Rihannsu
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,424
# 131
09-20-2012, 06:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fulleatherjacket View Post
This is not true.
Well it was almost true.

Quote:
Commander Donald Kaplan, the chief engineer of the USS Intrepid and a former Starfleet Academy classmate of La Forge's. Kaplan reported the power conversion level of the Intrepid's engines was slightly higher than those on the Enterprise, which prompted La Forge to improve those on the Enterprise.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Forc..._%28episode%29

Of course it still means that the much older Galaxy class Warp Core was as capable as the brand new state-of-the-art Intrepid Class Warp Core, needing only to be tweaked to reach the same output.

Edit:

It did received a new Warp Core as well as other updates in 2370 ("Phantasms"), the quote I just posted taken place in stardate 47310.2 and the "Phantasms" was in stardate 47225.7, will assume "Forces of Nature" taken place before "Phantasms", still makes it true but ultimate irreverent as the ship was upgraded later (to higher capabilities I would expect)

Quote:
Originally Posted by yreodred View Post
Even the defiants Warp Core had just a fraction of the power of a Galaxy classes Warp core.
The Defiant had a Class-7 Warp Drive that was extremely powerful for the ship size, one of the problem was the prototype was unable to handle it and nearly shook itself apart when the engines were tested at full power.

The Intrepid class had a Class 9 Warp Drive as for reference (no idea what the Galaxy Class had, as far I know it was never mentioned).

Last edited by f2pdrakron; 09-20-2012 at 07:05 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 132
09-20-2012, 07:49 PM
[quote=jim940;5778171]
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
like Fed vesrion of Tie fighters.

The Federation has dedicated fighters ...

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Fede...attack_fighter



That is sort of my point.



Humm no, such as in the push to get to Cardassia, the Galaxy's were used to take out the heavier Dominion ships while the rest pushed to break through the lines. And watching the battle, there was no "decisiveness" in the Galaxy's attack, they sit back and pound the bigger Dominion ships as the rest went into battle.



Not really, if you watch DS9, and I mean sit there and watch it Excelsiors kill with just as much ease as the Galaxy class ships when they fire.

No modern Navy, just like no future "space fleet" would bring old equipment into the fight unless they had no choice. Over all most weapon systems are a question of number not "power" as ships would be equipped with the maximum number of weapon systems it can support through its warp core's energy output at the best possible strength weapons available.

Just because the United States took the Iowa class battle ships to war 40 years after they were first built, doesn't mean they left them like that, instead they armed them with the same cruise missiles and weapon platforms that then current new production ships had.

Jim
Keep in mind the the Galaxy Class Enterprise was the only class of ship that was able to weather the attack from the borg cube and survive. All other classes, including the Excelsior classes were laid waste. This promted Starfleet to start building the remaining Galaxy frames because it has the best capability in extreme battle than the other classes ,while remaining very versatile ship.
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Posts: 1,618
# 133
09-20-2012, 08:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
Just because a ship is larger don't mean it runs low on power making many systems less than adequate. If you ever looked at a cut away diagram of a the Enterprise-D there are redundant power reactors all over that ship. Its not just using power from the warpcore. The Sauser section had two in front of the impulse engines and the star drive section had one in from of the one impulse engine. The reactors are fusion reactors so that means nuclear power. If you know physics, then you will know that nuclear fusion is the most powerful source of energy that we know of. It is what powers the sun. Your ship size is not enough to drain power out of that kind of source.
Thats not what i was saying. The galaxy had larger power systems but also a larger drain so the extra power available was not what people make it out to be. By comparison smaller ships with smaller warp cores never seemed to suffer from a lack of power so i put it to you that the amount of surplus energy remains constant in all vessels as a design feature and is not proportionate to the size of the power generator. Think of it like the engine in your car, you can have 2 vehicles with top speeds of 150mph and 0-60 times of 10 seconds but that does not mean that both cars have the same size engine since a lighter smaller vehicle does not need the same amount of power as a larger vehicle to achieve the desired performance. So you could end up with a 4 cylinder machine and an 8 cylinder machine with the same performance characteristics. Converslry you can take that 8 cylinder and jam it into the hole the 4 cylinder used and end up with somthing even faster. Like they did with the defiant.
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 216
# 134
09-20-2012, 09:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron View Post
Well it was almost true.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Forc..._%28episode%29

Of course it still means that the much older Galaxy class Warp Core was as capable as the brand new state-of-the-art Intrepid Class Warp Core, needing only to be tweaked to reach the same output.

Edit:

It did received a new Warp Core as well as other updates in 2370 ("Phantasms"), the quote I just posted taken place in stardate 47310.2 and the "Phantasms" was in stardate 47225.7, will assume "Forces of Nature" taken place before "Phantasms", still makes it true but ultimate irreverent as the ship was upgraded later (to higher capabilities I would expect)
They are not talking power output Drakon. They are talking conversion rates, meaning efficiency.

Clearly we are all watching different shows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim940
If you pay attention to DS9 specifically the Dominion War episodes, you see plenty of Miranda's fighting, more then Galaxy's. Why? In war you want a small ship armed relatively speaking to the teeth then a big ship with a large crew capacity.

When you do see the Galaxy's taking part in the action, its always as a tank, sit there and shoot the enemies big ships, as their shield systems and armor is strong enough to withstand the beating while they slowly break apart the enemy.
Whatever show I was watching showed a ship that was capable in every arena.
She was indeed wading in the fight in the Dominion Wars, she was not a sideline fighter.

Don't believe me? Likely.
But go ahead and watch DS9 episode Sacrifice of Angels.
Look at the fleet formations the Galaxy placement and the action of the Galaxy during the fight. She is at the fore and forward mid of the Fleet. Not the rear or center.

All throughout that fight the Galaxy class ships are seen even at the BACK of the enemy fleet engaging in a flanking maneuver.

Clearly a stand still and pot shot ship yes?

Also look at the first large ship shots fired by the Feds.
It is two Galaxy class ships that close in on a Cardassian ship and take pathetically small shots at it and destroy it on the spot.

Also I am willing to bet that no-one in this thread even knows what an SDE is in Star Trek nor how the Phaser Configuration affects an SDE or the meaning of an SDE on energy output.

If you did, then you would know that the Galaxy Class vessels by default, tied with the Nebula, have the highest phaser output period of any ship in the Fleet.

The ships in Star Trek are equipped with enough power to handle operation all systems at their peak and then some.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,424
# 135
09-20-2012, 10:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by veraticus View Post
They are not talking power output Drakon. They are talking conversion rates, meaning efficiency.

Clearly we are all watching different shows.
No clearly we watched the same, there are rarely any hard facts (we do get one about the Galaxy Power Core output but that is it) and when we do its almost always about something that will come up once and never again.

Heck you want a example of how things are? The Enterprise D Warp Core gets its output mentioned in Gigawatts, now the Voyager Warp Core gets its output in teradynes, granded we get a formula to what a dyne is.

Anyway ... there is this site because I am not doing that math.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWgigaper.html

Technical consistence? not in Trek ...

(Yes, its rant about it being inconsistent and made of LaLa science half the time)
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# 136
09-20-2012, 10:39 PM
the competition with the intrepid was a competition about efficiency. power conversion level, thats the ratio for how much you get out of what you put in, that has nothing to do with the actual power generation. the intrepid core is seriously tiny, no way they could take such a mature piece of equipment and cut its size down to a 5th and have it produce more power then the most powerful active core around in a galaxy class. nothing on a galaxy is old ether. we are talking about less then a decade more advanced here, and dealing with all mature technology. there will be no quantum leaps in power or ability in that short amount of time for weapons, computing, warp cores, anything. break thoughts every now and then? sure bioneural computing, that liquid deuterium core. that might have served a niche purpose in some way but it didn't replace more stranded cores or anything.


its hard to figure out warp cores, what physical factors mater, what % of the ships power is run off them, how much tallness has to do with anything. these are some conclusions i have reached

tallness- might have something to do with long duration use, the connie refit has a core that goes all the way up its neck, the miranda's is 3 of 4 decks high. there does not seem to be a massive difference in power output, and the miranda is a more short range in boarders ship compared to the connie being an explorer. the defient certainty had a not tall core, its a short range ship too.

size of crystal chamber- this proboly has the most to do with power output. the intrepid's core is pretty shrimpy and doesn't really have one. somehow they don't need one and can have mater and antimater mingling together behind future metal/glass. must give good efficiency at the least.

% of the ships power from the core- even though the galaxy has a huge warp core, it looks pretty shrimpy in the cut away. the sov's core is at least a bit taller if i recall correctly, again proboly for long range durability. the sov has at least 2 HUGE impulse fusion reactors as well, and in it's last showing apparently could put up an impressive offense and defense running just off the power they provide, wile moving at full combat speed. the galaxy class has 2, reactors that are at least as big as the 2 the sovereign has, though the sov's exhaust ports look huge, there are basically the same size as the ports on a galaxy's saucer, just at a steep angle. and the main impulse reactor is larger still, it likely has 1.5 to 2 times as much fusion generated power then a soverign has. and thats appropriate, the galaxy is more the twice the volume of a sov.

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/8...izecompare.jpg

the gal dwarfs the sov so hard its not even funny. 1 did not replace the other.


other conclusions- on some ships like the defiant, i think a totality of the ships power comes from the warp core, it simply wouldn't have room for impulse engines that doubled as fusion reactors too. thats why its core is so large, it runs everything. on ships like the galaxy or sov, the warp core proboly mainly just powers the warp drive, and is the secondary power to other systems. the sov's core is a bit larger because its the fastest ship, faster then the galaxy class. the core sizes corresponds with the flat out top speed of each.

regarding phasers, length of an array is what maters, not number of arrays. the galaxy's dorsal array has 200 emitters, each emitter acting like a capacitor and holding its own energy. when an array fires you see some or all of the emitters on the array transfer their energy sequentially toward the fireing location on the array, and the power of the shot depends on how many emitters took part of this charging effect.


so... ships with out arrays at all are in a bad way as far as phaser damage potential is concerned, wile the galaxy class is the king of phaser output. also king of torpedo output, being able to fire 10 torpedoes at a time from each bay, or 10 sequentially in a single second. thats just whats been observed, it could likely do more. the number of launchers on the sov that are much smaller and have much less burst potential can only hope to match a galaxy's torpedo salvo capacity, wile only having about half the phaser firepower, due to its longest array being much less then half the length of the longest galaxy array, but having more powerful emitters. even if the type 12 could contribute twice the energy as a type 10, the galaxy would still out gun the sov. on a technology as mature as phaser emitters, theres no way in hell the type 12 can channel twice the energy as a type 10.

and why should the sovereign be more powerful then the galaxy? the sov isn't even in the same league size wise, and wile a higher % of the sov is proboly devoted to tactical capability then a galaxy class is, its still less then half the size of a galaxy. its the size of the galaxy that allows for such massive phaser arrays as well, thats not all wasted space tactically. a ship 10 years newer but less then half the size is not going to be more powerful, thats just preposterous, and thats assuming the design thats 10 years older hasn't been constantly upgraded.

remember, in 3 full array phaser discharges, the enterprise D was able to disintegrate as much volume of a borg cube as there is volume of a galaxy class star ship. the saucer section would have fit nicely in one of those craters. but then thanks to plot railroading it cant obliterate a single bop or a flight of bug ships in a single shot or 3. see all the inconsistency for yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d734...7F38EA72A03613

if a galaxy opened fire like this in every battle it lost, we never would have seen it lose on screen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=H_XbWq49vUM
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,618
# 137
09-20-2012, 11:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
the competition with the intrepid was a competition about efficiency. power conversion level, thats the ratio for how much you get out of what you put in, that has nothing to do with the actual power generation. the intrepid core is seriously tiny, no way they could take such a mature piece of equipment and cut its size down to a 5th and have it produce more power then the most powerful active core around in a galaxy class. nothing on a galaxy is old ether. we are talking about less then a decade more advanced here, and dealing with all mature technology. there will be no quantum leaps in power or ability in that short amount of time for weapons, computing, warp cores, anything. break thoughts every now and then? sure bioneural computing, that liquid deuterium core. that might have served a niche purpose in some way but it didn't replace more stranded cores or anything.


its hard to figure out warp cores, what physical factors mater, what % of the ships power is run off them, how much tallness has to do with anything. these are some conclusions i have reached

tallness- might have something to do with long duration use, the connie refit has a core that goes all the way up its neck, the miranda's is 3 of 4 decks high. there does not seem to be a massive difference in power output, and the miranda is a more short range in boarders ship compared to the connie being an explorer. the defient certainty had a not tall core, its a short range ship too.

size of crystal chamber- this proboly has the most to do with power output. the intrepid's core is pretty shrimpy and doesn't really have one. somehow they don't need one and can have mater and antimater mingling together behind future metal/glass. must give good efficiency at the least.

% of the ships power from the core- even though the galaxy has a huge warp core, it looks pretty shrimpy in the cut away. the sov's core is at least a bit taller if i recall correctly, again proboly for long range durability. the sov has at least 2 HUGE impulse fusion reactors as well, and in it's last showing apparently could put up an impressive offense and defense running just off the power they provide, wile moving at full combat speed. the galaxy class has 2, reactors that are at least as big as the 2 the sovereign has, though the sov's exhaust ports look huge, there are basically the same size as the ports on a galaxy's saucer, just at a steep angle. and the main impulse reactor is larger still, it likely has 1.5 to 2 times as much fusion generated power then a soverign has. and thats appropriate, the galaxy is more the twice the volume of a sov.

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/8...izecompare.jpg

the gal dwarfs the sov so hard its not even funny. 1 did not replace the other.


other conclusions- on some ships like the defiant, i think a totality of the ships power comes from the warp core, it simply wouldn't have room for impulse engines that doubled as fusion reactors too. thats why its core is so large, it runs everything. on ships like the galaxy or sov, the warp core proboly mainly just powers the warp drive, and is the secondary power to other systems. the sov's core is a bit larger because its the fastest ship, faster then the galaxy class. the core sizes corresponds with the flat out top speed of each.

regarding phasers, length of an array is what maters, not number of arrays. the galaxy's dorsal array has 200 emitters, each emitter acting like a capacitor and holding its own energy. when an array fires you see some or all of the emitters on the array transfer their energy sequentially toward the fireing location on the array, and the power of the shot depends on how many emitters took part of this charging effect.


so... ships with out arrays at all are in a bad way as far as phaser damage potential is concerned, wile the galaxy class is the king of phaser output. also king of torpedo output, being able to fire 10 torpedoes at a time from each bay, or 10 sequentially in a single second. thats just whats been observed, it could likely do more. the number of launchers on the sov that are much smaller and have much less burst potential can only hope to match a galaxy's torpedo salvo capacity, wile only having about half the phaser firepower, due to its longest array being much less then half the length of the longest galaxy array, but having more powerful emitters. even if the type 12 could contribute twice the energy as a type 10, the galaxy would still out gun the sov. on a technology as mature as phaser emitters, theres no way in hell the type 12 can channel twice the energy as a type 10.

and why should the sovereign be more powerful then the galaxy? the sov isn't even in the same league size wise, and wile a higher % of the sov is proboly devoted to tactical capability then a galaxy class is, its still less then half the size of a galaxy. its the size of the galaxy that allows for such massive phaser arrays as well, thats not all wasted space tactically. a ship 10 years newer but less then half the size is not going to be more powerful, thats just preposterous, and thats assuming the design thats 10 years older hasn't been constantly upgraded.

remember, in 3 full array phaser discharges, the enterprise D was able to disintegrate as much volume of a borg cube as there is volume of a galaxy class star ship. the saucer section would have fit nicely in one of those craters. but then thanks to plot railroading it cant obliterate a single bop or a flight of bug ships in a single shot or 3. see all the inconsistency for yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d734...7F38EA72A03613

if a galaxy opened fire like this in every battle it lost, we never would have seen it lose on screen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=H_XbWq49vUM
I would just like to point out 2 things. First that its difficult to base any conclusion on what we saw on screen since it varys so much. There are times when the enterprise simply obliterates a target and times when the target simply ignores it. Just in that first video we see how the firepower varied from impressive to innefectual.

Second size isn't everything as most technology tends to get smaller as it advances the origional enterprises warp core took up the entire upper third of the secondary hull. Not saying your wrong but consider that a smaller emitter array made up of more efficient emitters may be equaly as powerful as the longer array. And since the real damage from a directed energy beam happens over time maybe the newer arrays are set up for longer duration charges transfering its energy to the target for a longer duration resulting in more energy on target. We do tend to see the D firing in shorter bursts than the E. Altho this may merely be a byproduct of special effects budgets since we also see longer firing cycles during the dominion war. Which you could argue are refit versions not really comparable to the D but the the D would have had those upgrades at that time anyway.
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abriham Lincoln
Career Officer
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Posts: 4,032
# 138
09-21-2012, 12:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim940 View Post
And the smaller Intrepid Class warp cores outputted more power then the Galaxy's by default, and that the Galaxy's warp core had to be modified to get it up to where the Intrepid was. And this is something mentioned in TNG, not Voyager.

So again, you fail to see that size =/= power in Star Trek.

Jim
Not really.
They talked about efficiency.
That means how much power is lost between the matter antimatter reaction and the actual use of that power in the engines.
That's why they measured it in percentage not in absolute numbers.
Output has nothing to do with this.

An example of this would be some of those highly efficient ecodrives.
They are efficient because they get the most out of a specific amount of fuel.
But that does not mean it's going to provide as much HP as a big 8 cylinder engine.
What they said in the episode is basically that they managed to improve the engine of a 4,500,000 tons starship wiht a crew of over 1,000 to be as efficeint as the ecodrive of a 700,000 ton starship with a crew of 150.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 139
09-21-2012, 12:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
remember, in 3 full array phaser discharges, the enterprise D was able to disintegrate as much volume of a borg cube as there is volume of a galaxy class star ship. the saucer section would have fit nicely in one of those craters. but then thanks to plot railroading it cant obliterate a single bop or a flight of bug ships in a single shot or 3. see all the inconsistency for yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d734...7F38EA72A03613
You cannot fathom the immensity of the crap not given by the galaxies at 3:35. Direct quote from the two Captains of those ships. "Galor class on our Port bow. Beating the crap out of our weak little buddies. @#$% SLAP THAT MOFO NAO!!! Also tell the other Galaxy underneath us to open up, just in case he can slap us back. GO!!!!" "You want US to open up on that? Shoots." 5 seconds later... "EAT SPACE YOU CARDASSIAN @#$%^!!!!"

Alas, the galaxy class is not that powerful.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
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# 140
09-21-2012, 02:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by disposeableh3r0 View Post
I would just like to point out 2 things. First that its difficult to base any conclusion on what we saw on screen since it varys so much. There are times when the enterprise simply obliterates a target and times when the target simply ignores it. Just in that first video we see how the firepower varied from impressive to innefectual.
i rate the ship based off its best showing, not the other times were the crew was to incompetent to spam the space bar.


Quote:
Originally Posted by disposeableh3r0 View Post
Second size isn't everything as most technology tends to get smaller as it advances the origional enterprises warp core took up the entire upper third of the secondary hull. Not saying your wrong but consider that a smaller emitter array made up of more efficient emitters may be equaly as powerful as the longer array. And since the real damage from a directed energy beam happens over time maybe the newer arrays are set up for longer duration charges transfering its energy to the target for a longer duration resulting in more energy on target. We do tend to see the D firing in shorter bursts than the E. Altho this may merely be a byproduct of special effects budgets since we also see longer firing cycles during the dominion war. Which you could argue are refit versions not really comparable to the D but the the D would have had those upgrades at that time anyway.
size in about 90% of everything actually. it gives basically every advantage you could imagine. larger power generators, more room for bigger weapon emplacements, more surface to stretch long arrays across, more redundancy capacity, more damage soak, more presence, more everything. it just cant zip around as well.

not that any ship with a phaser array needs to, anything any point on an array has line of sight with, it can hit with a full power shot. arrays are OP, phaser cannons are a compromise. they are used in applications were they cant place a huge array on a ship because its too small. being small, it should be maneuverable enough for the low fireing arc to be less of a problem. but as an added bonus cannons can deliver more frequencies at a time to borg targets for an enhanced chance to damage it.

in cannon, most beam impacts last only slightly longer then it takes to initially hit the target, to deliver the totality of the energy all at once, as apposed to shining a flash light on them over a long period. just like in game, burst is whats important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
You cannot fathom the immensity of the crap not given by the galaxies at 3:35. Direct quote from the two Captains of those ships. "Galor class on our Port bow. Beating the crap out of our weak little buddies. @#$% SLAP THAT MOFO NAO!!! Also tell the other Galaxy underneath us to open up, just in case he can slap us back. GO!!!!" "You want US to open up on that? Shoots." 5 seconds later... "EAT SPACE YOU CARDASSIAN @#$%^!!!!"

Alas, the galaxy class is not that powerful.
they were firing shots only using a fraction of the emitters too, it looked like they were just firing to disable, causing core breaches in such a densely packed battle would be... counter intuitive.

there was that war between the federation and the cardasians at the start of tng, only mentioned later in the series because the D was never a part of it. then the galaxy and nebula class started showing up on the front lines and the war suddenly ended, fancy that.

alas its not powerful in game? yes, its the least accurately portrayed ship in the game bar none. not only does it have the least firepower, its the least flexible in its station setup. when in canon its the most powerful, and most modular.

alas its not that powerful in canon? well based off its best showing and how phaser arrays work, it has no peer in starfleet, even up to the end of canon at the end of nemisis.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus

Last edited by dontdrunkimshoot; 09-21-2012 at 02:44 AM.
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