Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,632
# 141
09-21-2012, 03:41 AM
Maybe there should be a weapons modifier per ship like the shield modifier.
Then each ship could simbly carry a modifier for each type of weapon.

So an escort may have a 1.1 cannons 0.9 beams 1.0 torpedo.
While a cruiser would have a 1.1 beams 0.9 cannona 1.0 torpedo.

Then it would be simpler to attach better modifiers to specific ships for whatever reason.
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abriham Lincoln
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,452
# 142
09-21-2012, 06:34 AM
Thank you for you excellent postings, dontdrunkimshoot

Escpecially valuable to point out that the Sovereign is NOT supposed the Galaxies succesor, though the Enterprise-E was one. It's a completely different ship with a completely different field of use. (As Picard asks his crew if anyone remembers the time they were explorers).
-> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- -> Click if you prefer the old forum design! <-
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 750
# 143
09-21-2012, 07:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron View Post
Well it was almost true.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Forc..._%28episode%29

Of course it still means that the much older Galaxy class Warp Core was as capable as the brand new state-of-the-art Intrepid Class Warp Core, needing only to be tweaked to reach the same output.
Yeah, you don't know what you're talking about either. The screen evidence showed was a friendly competition in power conversion efficiency between chief engineers on different ships. That does not mean the Intrepid's warp core is more powerful than the Galaxy class warp core. Do you know what power conversion efficiency is? I don't. But I do know that it's not the same thing as total power output.

And by the way, Geordi actually beat the Intrepid's stats in the episode and made the Enterprise's power conversion levels better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron View Post
The Defiant had a Class-7 Warp Drive that was extremely powerful for the ship size, one of the problem was the prototype was unable to handle it and nearly shook itself apart when the engines were tested at full power.

The Intrepid class had a Class 9 Warp Drive as for reference (no idea what the Galaxy Class had, as far I know it was never mentioned).
And you don't know how warp drive classification works. It's just some technobabble description the writers of the show came up with. A "Class 7" warp drive might refer to a system designed for especially small ships like the Defiant to allow it to hit the same warp speed as bigger ships - its total power output might be a lot for a tiny ship but not enough for a big one. You don't know. A "Class 9" warp drive might refer to the most advanced system available, but so what? An older ship design can be refitted with newer systems including the engines.

Cryptic should make the Galaxy class as good on the offense as a Sovereign or Tac Odyssey, and nobody has ever provided evidence that this should not be so.

Last edited by fulleatherjacket; 09-21-2012 at 07:10 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,835
# 144
09-21-2012, 07:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
if a galaxy opened fire like this in every battle it lost, we never would have seen it lose on screen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=H_XbWq49vUM
Just imagine that 20 year old BoP in Generations getting annihilated by a salvo like this.
(just imagine ST:8 with a Enterprise -D Enterprise - D entering the battle of sector 001, how breathtaking that fly by on the defiant would have looked like. )


Another thing:
Yes technology tends to get smaller but not so fast, so ten year old Galaxy Class Warp core could be build 1/5 of its size and to be expected to have still the same capacity, i don't buy that.
And even if that where the case don't you think that if such a new genreation of warp cores wouldn't be installed into a Galaxy Class as well ?
(just a bigger version of that previous mentioned warp core, with again a much higher power outout, than a smaller one)
The same thing goes with weapons and any other technical device.

About efficiency:
When fighting a huge enemy ship, like a Borg cube, it doesn't matter if your runabout works at 100% efficiency and still doing no damage.



Live long and prosper.

-> -> -> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- <- <-
T6 Guardian Class design / A 25th century Ambassador refit

Last edited by yreodred; 09-21-2012 at 07:07 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 750
# 145
09-21-2012, 07:22 AM
And I'm really getting sick of the same stupid argument from people that "Older tech must always be slower and weaker".

Newsflash: Newer does not always equal bigger or better or stronger or faster.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,632
# 146
09-21-2012, 07:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fulleatherjacket View Post
(snip)

Cryptic should make the Galaxy class as good on the offense as a Sovereign or Tac Odyssey, and nobody has ever provided evidence that this should not be so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by angrytarg View Post
Thank you for you excellent postings, dontdrunkimshoot

Escpecially valuable to point out that the Sovereign is NOT supposed the Galaxies succesor, though the Enterprise-E was one. It's a completely different ship with a completely different field of use. (As Picard asks his crew if anyone remembers the time they were explorers).
Thats a good reason why not^

Quote:
Originally Posted by yreodred View Post


Another thing:
Yes technology tends to get smaller but not so fast, so ten year old Galaxy Class Warp core could be build 1/5 of its size and to be expected to have still the same capacity, i don't buy that.
And even if that where the case don't you think that if such a new genreation of warp cores wouldn't be installed into a Galaxy Class as well ?
(just a bigger version of that previous mentioned warp core, with again a much higher power outout, than a smaller one)
The same thing goes with weapons and any other technical device. (snip)

Live long and prosper.
My Iphone has more computing power than most home pc's had 10 years ago. And it fits in my pocket.
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abriham Lincoln
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 750
# 147
09-21-2012, 08:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by disposeableh3r0 View Post
My Iphone has more computing power than most home pc's had 10 years ago. And it fits in my pocket.
You're comparing a personal handheld computer to a MATTER/ANTIMATTER REACTOR. You might as well say a tiny nuclear reactor designed today that could fit in a phonebooth could produce as much energy as Three Mile Island.

Don't be so willfully daft.

Last edited by fulleatherjacket; 09-21-2012 at 08:33 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,835
# 148
09-21-2012, 08:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by disposeableh3r0 View Post
Thats a good reason why not^



My Iphone has more computing power than most home pc's had 10 years ago. And it fits in my pocket.
Iphones and Warp Cores are not the same.


Live long and prosper.

-> -> -> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- <- <-
T6 Guardian Class design / A 25th century Ambassador refit
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 149
09-21-2012, 08:34 AM
You're still at this?
And with "arguments" getting worse all the time?
Geeez ...

'Couple things:
1) All fluff/canon/fanon arguments are VOID!
Ships were as powerful or as weak in any given episode as the writer needed them for his plot. There never was an underlying system to it, and any attempt to argue there is one just makes you look silly.

2) The ONLY thing that count here is game balance!
Ships in this game give up one thing to achieve something else. DPS vs tankiness vs mobility vs special powers. That's the whole of if.
The total amount of these abilities is determined by a ship's tier rating, which gives it a pool of powers and abilities to distribute - from the lowly tier 1 miranda to current tier 5, tier 5/store and tier 5.5 fleet and lockbox ships.
The Galaxy-R is the T5/Store ship with most of its balance assigned to tanking. It fills a role here. Other ships already fill other rolls.
You can complain all day long that the Galaxy was chosen for this role and not another - it's pointless. And you KNEW what you were getting when you bought that ship, didn't you?

3) Yes, in a more realistic approach, bigger ships would have more firepower AND better tanking stats than a small one. The reason that it's not that way in STO is, again: game balance! Cryptic wants you to be able to fly all ships (actually: to buy all ships), so they can't have some be overly powerful and others totally useless. The current system is a compromise to make it possible.
Sure, other games have done a different approach. In EvE, a bigger ship is actually better than a smaller ship, ships are not balanced - but if you lose your ship in EvE, it's gone forever ... and that's balancing it out.
Would you rather prefer buying a new ship every time you get killed? I mean, 'pretty sure Cyrptic would like the sales ...

4) Cruisers are fine! The Galaxy is fine!
There really is no problem with Cruisers in this game, if you compare capabilities among ship types. They're pretty well balanced.
What's really the problem is the lack of content that actually CHALLENGES these ships. We're running content that's balanced around T4/Mk VII to T5/Mk X ships, and even then, balanced around players of average abilities, and groups with non-optimized setup.
Of course, that means that a good group of tanky dps can tear through content without much need for a dedicated tank - which is the cruiser's role in PvE. THAT is why Cruisers don't feel as important or powerful as they actually are.
Of course, if Cryptic re-balanced content accordingly, or even just released new content at higher difficulty ... I'd bet that most of you would whine just as loud as you're whining now, it'd just be about "impossible content" ...

5) FL2FP!
If you can't kill things in a cruiser, you FAIL! Hard. You SUCK! Brontosaur balls!
Even a simple Star Cruiser with all Mk X blues can tear through anything this game currently has to offer as opposition.
The Galaxy-R has even less of a problem.
The Galaxy-R's only problem is people who can't play.
People who complain about doing no damage, people who manage to lose 1v1 vs an equally geared Escort, people who answer with their mistaken view of canon to game-balance questions, and use even worse mistaken views of game-balance to justify outrageous demands.
FL2FP!

You can go back to arguing TNG vs. DS9 episodes now ... though I'd guess if you keep doing it a mod will close this down sooner or later.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,452
# 150
09-21-2012, 08:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by disposeableh3r0 View Post
Thats a good reason why not^

Actually, it is. The Sovereign is a "weaker" tactical cruiser (in terms of firepower) but is instead more agile, able to keep up with the lighter cruiser escorts. The Galaxy, even though used in exploration (and we have laid out that "exploration" means "facing whatever bad you may encounter in deep space by YOURSELF"), should feature more firepower but be actually less agile and slower in sub-warp.

EDIT: But I also agree with flekh here. He pointed out the main problem: STO is a relatively simple MMO, relying on the fact that everyone can buy and use every ship and thus, all of them have to be "equal". What "we" need is simply another game, in this game there won't be any canonical ST feel ever. That still means it wouldn't hurt giving her a universal ensign slot, wouldn't it?
-> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- -> Click if you prefer the old forum design! <-
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh

Last edited by angrytarg; 09-21-2012 at 08:43 AM.
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