Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 797
# 81
09-16-2012, 09:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by husanakx View Post
Your crusade doesn't have a lot of support there... tactical captains should boost ALL dmg period. Last I checked SNB was just as effective in an escort... perhaps it should only strip half of peoples buffs if your in anything other then a sci ship.

I would advocate for a boost to a sci captain skill to make up the difference... how about a buff to sensor scan so that on top of what it does... it gave a 30s self buff that boosted particle generators by 300 or something... that would put it on par with Alpha for what it does for Tacs in sci.... That would have support .... instead of knocking another class down, why not buff the sci class up in a smart way.
Which in a game where the devs actually make smart choices id totally agree. However that isn't this game.

The skill tree needs adjusting before any captains or bo powers are touched. Then the no powers then the captain powers. In that order, for any semblance of balance to be created.

Then any future consoles need to be fit into the balance and just made powerful because it looks cool.

Seeing as neither of those things will happen though...
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 855
# 82
09-16-2012, 09:11 PM
What Sci/Sci really cares about damage anyway? I might finish a match with credit for 2 or 3 kills. Does that mean I didn't do anything significant to help my team get the other 12 or 13? The only number that means anything to a good sci/sci captain is the final score.

Tacs have always boosted sci powers, and always should. There is nothing wrong with that. The only reason it's even a debate right now is because Sci/Sci captains have lost the tools to perform their jobs adequately. Those being boff skills that aren't shrugged off by any player with a borg deflector, and a skill tree that makes sense.
Quote:
ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ RIYOTT ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ: Have you wondered that maybe all the things they've added to the gaem lately is to literally make PvP unbearable? Because everything they've added has no use in PvE at all; we know the big boss hates 14 yo min maxers
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 668
# 83
09-16-2012, 09:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716maikai View Post
Which in a game where the devs actually make smart choices id totally agree. However that isn't this game.

The skill tree needs adjusting before any captains or bo powers are touched. Then the no powers then the captain powers. In that order, for any semblance of balance to be created.

Then any future consoles need to be fit into the balance and just made powerful because it looks cool.

Seeing as neither of those things will happen though...
Seeing as neither of those will happen... then they should change a tactical Captain skill... really not following your logic...

If they are going to change a captain skill which IS WHAT you are talking about with your nerf tac talk... then why not just buff sci again ?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 735
# 84
09-17-2012, 12:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716maikai View Post
yes i know tacticals are supposed to do more damage
Quote:
Originally Posted by husanakx View Post
tactical captains should boost ALL dmg period.
I have an issue with this...

In STO damage is king. How easy or fast you can kill someone is determined by your damage output. (this may not be true when it comes to pvp premades, but we can't really balance the game round these 50 people)

This is especially true in PvE!!!!! It's ALL about the damage.

Using the "tacs should do more damage" rule, Tacs will be superior to other classes. In pug-pvp, and in pve.

IMO, the only way to balance the classes, short of redoing the whole PvE system and other game mechanics, is to give scis and engis the ability to deal more damage.

I would picture something like (top of my head suggestion):

Tac: Leave as it is.

Sci: Give sci captains the ability to deal more damage with either sci-skills or torpedos (or both). Replace scatter field and sci fleet with "Advanced Projectiles" and "Sci pattern Alpha", bootsting sci and projectile damage.

Engi: To help engis, the drain mechanics should be adressed. Make every weapon after 5 drain exponentially more, making it unviable to run more than 5 enegy weapons unless you have good engi power buffs. Add to this a significantly shorter CD of nadion, and also a "drain reduction" to EPS transfer, and the classic beamboat, or the 4dhc+3turret escort will be a good engi choise.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,761
# 85
09-17-2012, 01:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dassemsto View Post
I have an issue with this...

In STO damage is king. How easy or fast you can kill someone is determined by your damage output. (this may not be true when it comes to pvp premades, but we can't really balance the game round these 50 people)

This is especially true in PvE!!!!! It's ALL about the damage.

Using the "tacs should do more damage" rule, Tacs will be superior to other classes. In pug-pvp, and in pve.

IMO, the only way to balance the classes, short of redoing the whole PvE system and other game mechanics, is to give scis and engis the ability to deal more damage.

I would picture something like (top of my head suggestion):

Tac: Leave as it is.

Sci: Give sci captains the ability to deal more damage with either sci-skills or torpedos (or both). Replace scatter field and sci fleet with "Advanced Projectiles" and "Sci pattern Alpha", bootsting sci and projectile damage.

Engi: To help engis, the drain mechanics should be adressed. Make every weapon after 5 drain exponentially more, making it unviable to run more than 5 enegy weapons unless you have good engi power buffs. Add to this a significantly shorter CD of nadion, and also a "drain reduction" to EPS transfer, and the classic beamboat, or the 4dhc+3turret escort will be a good engi choise.
actually healing is king, befuddling is queen, and damage is a red headed step child around people that know how to play.

it should absolutely be 'balanced' for us 50 people, the people that use their ships to as close to 100% of their potential as possible. in pve and pugs were there is no coordination and super healers, it can seem like damage is all that maters, but if they balance for that the game is broken. they would have to do away with cross healing in its entirety for that to work. balancing it not for us would be the same thing as gutting the teamwork portion of this game. it would be kirk online, were the only class worth using is tac.

because the pve is so absolutely pathetic, all you do is apply space bar over a period of time and your done. you are also rewarded over and over for having a terrible build and using less then 10% of your ships potential. then you try to pvp and its everyone else who is the problem of course a tac is the only thing you should bother pveing in, the only thing that maters in pve is the only thing you do well. no player base in any game in the history of gaming has needed to L2P as badly as the vast majority of sto's players. and devs. it has a lot to do with pve teaching you how to play wrong

for quite literally the hundredth time, the damage a sci deals is irreverent. IRREVERENT. their abilitys could deal 0 damage, yet have their other effects and it would change nothing. those other effects arent as strong as they should be, thats the only problem with sci abilities right now. it does not mater if tacs can cause those science abilities to deal a fair bit of damage, wile doing that they arent doing what a sci does to set up a kill for his team mates. so a kill is not gotten. any attack patern science should buff the non damage effect, that would be 100 times more useful then buffed damage. for pve, it wouldn't hurt if npc's were more vulnerable to sci's effect, so it would be at least somewhat playable in pve.

to fix eng they should double the up time of nadion, make EPS power transfer the same thing as a team battery, and RSF and MW should be cast able. eng would be a beast, a must have healer. tac could no longer basically do its job wile dealing hilariously more damage.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 735
# 86
09-17-2012, 01:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
actually healing is king, befuddling is queen, and damage is a red headed step child around people that know how to play.

it should absolutely be 'balanced' for us 50 people, the people that use their ships to as close to 100% of their potential as possible. in pve and pugs were there is no coordination and super healers, it can seem like damage is all that maters, but if they balance for that the game is broken. they would have to do away with cross healing in its entirety for that to work. balancing it not for us would be the same thing as gutting the teamwork portion of this game. it would be kirk online, were the only class worth using is tac.

because the pve is so absolutely pathetic, all you do is apply space bar over a period of time and your done. you are also rewarded over and over for having a terrible build and using less then 10% of your ships potential. then you try to pvp and its everyone else who is the problem of course a tac is the only thing you should bother pveing in, the only thing that maters in pve is the only thing you do well. no player base in any game in the history of gaming has needed to L2P as badly as the vast majority of sto's players. and devs. it has a lot to do with pve teaching you how to play wrong

for quite literally the hundredth time, the damage a sci deals is irreverent. IRREVERENT. their abilitys could deal 0 damage, yet have their other effects and it would change nothing. those other effects arent as strong as they should be, thats the only problem with sci abilities right now. it does not mater if tacs can cause those science abilities to deal a fair bit of damage, wile doing that they arent doing what a sci does to set up a kill for his team mates. so a kill is not gotten. any attack patern science should buff the non damage effect, that would be 100 times more useful then buffed damage. for pve, it wouldn't hurt if npc's were more vulnerable to sci's effect, so it would be at least somewhat playable in pve.

to fix eng they should double the up time of nadion, make EPS power transfer the same thing as a team battery, and RSF and MW should be cast able. eng would be a beast, a must have healer. tac could no longer basically do its job wile dealing hilariously more damage.
Healing is king is only true for premades. Even in "elite" stfs you see team healing only when someone forgot so switch of "target of target casting". Sci abilities besides dealing damage are useless. Let's face it, the main objective in sto is to burn through those 500k hp of a tac cube as fast as possible. The only sci skill contributing to this at all is SS, and this does not affect the npc heavy damage dealers as they are immune. The devs have neither the wish nor the ability to make this a dynamic pvp game, because to do this they would have to completely redo PvE.

I'm all for balance. PvP is the way to measure balance, but with the aim to make PvE more balanced. And PvE is mainly about 1 thing. DPS. Staying alive in an escort in a STF is no problem (one-shotting excepted), even for a tac captain, so heals and damage negating is irrelevant. Zone control can only buy (=waste) time. FBP is useless, because even if you deal back 10 times the damage you receive you will die first because of the HP difference.

Sure, I'm writing this in the PvP forum, but "PvP is not an island". The other classes has to become relevant not only in PvP, but in PvE. Just look to groundplay: Here they more or less solved it, by allowing engis to drop extremely strong bombs, and by allowing scis to strip shields with tachyon harmonics. On ground, there IS a reason to field other classes.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,702
# 87
09-17-2012, 02:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dassemsto View Post
In STO damage is king. How easy or fast you can kill someone is determined by your damage output. This is especially true in PvE!!!!! It's ALL about the damage.

I would picture something like (top of my head suggestion):

Tac: Leave as it is.

Sci: Give sci captains the ability to deal more damage with either sci-skills or torpedos (or both). Replace scatter field and sci fleet with "Advanced Projectiles" and "Sci pattern Alpha", bootsting sci and projectile damage.

Engi: To help engis, the drain mechanics should be adressed. Make every weapon after 5 drain exponentially more, making it unviable to run more than 5 enegy weapons unless you have good engi power buffs. Add to this a significantly shorter CD of nadion, and also a "drain reduction" to EPS transfer, and the classic beamboat, or the 4dhc+3turret escort will be a good engi choise.
I like your ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
actually healing is king, befuddling is queen, and damage is a red headed step child around people that know how to play.

it should absolutely be 'balanced' for us 50 people, the people that use their ships to as close to 100% of their potential as possible.

... balancing it not for us would be the same thing as gutting the teamwork portion of this game. it would be kirk online, were the only class worth using is tac.

because the pve is so absolutely pathetic, all you do is apply space bar over a period of time and your done. ...

for quite literally the hundredth time, the damage a sci deals is irreverent. IRREVERENT. their abilitys could deal 0 damage, yet have their other effects and it would change nothing. those other effects arent as strong as they should be, thats the only problem with sci abilities right now. ....

to fix eng they should double the up time of nadion, make EPS power transfer the same thing as a team battery, and RSF and MW should be cast able. eng would be a beast, a must have healer. tac could no longer basically do its job wile dealing hilariously more damage.
Just to be clear, there is too much healing in this game, however that healing doesn't come from Engs, which are the healing class. So healing being KING doesn't mean anything for class balance.

We have Kirk online at the moment, and i really doubt that balance took pvp premades into account....ever. Tac are the most viable option, its what we're going up against.

If healing were king, then premades would field more then one eng, which they have never done, we are now at the point that bringing even one eng is debatable.

If healing were king in PvE, 5 men eng/cruisers, would be the wtg in STFs and NWS ( which with the input of the pandas was designed to include a healing element.) The truth is though, 5 engs in escorts are better in both scenarios then in healboats.The best team combos for both completely ignore engs, as it is right now. How is healing king in pve?

Neither the 50 ppl, nor the masses can achieve anything with fielding more healing. Furthermore, PvP balance without PvE will never happen in this game. We need to make healing King, by reducing the amount of healing available, and maybe decreasing the effectiveness of yo-yo healing and make it rely on a healer class to be delivered.

While tacs are viable in all ship classes (except carriers) sci and engs have become second grade choices in everything.

This has nothing to do with only tac having the smarts to use their ship effectively. The ship classes are out of whack because sci ships are bad, and engs are not the best cruisers pilots anymore.

Healing does not generate kills, ever. The pressure DPS you gain, is negated by stuff like borg procs, BFI doffs, and other no skill events in PvP. In PvE the timer opt timers will simply run out, or the transporter explode, so dedicated healing has become marginalized.

If an escort can pop HE3 at 125 aux with nearly full uptime, what point is there in bringing a dedicated high aux cruisers or sci ship? none, of the sci cpt skills or eng cpt skills will make that HE3 at 125 aux be more potent then when a tac pops it.

Tac are out of whack, the only thing that counts in PvE and PvP is indeed burst dmg, and they deliver that best, as they should. CC lacks effectiveness to compensate lack of burst due to high resists in pvp, and a dedicated healer means a lock of burst dmg, or of snb so he becomes a burden as well.

In PvE, cc is a bit more effective, so sci ships help to reach missions objectives, but without any burst, not much gain here either. Engs and healers again are superflous. You keep the transport alive and reach wave 9 without em. Just look at CUSE, do you put a healing beam boat on the Kang with hugh aux to keep it alive, or an Tac/scort to blow up bops, which one reaches the optional more reliably in your view?

Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013

Last edited by havam; 09-17-2012 at 03:31 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 668
# 88
09-17-2012, 03:06 AM
I agree completely that Engi and Sci could use a dmg boost....

My point was Mais crusade is silly... he would rather go play another game then take the 4 hours to level a new tac. ;P

Honesty Yes sci need a dmg boost... and if it revolved around sci ships that would be even better cause frankly if scis did 90% if the dmg of a tac there would be zero reason to ever run a tac scort... why not run a sci take the 10% dmg reduction and pick up a snb.

Scis need a self buff in the range of 30s... tied to something... think sensor scan would make the most sense to me... it finds the enemy weak points... and if it self buffed a +300 or so to particle gen... the same logic could apply to there sci magik.

Engis could also use a buff, in dmg... but again same reasoning they can't be made to be 90% of a tac or a gain why not run the an engi for all the freebie heals. Having said that I think something like nadion... could add an added, DEM like effect as well as the power drain resistance... giving them some extra spike... but on a longer cool down then either of the other 2 captain types.

That's all I think is needed to balance... the dmg numebrs... Frankly Tacticals should ALWAYS do more dmg in ANY ship then the other 2 classes... they DO NOT get free heals.... or Buff Strips. The most squishy class should logicly be the strongest in terms of dps.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,702
# 89
09-17-2012, 03:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by husanakx View Post
I agree completely that Engi and Sci could use a dmg boost....

My point was Mais crusade is silly... he would rather go play another game then take the 4 hours to level a new tac. ;P

Honesty Yes sci need a dmg boost... and if it revolved around sci ships that would be even better cause frankly if scis did 90% if the dmg of a tac there would be zero reason to ever run a tac scort... why not run a sci take the 10% dmg reduction and pick up a snb.

Scis need a self buff in the range of 30s... tied to something... think sensor scan would make the most sense to me... it finds the enemy weak points... and if it self buffed a +300 or so to particle gen... the same logic could apply to there sci magik.

Engis could also use a buff, in dmg... but again same reasoning they can't be made to be 90% of a tac or a gain why not run the an engi for all the freebie heals. Having said that I think something like nadion... could add an added, DEM like effect as well as the power drain resistance... giving them some extra spike... but on a longer cool down then either of the other 2 captain types.

That's all I think is needed to balance... the dmg numebrs... Frankly Tacticals should ALWAYS do more dmg in ANY ship then the other 2 classes... they DO NOT get free heals.... or Buff Strips. The most squishy class should logicly be the strongest in terms of dps.
We seem to agree that escorts should be squishy, which they really aren't right now. But lets take this one step further, from a design perspective there seem to be two trends in this thread.

a) return some of the native boost of sticking with your ship class. Sci should be best in sci boats, Tac in escorts, Eng in cruisers.

b) make it so, that each class brings something unique (and viable, aka not sophie unique) to every ship class.

For a) all we need is to better synergize high level BO powers with cpt powers. I think this could work well, and be much easier, however, we need to keep the new escorts in mind.

for b) something along dassem's post would be the way to go. Eng were at some point design to be the only viable class for beam boat, why not make them viable for all cannon escorts. Buff High level Torps BO skills, which are after all a burst weapon. we would actually get a lot more diversity in the game.

I was thinking maybe make the Fleet skills, ship class dependent and replace them with new skills on the players. Want sci fleet, better field a sci ship, ....

To me this seems to be a lot more work, but it would result in a more intricate system, with more diversity, and the huge bonus, that players can fly the combos they want.

We need to come to a point, where there are specific sci scorts, sci cuirser and sci/sci that make sense. The current effectiveness of Tac/Fleet Vorcha, Tac/bug, and Tac/RSV shoud be the measuring stick. Where is my Eng/scort, Eng/cruiser, Eng/sci combo that rivals the tac options in usefullness, they don't exist imv

On a side note: Actually Tacs should always do the most dmg is relative to me. Tac should do the most effective dmg, which is burst. An eng sticking around for the whole match, should rival the tac's total dps and probably go slightly above it applied over time. Tac still is the killer, because of the burst that comes from his class. But I'm not sure tacs have to be better in DoT and in Burst.
Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013

Last edited by havam; 09-17-2012 at 03:24 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 735
# 90
09-17-2012, 04:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by havam View Post

On a side note: Actually Tacs should always do the most dmg is relative to me. Tac should do the most effective dmg, which is burst. An eng sticking around for the whole match, should rival the tac's total dps and probably go slightly above it applied over time. Tac still is the killer, because of the burst that comes from his class. But I'm not sure tacs have to be better in DoT and in Burst.
aha! this is an idea I really like!

a) sustained DPS: should require more power reserves, and be the engis speciality. Engis should be able to do more actual DPS.

b) spike DPS: should be less frequent and be the tacs specialty. Tacs should be able to deliver insane bursts, but less DPS over time.

c) torpedos and mines: should be the choise of a sci. And the sci should become good enough at dropping shields to negate the lack of power to weapons.

a and b could be acheived by tweaking drain mechanics and engi captain abilities, like i explained earlier.

c could be acheived by fixing Tacy/CPB, and by giving sci captains a way to boost their sci skills. Change Scatterfield to "Sci Proficiency". 15 second uptime, 45 second CD. +50 to all offensive sci skills.

Last edited by dassemsto; 09-17-2012 at 06:07 AM.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:50 AM.