Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,609
# 111
09-21-2012, 02:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
a single point of base turn rate is a huge deal. everything that buffs turn rate is multiplied by that base. in a vorcha with 10 base, i can have a high 20s turn rate easily. in my ktinga with its 11 base, i can even get mid 30s with 4 turn consoles, low 30s with 3. the excelsior with an 8 base? basically cant get over 20.
With 4 mk xi blue rcs and only moderate increase to engine power (to maintain 125 weapons power and like 70 to shields), the most I could eek out of an Excel was 24.4, I could've done more tossing more power in engines.

Honestly though, a cruiser with a turn rate more than 20 isn't that much more effective than a cruiser with a turn rate of 18, especially considering all of the engineer powers that can boost maneuverability when needed. I can pretty much get everything I need in my 90-180's, give a fresh shield and save Starfleet a small fortune in barf bags for the crew.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,273
# 112
09-21-2012, 02:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer1 View Post
Yes, the Negh'var does have a better turn rate mod' , but if I remember correctly, it has a higher inertia as well (mass to overcome) I believe its a 30 (Excel) vs 40 (NegV) which actually gives the Excel a slight turning edge.

As far as it being :yesterdays ship" time will tell, you're probably right on that, but there are listing of "Fleet" vessels that haven't even come out yet that we don't know the stats.

The DHC's only do so much when a Lt. Tac Boff is firing them too. (I really wish they would do something more to make single cannons more appealing for cruisers and sci ships as well)

The cloak, thats been since day one, the best defense is teamwork and a Nebula (something most Fed groups are short of on both accounts )

The most notale thing regarding Klingon cruiser for me is that I rarely see them in PvP, it's mostly BOP, Garumba or Carriers.
I occasionally see Vor'chas, and we'll start seeing Tor'kahts as more fleets get to tier 3. It's a good battlecruiser.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,609
# 113
09-21-2012, 03:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelingmaster View Post
I occasionally see Vor'chas, and we'll start seeing Tor'kahts as more fleets get to tier 3. It's a good battlecruiser.
But nowhere to the extent that you will see Fed cruisers in PvP, am I correct?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 114
09-21-2012, 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelingmaster View Post
You already GOT a cloak and DHC option. Dreadnaught, anyone?
You are kidding right?

The other option would be less than polite to say.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Even though the only difference between them is a 3 point turnrate difference and the ability to mount DHCs (which are useless without a good turnrate stat)
Aside from dontdrunk basically covering this completely.

It bears repeating.
3 points of base turn rate is huge, really huge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Sorry, the arguement that an average 3 point difference in turnrate and the ability to mount DHCs makes the fed fleet Cruisers useless in comparison to the Fleet KDF Battle Cruisers is silly considering they are not designed to the same playstyle.
You either don't actually understand or are purposefully downplaying how large 3 point base turn is.

Not designed for the same playstyle?

You keep harping on this except its been shown, repeatedly, that several of the fleet KDF Battlecruisers can literally do everything Fed cruisers in addition to also being able to get near Escorts in damage dealing.

Different playstyle?

Fed Cruisers have 1 playstyle "Big fat heal boat turtle."

That's it, that's pretty much the only playstyle available to them.


They're frustrating and unfun to fly, and several of them are unable to maneuver well enough to bring different shield facings to bear in combat.



I find it ironic you don't think this is a problem, and yet you think Raptors need to be improved.

Well, I guess they're just designed for a different style of play than escorts are and that style of play is basically to be completely inferior.

How does that sit with you? Because that's exactly what you're saying.

Last edited by ussultimatum; 09-21-2012 at 03:48 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,692
# 115
09-21-2012, 04:12 PM
Well the crap base turn rate is one thing... but I do think that a few other points made here basically sum up what is going on.

1) Base turn rate boost of even as small an amount as 2 is massive, and they can give it to us without making the KDF lose it's edge, since they will still be higher even without a boost.

2) Beam arrays are too damn weak ever since the defense bonus given to ships after that one patch a while back. As a result, the pressure ability that cruisers used to have is gone. Now we just sit and look magnificent until we are blow to pieces by a passing escort.

3) (a point brought up a loooong while back in this thread) Weapons are universal. They really shouldn't be. Ships should not all be able to use the same weapons, and yet they can. There are just too many problems with that system.

4) What Federation ships sacrifice and KDF ships sacrifice are not even CLOSE to even for balance's sake. 3k more hp and another device slot. Ok, the device slot is useful (to a point), but 3k hp? That's 3 shots from one of my cruisers beam arrays (with some damage boosters on it), or ONE shot, I say again ONE shot from a DHC on my raptor. The KDF sacrifice that, but gain an almost universal +2 or +3 turn rate in addition to better weapon options. Now the DHC is null, since again, klingon ships are designed for combat, whereas most fed cruisers are refitted exploration ships (with the exception of the sovereign, regent, and dreadnaught classes).

5) Already pointed out, but there is NO WAY TO MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY. No matter what happens, someone can still cry foul. It's part of the game. Get used to it (as much as it sickens me to say that, being a proud sovy pilot, and I'm an engi too XD).
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder. <--- DR proved me wrong!
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,672
# 116
09-21-2012, 04:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer1 View Post
With 4 mk xi blue rcs and only moderate increase to engine power (to maintain 125 weapons power and like 70 to shields), the most I could eek out of an Excel was 24.4, I could've done more tossing more power in engines.

Honestly though, a cruiser with a turn rate more than 20 isn't that much more effective than a cruiser with a turn rate of 18, especially considering all of the engineer powers that can boost maneuverability when needed. I can pretty much get everything I need in my 90-180's, give a fresh shield and save Starfleet a small fortune in barf bags for the crew.
using more then 2 turn consoles is fairly build derailing, 4 to just get what my vorcha can have with 2 really illustrates my point. it turns less for no reason. the ship just has to turn enough for it to use single cannons reasonably well, 10 base with just 1 or 2 turn consoles would accomplish that well. the regent with a base of 9 would work ok too. 8 base is the absolute minimum for single cannon usefulness in pvp imo. it can be hard to even keep good broad side up time with less then 8 turn on a target at close range
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,289
# 117
09-21-2012, 04:31 PM
There is no need for this. If you are having trouble turning you are not specced right.
I have no problem turning an assault cruiser fast enough to keep 180 degree single cannons on most targets. You need to max out impulse thrusters and engine performance skills and run at least 50 power to engines and turning will be great.

Yes KDF cruisers still turn better, but often at the expense of less hull, shields, or less sci consoles, the only KDF cruisers with 3 sci consoles are the Fleet Ktinga and the Corsair retro/Fleet corsair, all others have 1 or 2 while many Fed cruisers get 3 or 4 sci consoles making them better at tanking. Everything is balanced the way it is now.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,672
# 118
09-21-2012, 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marc8219 View Post
There is no need for this. If you are having trouble turning you are not specced right.
I have no problem turning an assault cruiser fast enough to keep 180 degree single cannons on most targets. You need to max out impulse thrusters and engine performance skills and run at least 50 power to engines and turning will be great.

Yes KDF cruisers still turn better, but often at the expense of less hull, shields, or less sci consoles, the only KDF cruisers with 3 sci consoles are the Fleet Ktinga and the Corsair retro/Fleet corsair, all others have 1 or 2 while many Fed cruisers get 3 or 4 sci consoles making them better at tanking. Everything is balanced the way it is now.
why are you ok with fed cruisers having a huge built in disadvantage? because your used to it?

if your about to die, an extra 3k hull multiplied by your integrity skill will grant you about a single second of additional life. max hitpoint is not important, the rate at which you can heal is. max hitpoints only offers you an advantage against possible 1 shots

every benefit of science consoles goes down the drain if you cant protect a shield facing by being able to turn well between TTs.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,289
# 119
09-21-2012, 04:52 PM
Yes but combine this increase in hull with the the 4 Sci consoles of the Fleet Star cruiser or the sci oddy and you gain a tanking ability no KDF cruiser can match, it wouldn't be fair for them to have the same turn rate as KDF cruisers in addition to the better tanking. 4 sci consoles vs the 2 sci consoles on a Vorcha/Fleet Torkat or Negvar is a huge boost to shields KDF doesn't have.

I play both factions about equally as I have 3 level 50s in each faction and can look at it from both sides and it seems pretty fair as it is now.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,500
# 120
09-21-2012, 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
You are kidding right?

The other option would be less than polite to say.




Aside from dontdrunk basically covering this completely.

It bears repeating.
3 points of base turn rate is huge, really huge.
You either don't actually understand or are purposefully downplaying how large 3 point base turn is.

Not designed for the same playstyle?

You keep harping on this except its been shown, repeatedly, that several of the fleet KDF Battlecruisers can literally do everything Fed cruisers in addition to also being able to get near Escorts in damage dealing.

Different playstyle?

Fed Cruisers have 1 playstyle "Big fat heal boat turtle."

That's it, that's pretty much the only playstyle available to them.


They're frustrating and unfun to fly, and several of them are unable to maneuver well enough to bring different shield facings to bear in combat.



I find it ironic you don't think this is a problem, and yet you think Raptors need to be improved.

Well, I guess they're just designed for a different style of play than escorts are and that style of play is basically to be completely inferior.

How does that sit with you? Because that's exactly what you're saying.
Actually I've been the one harping on playstyle and I went into detail as to why. This request would solve nothing. It would waste dev time and in the end still lead to more complaints from people who don't understand why they're not having fun. It's not turnrate. I've gone over the reasons a ton now. Feel free to read my previous posts.

(Side note to a previous poster the lower the inertia value the WORSE it is)

Please try and see the forest from the trees.
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