reduces the OP of quick chains of abilities.

It occurs to me that most tactical skills have an innate weapon power reduction (from the weapons themselves), but science has none of these things.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 97
# 16
09-13-2012, 09:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
Alright, I'll list out a couple things we've been discussing. You're welcome to offer feedback.

trim


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Well, thank you for the update, I really appreciate it.
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 118
# 17
09-13-2012, 10:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
Alright, I'll list out a couple things we've been discussing. You're welcome to offer feedback.
Thank you very much, I really appreciate this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
1) Increase the benefit the Aux Levels give to Offensive Science Abilities.
This would be a good move, I approve it.
If you decide to do it, there are two powers that need to be tuned according to the new aux bonus, specifically:
- Photonic Shockwave
- Tractor Beam Repulsor

PSW does little damage and the damage output is not tied to aux level atm.
TBR has repulsion effect tied to auxiliary level but damage output is independent from power levels, so actually it works better with zero aux power (because this way you can keep your enemy within 5km tbr range)

Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
** a) Make all Science consoles dual-stat, so that they increase both offense and defense Sci skills. (e.g., Power Insulators console now also increases Flow Capacitors, etc.)
I don't like this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
** b) Add a new set of stats to all Science Consoles. Examples include: +Cooldown Reductions (for Sci only) or Improved Sensor Analysis (which might encourage Sci ships to not universally use Sci console slots as "dump" slots for Cstore consoles).
I like this one, very nice idea!

Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
3) Reduce and/or eliminate many (or even all) "Global" cooldowns.
I like this one too, but only if you fix photonic officer ability making it work as a straight cooldown reduction like the doff one.
If you dont, this would give science ships with ltc eng slot an unfair advantage over pure science ships (aux2bat + 3 technicians doff would result in a fire everything-recharge everything strategy that is not available to pure science ships because photonic officer works differently.


Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
4) Introduce diminishing returns on Damage Boost abilities.
No, damage boosts are fine, just remove tac damage boosts effect on science powers (omega or Alpha should not improve gravity well or tbr or psw)

Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
5) And lastly, we've discussed just doing a great big "improvement" pass on every Science ability, one-by-one. Each one would receive an individual review with the express purpose of making them more effective for both PvP and Group PvE (STFs, Fleet Events, etc). This is likely what should end up happening - at least over the short term, to address some stand-out single-power issues - but it's among the most time-consuming options of the things we've discussed, so finding time in our schedule to focus on it is a difficult proposition.
If you need help on this one i can help you (sci pvper since 2010, mail me ingame at @hulkhogan.ita), and I like the "short term" part of the phrase

Thanks again for posting this and updating us.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 230
# 18
09-13-2012, 10:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
4) Introduce diminishing returns on Damage Boost abilities.

Part of the issue here is not just Science's underperformance, but also Tac's overperformance. We've talked about potentially finding a way to apply harsher diminishing returns on Damage Buffs as a result. We don't like this option as much, since it would upset many players and have a tangible impact on PvE. But it's still been discussed.

4b) If we ever did the above, we might also end up putting diminishing returns on Hull Heals, so that Spike Healing became less of an issue. In essence, any time your Hull is healed, you'd become temporarily resistant to additional healing. The more heal abilities you use in rapid succession, the less effective each would be. But again, this is not seen as an ideal option because of how many players it would impact negatively.
Some observations here:

1) _Hull_ healing absolutely isn't the problem. The problem with the heal/damage balance is that the introduction of TT-based shield redistribution essentially quadrupled everyone's shield capacity, MACO introduced more shield resists for eveyone, BFI doffs give everyone a kind of free RSP on a 45s cooldown, the duration of RSP has been increased and the borg shield proc provides 50% resist. _Shield_ resists/healing is the major problem here.
If you cut the TT redistribution down to 5s, reduce the proc chance of the BFI doff and prevent its proc from being applied multiple times simultaneously (currently this can happen even with just a single doff), you will have essentially solved the healing/resist problem without having to mess with the heal system itself.

PVP matches between two good groups take hours these days and kills are often only scored by lucky phaser procs against the shield subsystem because the shield healing/resist from abilities/procs that are independent of the ship type is beyond good and evil and has almost entirely removed the differences between ship classes when it comes to self-healing shields.

2) Tactical damage boosts basically haven't changed since S1.2. The games used to work before with these levels, it should work now without having to tweak this aspect significantly. (Apart from the fact that you once removed tac boosts for sci abilities and then reintroduced it... what is your true intention?)
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,952
# 19
09-13-2012, 10:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
Alright, I'll list out a couple things we've been discussing. You're welcome to offer feedback.

DISCLAIMER: These are discussions ONLY at this point. No testing, even internally, has yet been undertaken.

1) Increase the benefit the Aux Levels give to Offensive Science Abilities.

This would, effectively, increase the maximum performance of most Sci abilities. The thought here is that since Science ships have an innate Aux bonus, they would benefit from this change to a larger proportion. It may also become necessary to scale these benefits differently so that 60-75 Aux Power becomes 100% ability effectiveness, instead of 50... but maybe not.
sounds good, they need to have a greater effect in most cases.


Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
2) Increase the tactical value of Science Consoles.

We've discussed a couple different options here:

** a) Make all Science consoles dual-stat, so that they increase both offense and defense Sci skills. (e.g., Power Insulators console now also increases Flow Capacitors, etc.)

** b) Add a new set of stats to all Science Consoles. Examples include: +Cooldown Reductions (for Sci only) or Improved Sensor Analysis (which might encourage Sci ships to not universally use Sci console slots as "dump" slots for Cstore consoles).
i think this is not the problem that it used to be. now flow cap consoles buff weapon procs, glider, P2W consoles, and partial gens are great for anyone using any sci skills offensively, some P2W consoles, and warp plasma. wish partials buffed plasma weapon proc too. sci slots are not just for shield hitpoints generators anymore. giving a flow cap console insulators too would just make resistance even more of a problem. i almost always run 2 flow cap on my excelsior and 3 particle on my plasma and iso belching fleet ktinga.


Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
3) Reduce and/or eliminate many (or even all) "Global" cooldowns.

This would allow for better combo effects when using certain abilities in conjunction with one another. For example, it is currently impossible to use Tyken's Rift and Energy Siphon at the same time, even though using them both in tandem could be seen as an ideal tactical choice - they affect the same enemy stats, they use the same captain skills & consoles, etc.
ya a lot of sci skills are hamstrung by their system cooldown, they cant spike with thier abilities very well, and none of them work well enough on their own. some system cool downs are important, like the team skills, beam skills, EPtX skills, stuff like that. i don't see why using TSS should make FBP go on a cool down though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
4) Introduce diminishing returns on Damage Boost abilities.

Part of the issue here is not just Science's underperformance, but also Tac's overperformance. We've talked about potentially finding a way to apply harsher diminishing returns on Damage Buffs as a result. We don't like this option as much, since it would upset many players and have a tangible impact on PvE. But it's still been discussed.
even the most potent firepower can disappear in the spike healing ether when a dedicated healer is around. when one is not, it can seem like damage is overpowered right now. without a sci crippling someone a match can go on indefinitely with healing outpacing damage. tac is performing well, the others are under performing, don't nerf tac to under performing too

theres a lot of complaining by pve'ers about how powerful a tac/sci combo is, but their experience is limited to their little sandbox, that happens to be in a 10 thousand square mile desert, that we play in. some sci skills deal knetic and energy damage, those are in a tac captains realm of expertise. in effect, their damage dealing is very specialized and has no real use in a strong team, its sort of irreverent. sci/sci should be focusing on disabling and setting up kills, tac/sci cant really do that at all when he is trying to deal damage. disregard the pve complaints that their sci captain isn't a tac captain. to appease them i suggest making npc's have negative sensor, insulator and dampener resistance so a sci/sci can be better at pve.


Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
4b) If we ever did the above, we might also end up putting diminishing returns on Hull Heals, so that Spike Healing became less of an issue. In essence, any time your Hull is healed, you'd become temporarily resistant to additional healing. The more heal abilities you use in rapid succession, the less effective each would be. But again, this is not seen as an ideal option because of how many players it would impact negatively.
hmm. reducing how ludicrous spiky damage and healing is would be something i would approve of. it would make unskilled players who get one shot more happy at least. i'd prefer more sturdy tall ship combat were everything takes a lot of hits and time to take down, but were healing cant out pace the damage forever. in a way its sort of balanced right now, but its unideal for new players and favors the very skilled the most


Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
5) And lastly, we've discussed just doing a great big "improvement" pass on every Science ability, one-by-one. Each one would receive an individual review with the express purpose of making them more effective for both PvP and Group PvE (STFs, Fleet Events, etc). This is likely what should end up happening - at least over the short term, to address some stand-out single-power issues - but it's among the most time-consuming options of the things we've discussed, so finding time in our schedule to focus on it is a difficult proposition.
this would be good, there are several stinkers in the line up that need an overhaul. these changes should be made with the effects doffs have in mind as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
This is not the complete list of ideas we've floated, but some of the others are a too far-fetched (in terms of technical requirements) for me to feel comfortable talking about them publicly.



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i think you will get plenty of useful feedback from this, by the people that know this stuff best. exciting times!
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,945
# 20
09-13-2012, 10:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post

3) Reduce and/or eliminate many (or even all) "Global" cooldowns.

This would allow for better combo effects when using certain abilities in conjunction with one another. For example, it is currently impossible to use Tyken's Rift and Energy Siphon at the same time, even though using them both in tandem could be seen as an ideal tactical choice - they affect the same enemy stats, they use the same captain skills & consoles, etc.
I'm sure this will end up creating some super-powered combo of doom, but id be happy to see this.

House of Cards - Lvl 46 Fed mission
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