Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,628
# 91
09-18-2012, 04:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
Otherwise you would know that the Akira, Steamrunner, Defiant, Norway, and one more little ship ( that I can't remember the name of, right now) are escorts.
Wrong.

The only ship that was classified as a Escort was the Defiant, none of the rest of the list were ever given a canon classification.


You are the one bring canon up, too bad for you DS9 hated technical terms with a passion and so the ILM ships were never given classifications.


Quote:
How do we let a created ship dethrone an Iconic canon ship in its role?
Because its 2409, the Galaxy class dates back at least to 2364 (Encounter at Farpoint) meaning its a 45 years old design.

You are making the exact same argument about people that want their T5 connies, just because its "iconic" does not mean you utter ignore the timeline were it puts the Galaxy as a nearly half a century design.

And dont being up the Excelsior, they had reasons for it and the complain about that one comes from Sovereign fans that see it stealing the Sovereign thunder ... funny how you did not mentioned the Enterprise E.

And B'rel? dont bring Klingon designs since canon reused it so many times the whole thing is now excused as "Klingons refit their ships a lot".

You people and your flying museum, I am honestly sick and tired of it.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,825
# 92
09-18-2012, 04:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron View Post
Because its 2409, the Galaxy class dates back at least to 2364 (Encounter at Farpoint) meaning its a 45 years old design.

You are making the exact same argument about people that want their T5 connies, just because its "iconic" does not mean you utter ignore the timeline were it puts the Galaxy as a nearly half a century design.
The Galaxy Class was build to be over 100 years in service. Other than the excelsior or any other ship, the Galaxy Class was build in a modular way, so it could house the latest technology. Its age shouldn't be a big deal.
No one wants the Galaxy Class to be superior to any other ship in the game. We just want a ship that can be more versatile and more up to date AND more close to the original than this thing we got in STO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron View Post
You people and your flying museum, I am honestly sick and tired of it.
This doesn't help very much.
And to be blunt, why do you care if you are not a fan of it ?

Live long and prosper.

-> -> -> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- <- <-
T6 Guardian Class design / A 25th century Ambassador refit
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,628
# 93
09-18-2012, 07:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yreodred View Post
The Galaxy Class was build to be over 100 years in service.
And then the Borg shown up.

The Galaxy Class was clearly not up to face the Borg, after Wolf 359 we know Starfleet started new designs that could face the Borg, we know that because the Defiant come as a result of Wolf 359.

Just because it was designed to be in service for 100 years does not mean it would, it was a ship designed when the Federation had no real enemies, they been at peace with the Klingon Empire for decades, the Romulan Star Empire had entered a period of isolationism also decades before and the most recent conflict had been with the Cardassian Union.

Quote:
We just want a ship that can be more versatile and more up to date AND more close to the original than this thing we got in STO.
Like what?

Its a cruiser, you are not going to get loaded up on Universal Stations ... even the Odyssey only have two stations ... is your suggestion making the Galaxy the Operations Cruiser Odyssey? Then what about the NEWER Intrepid and Sovereign classes that are as canon as the Galaxy class ... we all have gripes about something.


Quote:
This doesn't help very much.
Ever since I come here the ship requests I seen were mostly from TOS era ... like the Constellation class or another ships that would be pushing 100 years old.

We are NOT in TNG era, I can understand people want ships they seen ... I would like to seet the New Orleans that is not as much as a relic as some ships that are request but I also want things in their proper places, as much you like the praise the Enterprise D the fact is that it was replaced by the Enterprise E, the Sovereign class became the new Enterprise.

One thing is having a old ship, another is having a old ship being T5 and being as capable as the latest canon ships, I make this argument about the flying museum whenever people not only want the ship but also wanting to take then into STFs regardless of the ship age ... I read enough Ambassador Class proposal stats to know were it leads.

If people got their ways we all had universal stations, a turn rate 10 minimum, 5 consoles slots on all sections and cloak.

I want to fix the Galaxy class as its a valid ship on its own, not it being a Operations Odyssey with a different skin and certainly NOT being more capable that a Odyssey ... however that is hard since the only place it can go is a Hull strong ship.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,825
# 94
09-18-2012, 08:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron View Post
And then the Borg shown up.

The Galaxy Class was clearly not up to face the Borg, after Wolf 359 we know Starfleet started new designs that could face the Borg, we know that

because the Defiant come as a result of Wolf 359.

Just because it was designed to be in service for 100 years does not mean it would, it was a ship designed when the Federation had no real

enemies, they been at peace with the Klingon Empire for decades, the Romulan Star Empire had entered a period of isolationism also decades

before and the most recent conflict had been with the Cardassian Union.
Starfleet was able to keep the T5 Excelsior up to date, why shouldn't it be possible to do the same thing with the Galaxy Class?
(A ship which was especially made to be adopted to new technology)

Do you really think that a period of peace has made Starfleet lazy?
I don't think that they are that stupid. They always had good intelligence to stay informed about other species.
Btw. you are forgetting the Klingons, Starflet had much contact with them, as long as they where allied. They surely kept their ships on the highest standard for battle situations.
Just look at the cold war we had in the last century. Military tech has been developed at this time, they did military exercises and so on.

Starfleet surely did the same thing at peace times.
Saying that Starfleet didn't care about threads and started building their ships less sophisticated for battle just cannot be true, i just don't buy that.
It sounds just like a cheap excuse to me, why the Galaxy Class family (Galaxy, Nebula, New Orleans and so on) is supposed to be inferior to new Sovereign and Akira ship types.

Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron View Post
Like what?

Its a cruiser, you are not going to get loaded up on Universal Stations ... even the Odyssey only have two stations ... is your suggestion making the

Galaxy the Operations Cruiser Odyssey? Then what about the NEWER Intrepid and Sovereign classes that are as canon as the Galaxy class ...

we all have gripes about something.

Personally i think that all Starfleet ships should get at least a Lt. universal, in trade of a common Ensign Station.

The Galaxy is a special case, because it is a "Exploration" Cruiser (not only in STO), it is supposed to operate far from any reinforcements and for several years on its own. Just because of this alone the Galaxy Class should get a Lt. Cmdr universal in exchange for its Lt. Science or Ensign Engineering IMHO.
According to everything we know about that ship class it would be THE perfect ship suited for solo players in STO.


Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron View Post
We are NOT in TNG era, I can understand people want ships they seen ... I would like to seet the New Orleans that is not as much as a relic as

some ships that are request but I also want things in their proper places, as much you like the praise the Enterprise D the fact is that it was

replaced by the Enterprise E, the Sovereign class became the new Enterprise.
That was done only to get a new, more "kirk-ish" looking ship for the big screen.
They wanted to get a ship which the audience can better relate to Star Trek, because some backwood people wouldn't reckognize the Galaxy Class as a Star trek ship, so they made one that resembles Kirks ship better for the movies. (As if a Star Trek Movie without a Kirk reference wouldn't work)
Personally, i think the producers Star Trek continously underestimate their audience again and again.

There was absolutely no in-universe need for the Sovereign prior to its introduction. And even after the Sovereigns introduction, Galaxy Class ships where doing extremely well in the Dominion War, in fact none of them has been destroyed.
Prior to the introduction of the Sovereign i cannot remember one single line or citation that said the Galaxy Class would lack firepower or combat effectiveness and they needed a new, better ship.


Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron;5754411One thing is having a old ship, another is having a old ship being T5 and being as capable as the latest [i
canon[/i] ships, I make this argument about the flying museum whenever people not only want the ship but also wanting to take then into STFs regardless of the ship age ... I read enough Ambassador Class proposal stats to know were it leads.

If people got their ways we all had universal stations, a turn rate 10 minimum, 5 consoles slots on all sections and cloak.

I want to fix the Galaxy class as its a valid ship on its own, not it being a Operations Odyssey with a different skin and certainly NOT being more

capable that a Odyssey ... however that is hard since the only place it can go is a Hull strong ship.
It is not about that people want a super Galaxy Class, i can only speak for myself, but i just want a ship that resembles the specifications of the original ship more than Cryptics interpretation.
The Galaxy Class just isn't a pure "damage taker" it was build with the most powerful phaser arrays of its time. As we all know Starfleet tends to update their ships now and then, so the Galaxys Phaser arrays must still be very powerful compared to other ships. (thats why i would like to see it getting an additional tac Console.)

Cryptics interpretation of that ship is not only wrong it leads a lot of people to the wrong conclusions. Starfleet never had a Cruiser/escort/Science ship system, all ships where more or less cruisers. They just had different focus, but internally they all where Cruisers and the Galaxy was their King.
I wrote "was" on purpose because you are right, the Galaxy Class ist no longer the newest ship, but it still is a very powerful Starship. But that thing we got from cryptic is just a boring "Brick" ship with no firepower to speak of.

Good night.


Live long and prosper.

-> -> -> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- <- <-
T6 Guardian Class design / A 25th century Ambassador refit
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,619
# 95
09-18-2012, 09:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
You must realize that the BOFF setup don't allow the Galaxy to use affective science abilities and the best I can do is send a bunch of torpedo at people, hoping to catch their shields down. That not much of any role and when the enemy turns on me i can't do anything to defend myself.
I'm sorry I didn't mean using science skills my meaning was that you need to use your engineering abilitys as well as your weapons to do greater damage. Like a science ship uses its abilitys. So in essence things like warp plasma and directed energy monulation are the skills you should focus on deploying and treat weapons damage as secondary. Aceton bean can also be quite useful as it debuffs the amount of damage an enemy can produce. If you feel you can spare the money the regent is a nice ship and the torpedo can make your galaxy more effective. Assuming of corse you can use the ship on another character, if not not worth the money.
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abriham Lincoln
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,619
# 96
09-18-2012, 09:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
No, the canon Galaxy is not a support ship. Its a ship that can hold its own without reinforcements. In DS9 they were wing leaders, which are Command ships, not support ships. Support ships do miniscule task that are job specific like drop mine, or hunt for cloaked ships, ferry supplies. In the canon world, escorts are support ships and the not guns of the fleet. We already know this game don't follow canon but at least they can make the Galaxy like it should be, up there with the Oddyssey.

My ships, beams are not strong enogh to do damage to players shields. Thats why i made this thread because the Galaxy-R is too weak.
I can't be sure since startrek and real life navies tend to have nothing to do with eachother, but, a command ship is usualy a support vessel since it has to be kept safe. Granted, it would depend on the kind of support you want to provide. In the shows we never really see whats going on on the bridges of other ships and we never saw them throwing random healing powers at eachother for good reason. The game world and the canon world can't really exist side by side there are going to be things that work and there are going to be things that don't. Fact is it sucks that we can't taylor any ship hull to provide us with the play experiance we want in the ship hull we love (yet) so we have to choose what we want, the looks, or the performance. Keep in mind that when this game launcher the iconic ships were all captain level and there were no t5 retrofts.
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abriham Lincoln
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 216
# 97
09-18-2012, 10:08 PM
Gentlemen, lol.
Trust me, this debate is a pointless and ultimately fruitless effort.

If you care to you can track down threads on this very topic back from Beta and Alpha that were hundreds of pages long. With detailed breakdowns on every episode and aspect of the ship in question.

The Galaxy Class Starship through all of canon was the strongest Federation vessel in operation. Had the largest mass, highest capacity torpedo tubes, largest warp core, largest mobile phaser platform (tied with the Nebula), of any Starfleet or Federation vessel.

In TNG Generations it was shown to have been equipped with, at the time of its destruction, type 11 phaser arrays. Which is an upgrade over the type 10 it was originally equipped with and yet another upgrade of the type 10.5 that it was seen to have had equipped in later episodes.

Its firepower output as demonstrated over the course of TNG and DS9 was unequaled in the Federation, and only the Negvar and D'Deridex vessels were capable of doing more damage from a fixed weapon point meaning the Galaxy was still in possession of superior armaments.

In DS9 during the Dominion War only the Galaxy Class vessels suffered zero losses.
They were also seen wading through Dominion and Cardassian fleets and taking out Dominion Cruisers in a single high powered phaser blast.

Her "agility" if you will permit the humor, was also seen on display in several instances.
And she was not lacking in any way.

You can disagree, and many will based on the whole Newer/more Advanced means more powerful fallacy. Until they understand the difference between a mature technology and a developing one, and comprehend it. Its meaningless to argue with them.

The Devs do not care.
Want proof? Look at the C-Store.
They continually ask you to pay money in order to gain new moves for your primary "toon."

I don't recall anyone ever having to pay actual cash for a new rank of Mortal Strike for their warrior in WoW.
Or armor sets in any other MMO.

The ships now are already a step or two ahead of the free models.
And every ship released after those first ships have continued to one up the previous models ever so slightly. What makes you think that they will stop now?
Why not start including an extra weapon slot?
Don't think they'd do that... what do you call the weapon consoles that function as a weapon with a 3 minute cool down. Sooner or later that won't be "cool" or "practical" enough.

Playing GW2 right now, and they only offer things that make the game different from a visual aspect. Nothing that has been sold has any actual impact on another player regardless of the item in question.

That is how a Micro Transaction Market should work.
Not this jerk you around and make you pay for something that EVERY OTHER GAME OFFERS FOR FREE.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,619
# 98
09-18-2012, 10:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by veraticus View Post
Gentlemen, lol.
Trust me, this debate is a pointless and ultimately fruitless effort.

If you care to you can track down threads on this very topic back from Beta and Alpha that were hundreds of pages long. With detailed breakdowns on every episode and aspect of the ship in question.

The Galaxy Class Starship through all of canon was the strongest Federation vessel in operation. Had the largest mass, highest capacity torpedo tubes, largest warp core, largest mobile phaser platform (tied with the Nebula), of any Starfleet or Federation vessel.

In TNG Generations it was shown to have been equipped with, at the time of its destruction, type 11 phaser arrays. Which is an upgrade over the type 10 it was originally equipped with and yet another upgrade of the type 10.5 that it was seen to have had equipped in later episodes.

Its firepower output as demonstrated over the course of TNG and DS9 was unequaled in the Federation, and only the Negvar and D'Deridex vessels were capable of doing more damage from a fixed weapon point meaning the Galaxy was still in possession of superior armaments.

In DS9 during the Dominion War only the Galaxy Class vessels suffered zero losses.
They were also seen wading through Dominion and Cardassian fleets and taking out Dominion Cruisers in a single high powered phaser blast.

(snip)
Well there was the one near the begining of the war that was rammed by bug ships in the gamma quadrant. And while we never really saw any others explode, we did see a few heavily damaged during the first battle of chintoka, then there was the entire fleet destroyed by the breen at the second battle of chintoka which I'm sure contained galaxy class ships. Oh and the battle to retake ds9 where only the defiant broke through the dominion fleet, we can assume the galaxy's we saw there suffered some losses. There are also the countless other battles we never saw but we do know the war was going badly,which means the probable loss of galaxy class ships.

I also still maintain that the problem is not the ship its the available powers and the fact that most engineering powers share a cool down. If you equip an engineering oddy the same was as you equip your R with the same boff layout I'd bet you find it just as lacking.
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abriham Lincoln
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,628
# 99
09-18-2012, 10:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yreodred View Post
[font=Verdana]Starfleet was able to keep the T5 Excelsior up to date, why shouldn't it be possible to do the same thing with the Galaxy Class?
(A ship which was especially made to be adopted to new technology)
The T5 Excelsior is the Lakota refit variant, I dont particular like it at T5 but the Galaxy retrofit does have stronger hull and shields that the T5 Excelsior.

Quote:
Do you really think that a period of peace has made Starfleet lazy?
Have nothing to do with lazy, it have to do with the situation at hand.

Quote:
I don't think that they are that stupid. They always had good intelligence to stay informed about other species.
Oh? like with the Borg or the Dominion?

Those TWO situations were completely unforeseen by the Federation when the Galaxy Class started its design.

Quote:
Btw. you are forgetting the Klingons, Starflet had much contact with them, as long as they where allied. They surely kept their ships on the highest standard for battle situations.
No, I am not.

Problem is you really are not making a case because the series pretty much had the Klingon using the same ships, the Klingon Bird-of-Prey was used to many times to the point it became utter inconsistent due to size differences.

If I go by Klingon battlecruisers we go from D7-K't'inga-Negh'Va.

Quote:
Just look at the cold war we had in the last century. Military tech has been developed at this time, they did military exercises and so on.
There was NO Cold War with the Klingon Empire, Undiscovered Country was EXACTLY the end of the "Cold War".

You want me to show much technological military progress have been made since the fall of the Berlin Wall? the F-35 have yet to enter service.

Quote:
Starfleet surely did the same thing at peace times.
Peace times =/= Cold War.

The Excelsior was build when a war with the Klingon Empire was a possibility, the Ambassador and Galaxy Classes were build AFTER such possibility was remote.

Quote:
Saying that Starfleet didn't care about threads and started building their ships less sophisticated for battle just cannot be true, i just don't buy that.
Starfleet is NOT, I repeat NOT a military institution ... Gene Roddenberry was very much against the very idea.

Quote:
It sounds just like a cheap excuse to me, why the Galaxy Class family (Galaxy, Nebula, New Orleans and so on) is supposed to be inferior to new Sovereign and Akira ship types.
Because the Galaxy Class was a flying HOTEL, a well armed one sure but still ... do you see military warships carrying the crew families?

Heck the Galaxy class had a Arboretum.

Also not inferior? Lets see ...

Galaxy Class:
12/14 phaser arrays
2 torpedo launchers (photon)

Sovereign class:
12 phaser arrays (before refit)
16 phaser arrays {after refit}
1 forward quantum torpedo launcher
3 forward photon torpedo launchers
6 aft photon torpedo launchers

Just in launchers alone it outguns the Galaxy number, at best you get equal phaser arrays or 2 extra but still the Galaxy would be severely outmatched in combat as it should, in fact I could point out the Voyager model had 13 visible phaser arrays, 2 forward Torpedo Launchers and 1 twin rear Torpedo Launcher, even the Intrepid class could slug it as well as the Galaxy class.


Quote:
Personally i think that all Starfleet ships should get at least a Lt. universal, in trade of a common Ensign Station.
Cryptic thinks otherwise, after all they dont like giving Universal stations for some reason and I dont think its the way either.

Quote:
The Galaxy is a special case, because it is a "Exploration" Cruiser (not only in STO), it is supposed to operate far from any reinforcements and for several years on its own.
Yet I dont think I ever seen it doing it in the show ... yes, it perhaps "supposed to" but how many times was it near the Romulan Border?

Quote:
Just because of this alone the Galaxy Class should get a Lt. Cmdr universal in exchange for its Lt. Science or Ensign Engineering IMHO.
Why? Since when does "operate on its own" now equals to Universal Lt. Cmdr station? and in exchange for its ONLY Science Station?

If its a explorer ship were its science station?

And lets not go over how a Cmdr and 2 Lt. Cmdr Eng Stations would be over the top, the Odyssey sure as hell does not let you do that and no Klingon Cruiser allows it either.

Quote:
According to everything we know about that ship class it would be THE perfect ship suited for solo players in STO.
Funny, I would say THAT would be the Intrepid because oh, what ship got stranded on the other side of the Galaxy?

And I will stop here because I am tired of answering point per point and after these two statements ... I think I will just stop.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,825
# 100
09-19-2012, 07:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron View Post
Because the Galaxy Class was a flying HOTEL, a well armed one sure but still ... do you see military warships carrying the crew families?

Heck the Galaxy class had a Arboretum.

Also not inferior? Lets see ...

Galaxy Class:
12/14 phaser arrays
2 torpedo launchers (photon)

Sovereign class:
12 phaser arrays (before refit)
16 phaser arrays {after refit}
1 forward quantum torpedo launcher
3 forward photon torpedo launchers
6 aft photon torpedo launchers

Just in launchers alone it outguns the Galaxy number, at best you get equal phaser arrays or 2 extra but still the Galaxy would be severely outmatched in combat as it should, in fact I could point out the Voyager model had 13 visible phaser arrays, 2 forward Torpedo Launchers and 1 twin rear Torpedo Launcher, even the Intrepid class could slug it as well as the Galaxy class.
The Sovereign was just a weapons overkill, no (canon) Starfleet ship ever had such an arsenal of weapons. The Producers just wanted to make Star Trek feel much more "cool" (because they believe that thje audience may think that the usefulness of a ship is measured on it's weapons) and more adapted to the time this movie came out.

In Universe:
I think if the design Team of the Galaxy would have created this ship on a later point in time, it would be just as heavy armed as any other (new) Starfleet ship.
Thats why we have to assume that these ships weapon and defense systems must have been heaily improved while the Dominion War.
(Only if we accept this arms race within federation Ships.)

Aboretum, Families, Kindergarten where surely things Starfleet abandoned because they just didn't work very well. But i don't see a reason to decry that shipclass just because of this. Those things just won't be taken in account anymore, in favour of other things, like more fusion reactors, stronger EPS conduits, maybe bigger shuttlebays, or whatever.


Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron View Post
Why? Since when does "operate on its own" now equals to Universal Lt. Cmdr station? and in exchange for its ONLY Science Station?

If its a explorer ship were its science station?

And lets not go over how a Cmdr and 2 Lt. Cmdr Eng Stations would be over the top, the Odyssey sure as hell does not let you do that and no Klingon Cruiser allows it either.
Because a ship that is supposed to operate on it's own has to be flexible and be able to adopt on many situations.
This Lt.Cmdr Universal Station was just a proposal, a additional Lt. Universal would be ok too.

Btw: Who on earth would make a setup with 1 Cmdr Eng and 2 Lt.Cmdr Eng? This would take away as much as all offensive powers and would make this ship even more borin to fly. It would be the same as if you would just disard all weapons. lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron View Post
Funny, I would say THAT would be the Intrepid because oh, what ship got stranded on the other side of the Galaxy?

And I will stop here because I am tired of answering point per point and after these two statements ... I think I will just stop.
The Intrepid was not build to operate on it's own. In the series they hadn't much of a problem with that ship because of some very bad writing. In contrast to the small intrepid the Galaxy Class would have been much more suited to be stranded on the other side of the Galaxy. I think it was supposed to be one of the challenges Voyagers crew should have overcome in the first place. (but as i said bad writing...)

I can tolerate that some people just don't like the Galaxy Class, TNG or whatever.
For this matter i can only speak for myself, i have payed some money to get my favourite (Star Trek) ship for Endgame purposes, but this ship i got never lived up to the expectations at all.
Not because it is a bad ship in the first place, only because the game developers MADE it a bad ship.

Personally:
It just makes me sad that this ship is the most unfitting singleplayer Cruiser in the game. Althrough it should be the exact opposite.
And btw, it just looks awesomly gorgeous.


Live long and prosper.

-> -> -> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- <- <-
T6 Guardian Class design / A 25th century Ambassador refit
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