Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,090
# 241
09-26-2012, 03:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by disposeableh3r0 View Post
Actualy I alyays figured the federation would use more support craft VS fighters. Also I always wondered why there are no combat drones. They have the technology now to remotely pilot a drome thousands of miles away. Why can't they do it in the 25th century?
Some middle eastern country took down a drone with fairly simple tech recently. They are mostly just useful at recon if the enemy has good tech.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,460
# 242
09-26-2012, 03:55 AM
Main reason is that in Star Trek combat (originally), Cruisers would exchange salvos over hundreds of thousands of kilometers (stated several times on screen). Your small craft would be space dust before they entered visual range with anything and even then ships are fitted with 360 degree phaser arrays.

Basically, Star Trek does not offer what it needs to employ "space fighters" and it was never about those. Even when they got those in late DS9 they were a distraction not a capable fighting squad. STO introduced it because every sci-fi universe out there takes the wing commander approach and the navy is cool anyways and people want present day naval battles in space.

That's the short version
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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,632
# 243
09-26-2012, 03:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
Some middle eastern country took down a drone with fairly simple tech recently. They are mostly just useful at recon if the enemy has good tech.
And its easy enough to take out a swarm of fighters. And iran got lucky I hear the one they got was malfunctioning which is why they even knew it was there.

Point was if we can do it now why couldn't we do it better in 400 years? And if the drones have the same attrition rate or worse than a manned fighter it's still better since you get to keep your skilled fighter pilot.
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abriham Lincoln
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,632
# 244
09-26-2012, 04:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by angrytarg View Post
Main reason is that in Star Trek combat (originally), Cruisers would exchange salvos over hundreds of thousands of kilometers (stated several times on screen). Your small craft would be space dust before they entered visual range with anything and even then ships are fitted with 360 degree phaser arrays.

Basically, Star Trek does not offer what it needs to employ "space fighters" and it was never about those. Even when they got those in late DS9 they were a distraction not a capable fighting squad. STO introduced it because every sci-fi universe out there takes the wing commander approach and the navy is cool anyways and people want present day naval battles in space.

That's the short version
Probably right but there are soft canon sources for the federation having carriers. Besides having atmo capability would at least make them useful to support ground ops. The federation may be dedicated to peace but they aren't stupid. I'm sure there are marines and whatnot just incase.
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abriham Lincoln
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,460
# 245
09-26-2012, 04:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by disposeableh3r0 View Post
Probably right but there are soft canon sources for the federation having carriers. Besides having atmo capability would at least make them useful to support ground ops. The federation may be dedicated to peace but they aren't stupid. I'm sure there are marines and whatnot just incase.
In soft canon there is so much which was never spoken of again, that's not a viable source.

But I know what you are going for. Orbital fighter craft are actually present in Star Trek. The Bajorans had them on screen, the Remans and Runabouts and Peregrines have their purpose. But just not at space combat. I'm fine with them being launched by stations to intercept long range projectiles and such but it just doesn't make sense launching sub-warp small craft in cruiser battles. I'm fine with them assisting ground operations, though Starfleet doesn't have "marines" and the like at least in canon. In fact, canonically, the concept of ground based warfare was such a barbaric and outrageous thought that it gave picard the chills. When the Jem'Hadar attacked AR-558, the Starfleet personnel provided with prototype ground equipment were horrified, outnumbered and completely incapable of withstanding the enemy. True they would adapt and employ something like "Hazard Team elite forces" but I don't think they would adapt an army battalion. And you don't really need "marines" when you have Star Cruisers in orbit which can easily annihilate every random spot on a planets surface.

It's just the point - Star Trek was never about fighters and carriers, every other sci-fi show/game/movie was. Why don't leave Star Trek be Star Trek? *sob*
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,596
# 246
09-26-2012, 04:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
last i checked the AC was also t5, if you start with t1 at ltd level.
the tiers only count as a new one, if BOFF slots are added...and with all z-store ships thats not the case.
So t5 means rear admiral and up...12 Boff slots, z-store ships were generally considered t5.5 if they had a build in power.
Also all t5 ships are endgame ships, including patrol escort, assault escort, reccon vessel, deep space sci vessel, star cruiser assault cruiser.
I count Tier 5 ships as ships that you don't get for free for leveling up (which I love about this game btw, don't have to save up dil to get your next tier of ship YEEEES). Basically the Vice Admiral ships. I count Rear Admiral as Tier 4, Captain as Tier 3, Commander as Tier 2, and LtCmdr as tier 1, and your starting ship as a Lt as Tier 0 (cuz let's face it, that frigate is not a great ship at all XD). But that's the system I am referring to when I say Tier 5, so perhaps I should have been a mite more specific and said Vice Admiral ships.

So for the most part, ships that fall under my definition of Tier 5 are pretty much limited to Fleet Ships, a few retrofits, the Dreadnaught, the Odysseys, the carriers, and the MVAE. And I don't count the loloquarius as a Tier 5. In fact I deny it's very existence XD.

And out of all those ships, the only Tier 5 Cruisers (again using my definition of tier 5) are the Odysseys, Galaxy Retrofit/Dreadnaught/Fleet Retrofit, Fleet Star Cruiser, Heavy Cruiser Retrofit, and Fleet Heavy Cruiser Retrofit.

Bearing that in mind, we already removed the Heavy Cruiser Retrofit and Fleet version due to them being too small by nature and not having the energy output to sustain heavy beam arrays, which leaves us with the Galaxy Ships, Odyssey Ships, and that Fleet Star Cruiser, which is so unseen it might as well not be there.

THOSE are the ships we were referring to with the new weapon/buff portions of the thread.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder. <--- DR proved me wrong!
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,632
# 247
09-26-2012, 04:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by angrytarg View Post
In soft canon there is so much which was never spoken of again, that's not a viable source.

But I know what you are going for. Orbital fighter craft are actually present in Star Trek. The Bajorans had them on screen, the Remans and Runabouts and Peregrines have their purpose. But just not at space combat. I'm fine with them being launched by stations to intercept long range projectiles and such but it just doesn't make sense launching sub-warp small craft in cruiser battles. I'm fine with them assisting ground operations, though Starfleet doesn't have "marines" and the like at least in canon. In fact, canonically, the concept of ground based warfare was such a barbaric and outrageous thought that it gave picard the chills. When the Jem'Hadar attacked AR-558, the Starfleet personnel provided with prototype ground equipment were horrified, outnumbered and completely incapable of withstanding the enemy. True they would adapt and employ something like "Hazard Team elite forces" but I don't think they would adapt an army battalion. And you don't really need "marines" when you have Star Cruisers in orbit which can easily annihilate every random spot on a planets surface.

It's just the point - Star Trek was never about fighters and carriers, every other sci-fi show/game/movie was. Why don't leave Star Trek be Star Trek? *sob*
You would eventualy need trained ground forces since not all targets can be bombarded from space. Technicaly marines are combat personell assigned to naval vessels so a well trained security team counts a a marine division (even though they have other duties).

And while soft canon is unreliable it still exists and some of it eventualy becomes canon, so you can't dismiss all of it.(Much as we would like to with most of it.)
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abriham Lincoln
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,908
# 248
09-26-2012, 04:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085
Hence why I added in only TIER 5 cruisers can use it. I believe I highlighted it in blue XD. But that was my intent. That's why it wouldn't make cruisers OP, because it was ONLY FOR TIER 5 SIHPS. Hence why it's not overpowered. I tried to think of everythign I could when I designed it.
----------------------------------------

For cryptic to make money on a true refit for
The Galaxy class your right it has to be on the
Tier 5 ship

Also it has to be limited to the ship not a interchangeable
Part/console I like the idea of heavy beam arrays but the ship needs
More than that

A third Tac console

Universal commander boff

Maneuverability bumped up to 9

Anti matter spread should be on the ship
Deflector shot should be on the ship

On test center let players test it against tier
5 escorts until it's balanced meaning either
Ship could win I'n a 1 on 1 pvp

Repeat with a tier 5 science ship

Adjust all ships as nessary

It's just common sense and it would sell as
Well as improve the game overall

Balanced yet different

More than likely we will keep the mess we have
Now.
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng

JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,351
# 249
09-26-2012, 09:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jellico1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085
Hence why I added in only TIER 5 cruisers can use it. I believe I highlighted it in blue XD. But that was my intent. That's why it wouldn't make cruisers OP, because it was ONLY FOR TIER 5 SIHPS. Hence why it's not overpowered. I tried to think of everythign I could when I designed it.
----------------------------------------

For cryptic to make money on a true refit for
The Galaxy class your right it has to be on the
Tier 5 ship

Also it has to be limited to the ship not a interchangeable
Part/console I like the idea of heavy beam arrays but the ship needs
More than that

A third Tac console

Universal commander boff

Maneuverability bumped up to 9

Anti matter spread should be on the ship
Deflector shot should be on the ship

On test center let players test it against tier
5 escorts until it's balanced meaning either
Ship could win I'n a 1 on 1 pvp

Repeat with a tier 5 science ship

Adjust all ships as nessary

It's just common sense and it would sell as
Well as improve the game overall

Balanced yet different

More than likely we will keep the mess we have
Now.
So let me understand this right, you want the Galaxy, the second largest cruiser in Starfleet, to be the most maneuverable cruiser available have two hard-wired abilities (one that would fry much of the ship when used) and a universal commander boff?

So what would be the downsides to such a ship? Maybe we should just install an "I win" console for TNG fans instead.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,460
# 250
09-26-2012, 09:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer1 View Post
So let me understand this right, you want the Galaxy, the second largest cruiser in Starfleet, to be the most maneuverable cruiser available have two hard-wired abilities (one that would fry much of the ship when used) and a universal commander boff?

So what would be the downsides to such a ship? Maybe we should just install an "I win" console for TNG fans instead.
I'd like to add that I'm a Galaxy and TNG fan, yet I don't approve of these over-hyped "I win" setups. This thread offered several reasonable setups for an improved Galaxy A Universal Commander would technically be in canon (as all cruisers would have universal stations), yet "demanding" something like that in-game is just over the top.

EDIT: Many people, so it seems, just want that their Cruiser plays exactly like an Escort, as those are the most valuable ships in the game. Yet, this doesn't help the "Galaxy cause", at all, unfortunately...
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"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
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