Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,825
# 151
09-21-2012, 09:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by angrytarg View Post
Actually, it is. The Sovereign is a "weaker" tactical cruiser (in terms of firepower) but is instead more agile, able to keep up with the lighter cruiser escorts. The Galaxy, even though used in exploration (and we have laid out that "exploration" means "facing whatever bad you may encounter in deep space by YOURSELF"), should feature more firepower but be actually less agile and slower in sub-warp.

EDIT: But I also agree with flekh here. He pointed out the main problem: STO is a relatively simple MMO, relying on the fact that everyone can buy and use every ship and thus, all of them have to be "equal". What "we" need is simply another game, in this game there won't be any canonical ST feel ever. That still means it wouldn't hurt giving her a universal ensign slot, wouldn't it?
I couldn't have said it better.

Cryptics ship system is just a simple MMO game mechanic.

The only thing they can do is to "bend" it, so Star Trek ships fit in somehow.
Especially the Galaxy Class doesn't fit really into this system, because it is a multi purpose ship. So the best thing is to give it something to make it as versatile as possible (but without breaking the game balance).
Now that there is the Regent Class which is having a Lt.Cmdr universal, my idea was to give the Galaxy class the same (maybe remove its lt. sc as a tradeoff), just to reflect its versality.
the Gama balance surely isn't broken because of the Regent Class, as it wouldn't be if the Galaxy would get a similar BOFF layout IMHO.



Live long and prosper.

-> -> -> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- <- <-
T6 Guardian Class design / A 25th century Ambassador refit
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,351
# 152
09-21-2012, 11:27 AM
Lets cut to the chase, Yreodred, what is you Galaxy's build? Maybe we all can do something to make it more fun.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,818
# 153
09-21-2012, 12:15 PM
The Icon ship of the Federation for a great number of
Fans. A battleship

Cannot protect Kang on Elite

Can't tank and kill a cube at Kittomere Elite I'n a reasonable amount
Of time doesn't have the firepower to take out the generators and
Transformer then the gate to win the optional

It doesn't have the firepower to be worth it's team slot
On any Elite STF

One of the worst turn rates I'n the game only makes
These problems worse

Some say the ship is fine
I disagree with them 100%

It should be one of the best selling and common
Ships I'n the game but it isn't .

The only reason we see as many as we do is
Because of loyal fans

What you don't see are Gal Rs on Elite STF missions
Because they can't carry there weight and everyone
Knows it.

The ship needs more than just a turn rate buff
It needs a general refit to be the ship it is soposed to be.
Jellico....Engineer.....Stargazer KDF Tac
Saphire.. Science.....Ko'el Rom Kdf Tac
Leva........Tactical.....Mailu KDF Sci

JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 154
09-21-2012, 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by disposeableh3r0 View Post
Thats not what i was saying. The galaxy had larger power systems but also a larger drain so the extra power available was not what people make it out to be. By comparison smaller ships with smaller warp cores never seemed to suffer from a lack of power so i put it to you that the amount of surplus energy remains constant in all vessels as a design feature and is not proportionate to the size of the power generator. Think of it like the engine in your car, you can have 2 vehicles with top speeds of 150mph and 0-60 times of 10 seconds but that does not mean that both cars have the same size engine since a lighter smaller vehicle does not need the same amount of power as a larger vehicle to achieve the desired performance. So you could end up with a 4 cylinder machine and an 8 cylinder machine with the same performance characteristics. Converslry you can take that 8 cylinder and jam it into the hole the 4 cylinder used and end up with somthing even faster. Like they did with the defiant.
I can answer that question very well. My car is a 4,100lb older car. I put a 650 horsepower Engine in my car and now I'm beating bikes in races. The sports bikes only weigh a few hundred pounds and would have an advantage on the take off, but my car out accelerated them and surpassed their tops speeds of 186 mph. I put a well powered drivetrain in my car so horse power to weight ratio would not be a problem when competing with newer lighter cars.

The same thing goes for the Galaxy power. The power is capable to of handling size many times its size. Its the only type of ship that has been shown capable of sealing subspace rifts that are enormous. (Enterprise-D, USS Challenger) Ref: All Good Things, Memory Alpha.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,089
# 155
09-21-2012, 01:08 PM
the core in the defiant is more likely its the core out of a saber class or maybe a steamrunner. thats still a huge core for a ship that small. but, the core in the defient may very well be galaxy class levels of power, im becoming more and more convinced that in large ships the core is just a secondary power source and mainly just runs the warp drive. on smaller ships that don't have room for large fusion reactors to accompany the impulse drive coil, its likely they are just fed by the plasma generated by the warp core, like everything else on the ship.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 156
09-21-2012, 01:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
the competition with the intrepid was a competition about efficiency. power conversion level, thats the ratio for how much you get out of what you put in, that has nothing to do with the actual power generation. the intrepid core is seriously tiny, no way they could take such a mature piece of equipment and cut its size down to a 5th and have it produce more power then the most powerful active core around in a galaxy class. nothing on a galaxy is old ether. we are talking about less then a decade more advanced here, and dealing with all mature technology. there will be no quantum leaps in power or ability in that short amount of time for weapons, computing, warp cores, anything. break thoughts every now and then? sure bioneural computing, that liquid deuterium core. that might have served a niche purpose in some way but it didn't replace more stranded cores or anything.


its hard to figure out warp cores, what physical factors mater, what % of the ships power is run off them, how much tallness has to do with anything. these are some conclusions i have reached

tallness- might have something to do with long duration use, the connie refit has a core that goes all the way up its neck, the miranda's is 3 of 4 decks high. there does not seem to be a massive difference in power output, and the miranda is a more short range in boarders ship compared to the connie being an explorer. the defient certainty had a not tall core, its a short range ship too.

size of crystal chamber- this proboly has the most to do with power output. the intrepid's core is pretty shrimpy and doesn't really have one. somehow they don't need one and can have mater and antimater mingling together behind future metal/glass. must give good efficiency at the least.

% of the ships power from the core- even though the galaxy has a huge warp core, it looks pretty shrimpy in the cut away. the sov's core is at least a bit taller if i recall correctly, again proboly for long range durability. the sov has at least 2 HUGE impulse fusion reactors as well, and in it's last showing apparently could put up an impressive offense and defense running just off the power they provide, wile moving at full combat speed. the galaxy class has 2, reactors that are at least as big as the 2 the sovereign has, though the sov's exhaust ports look huge, there are basically the same size as the ports on a galaxy's saucer, just at a steep angle. and the main impulse reactor is larger still, it likely has 1.5 to 2 times as much fusion generated power then a soverign has. and thats appropriate, the galaxy is more the twice the volume of a sov.

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/8...izecompare.jpg

the gal dwarfs the sov so hard its not even funny. 1 did not replace the other.


other conclusions- on some ships like the defiant, i think a totality of the ships power comes from the warp core, it simply wouldn't have room for impulse engines that doubled as fusion reactors too. thats why its core is so large, it runs everything. on ships like the galaxy or sov, the warp core proboly mainly just powers the warp drive, and is the secondary power to other systems. the sov's core is a bit larger because its the fastest ship, faster then the galaxy class. the core sizes corresponds with the flat out top speed of each.

regarding phasers, length of an array is what maters, not number of arrays. the galaxy's dorsal array has 200 emitters, each emitter acting like a capacitor and holding its own energy. when an array fires you see some or all of the emitters on the array transfer their energy sequentially toward the fireing location on the array, and the power of the shot depends on how many emitters took part of this charging effect.


so... ships with out arrays at all are in a bad way as far as phaser damage potential is concerned, wile the galaxy class is the king of phaser output. also king of torpedo output, being able to fire 10 torpedoes at a time from each bay, or 10 sequentially in a single second. thats just whats been observed, it could likely do more. the number of launchers on the sov that are much smaller and have much less burst potential can only hope to match a galaxy's torpedo salvo capacity, wile only having about half the phaser firepower, due to its longest array being much less then half the length of the longest galaxy array, but having more powerful emitters. even if the type 12 could contribute twice the energy as a type 10, the galaxy would still out gun the sov. on a technology as mature as phaser emitters, theres no way in hell the type 12 can channel twice the energy as a type 10.

and why should the sovereign be more powerful then the galaxy? the sov isn't even in the same league size wise, and wile a higher % of the sov is proboly devoted to tactical capability then a galaxy class is, its still less then half the size of a galaxy. its the size of the galaxy that allows for such massive phaser arrays as well, thats not all wasted space tactically. a ship 10 years newer but less then half the size is not going to be more powerful, thats just preposterous, and thats assuming the design thats 10 years older hasn't been constantly upgraded.

remember, in 3 full array phaser discharges, the enterprise D was able to disintegrate as much volume of a borg cube as there is volume of a galaxy class star ship. the saucer section would have fit nicely in one of those craters. but then thanks to plot railroading it cant obliterate a single bop or a flight of bug ships in a single shot or 3. see all the inconsistency for yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d734...7F38EA72A03613

if a galaxy opened fire like this in every battle it lost, we never would have seen it lose on screen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=H_XbWq49vUM
you couldn't of said it better.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 157
09-21-2012, 01:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by disposeableh3r0 View Post
I would just like to point out 2 things. First that its difficult to base any conclusion on what we saw on screen since it varys so much. There are times when the enterprise simply obliterates a target and times when the target simply ignores it. Just in that first video we see how the firepower varied from impressive to innefectual.

Second size isn't everything as most technology tends to get smaller as it advances the origional enterprises warp core took up the entire upper third of the secondary hull. Not saying your wrong but consider that a smaller emitter array made up of more efficient emitters may be equaly as powerful as the longer array. And since the real damage from a directed energy beam happens over time maybe the newer arrays are set up for longer duration charges transfering its energy to the target for a longer duration resulting in more energy on target. We do tend to see the D firing in shorter bursts than the E. Altho this may merely be a byproduct of special effects budgets since we also see longer firing cycles during the dominion war. Which you could argue are refit versions not really comparable to the D but the the D would have had those upgrades at that time anyway.
If you look at the size of the constitution next to the Galaxy and watch Probert's interview on "Star Trek Evolution," then you will see the size of the Enterprise-A warp core, also thinking about the size of the Galaxy's warp core. Keep in mind that the Galaxy has 42 decks.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 158
09-21-2012, 01:38 PM
In this game they tried to give equal power to all ships with the sizes making the difference in performance. In fact to keep this game legit, they need to make things more complicated than that. Ship sizes should dictate to what equipment is shared between ship classes. Also weapon DPS needs to be more balance than current. The reason why so many people rush to get cannons is because beams are made to be weak in this game. That can't be so because in the shows, they have exact same results.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,089
# 159
09-21-2012, 02:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
you couldn't of said it better.
its so nice to find a thread thats not full of defiant, prometheus and sovereign super fanboys for once. they can never accept that their favorite isn't the best at everything, and jump all over everything i posted trying fruitlessly to poke holes in it. ive yet to see any coherent argument that anything i posted is off base, when ever i make a post like that.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 160
09-21-2012, 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yreodred View Post
I couldn't have said it better.

Cryptics ship system is just a simple MMO game mechanic.

The only thing they can do is to "bend" it, so Star Trek ships fit in somehow.
Especially the Galaxy Class doesn't fit really into this system, because it is a multi purpose ship. So the best thing is to give it something to make it as versatile as possible (but without breaking the game balance).
Now that there is the Regent Class which is having a Lt.Cmdr universal, my idea was to give the Galaxy class the same (maybe remove its lt. sc as a tradeoff), just to reflect its versality.
the Gama balance surely isn't broken because of the Regent Class, as it wouldn't be if the Galaxy would get a similar BOFF layout IMHO.



Live long and prosper.
It's always fun if the people make proposals or even demand don't even have the slightest clue about the game they're playing. YOU ... you are a prime example!

All T5(+) ships except for the BoPs have the same basic pattern of bridge officers: Cmdr, LCdr, 2xLt, Ens. BoPs lose the Ens slot for their ability to field universal slots, along with a massive reduction in hull and shields. 'Only exception is the Fleet Ning'tao, which has one of its Lt slots updated to LCdr, at the price of having less shields and hull than a shuttle.
That's basics.
And you're asking/demanding to get an LCdr in exchange for an Ens or LT???
And call that not overpowered?

Not only that, you're asking for an LCdr universal!
The only cruisers at the moment fielding a universal LCdr are the Odyssey and the Bortasqu' - and both pay for it by being even worse bricks than the Galaxy-R (well, the Ody can work around that, by buying the 50$ version of the C-store. The Bortasqu' is just bad).
The only other cruiser able to field a LCdr Sci, which is usually considered the holy grail of cruisers, btw, is the Fleet Corsair (which still gets overshadowed by the Fleet Tor'Kaht, so you'll rarely see one of those, even though it's a damn good ship).
And you call that demand not overpowered?

Oh, and ... the regent has an Lt uni, not a LCdr ...
An Lt uni, btw, that in 99.9999999% of cases will just end up as Sci, as the ship has no other Sci slots, and running without HE in PvP is suicide, and in PvP ... well, TSS/PH/HE are still too strong to go without.
Basically, the Regent's uni slot is a noob-trap.

And to kill your "whaaaaw, Galaxy is supposed to be versatile, whaaaaw"-line:
What makes the Galaxy versatile in the show is the fact it's carrying around what's basically a small town: the whole saucer section is made up of laboratories, workshops, storage space, community facilities, meeting rooms, luxury quarters ... and civilian and semi-civilian personal to make use of them.
Its versatatily is based on bringing the right people to the right place at the right time. NOT by some magic ability to transform into a Battle Cruiser.
Just to the contrary, actually: the whole ship is designed to keep that small flying town save! It's tanky. A fortress. Not an assault cruiser!
'Seems you didn't even watch the show you're using for your arguments ...

TL;DR: You're a noob with entitlement issues and no clue about the game or the show. And this whole thread is a travesty.

Last edited by flekh; 09-21-2012 at 02:55 PM.
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