Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,783
# 121
09-21-2012, 05:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
I have to agree with Yreodred in that every ship should be able to operate sensibly alone and unaided, that means

they have to capable of destroying an enemy ship WITHOUT an escort to 'help' them, as I stated earlier:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
How do you explain all the PvP'ers in Cruiser who can do exactly this^^. Attack, Defend against and destroy an enemy ship, be it NPC or Player, in combat?
@bitemepwe: Maybe this way, STO is a Star Trek game. Lol.
No seriously, i believe that some players may be able to do what you said, but i think the game shouldn't classify Cruisers as support/healboats in the first place.

My point is that their BOFF & Console layout should be allow them to act more flexible, so are able to do Serious damage on a regular basis, similar as escorts (but not that extreme).
Just look at the Galor Class, thats what i have in mind when thinking about a good BOFF & Console Layout for a fed Cruiser.
(I'm sorry but sometimes i find it hard to get the right words to say what i mean. I'm no native english speaker .)


Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer1 View Post
Yreodred, have you ever tried the Excelsior? Its a pretty powerful and maneuverable ship. I really think that this

would fix 99% of your grievances with cruisers (except that they all dont look like a Galaxy class).
Surely i tried that ship but i just can't stand it looks (to say it mildly).
Yes i also have tried the D'Kora, Galor and the new Regent. Those ships are great, i wish all Federation ships had similar BOFF & Console layouts. My issue is that i don't like them very much (in fact having the D'Kora, Excelsior and the Galor generating more Firepower than a Galaxy Class is a joke IMHO).
For me, the only satisfying Fed Cruiser is the Regent Class. Lots of Tac BOFF slots, a good amout of Engieering BOFF slots and even a Lt. universal BOFF slot.
(I just wish it would look more like a Galaxy Class ).

Live long and prosper.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,426
# 122
09-21-2012, 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelingmaster View Post
Agreed, regarding DC/DHCs being useless without a proper turnrate stat. About the only KDF cruiser/battlecruiser that can actually use cannons properly is the Vor'cha/Tor'kaht/K'Tinga, and that's if you give 'em Aux to Dampeners, evasive Conn doffs, Pattern Omega, and stick 1-2 RCS consoles on 'em.
Wrong. I don't have any one single item you list there and still get my nose around fast enough to keep the enemy in my DHCs readily enough. I run NO RCS consoles (they're useless) and aux to dampeners, NO pattern omega (you only have 1 Cmdr tac slot on this ship, and you HAVE to pick CRF or you're killing your dps).


you're trashing the battlecruisers to defend the argument of buffing the fed cruisers, like "see, it won't make a difference!"

WRONG. You want fed battlecruisers. You're not going to get them. So give up all the little ploys and false arguments that are rampant in this entire thread. Thread never should have made it past page 1. Instead it's ear-plugging and humming loudly and repeating the same mantra over and over and over in hopes of it coming true.


Yeah.... riiiiiiight....
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,334
# 123
09-21-2012, 06:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
using more then 2 turn consoles is fairly build derailing, 4 to just get what my vorcha can have with 2 really illustrates my point. it turns less for no reason. the ship just has to turn enough for it to use single cannons reasonably well, 10 base with just 1 or 2 turn consoles would accomplish that well. the regent with a base of 9 would work ok too. 8 base is the absolute minimum for single cannon usefulness in pvp imo. it can be hard to even keep good broad side up time with less then 8 turn on a target at close range
I frequently throw my ship in reverse and do epe to keep targets in arc. I was doing it just a few minutes ago with my GalX. I love throwing a cruiser in reverse.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,334
# 124
09-21-2012, 07:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yreodred View Post
[font=Verdana][color=SandyBrown]@bitemepwe:
Surely i tried that ship but i just can't stand it looks (to say it mildly).
Yes i also have tried the D'Kora, Galor and the new Regent. Those ships are great, i wish all Federation ships had similar BOFF & Console layouts. My issue is that i don't like them very much (in fact having the D'Kora, Excelsior and the Galor generating more Firepower than a Galaxy Class is a joke IMHO).
For me, the only satisfying Fed Cruiser is the Regent Class. Lots of Tac BOFF slots, a good amout of Engieering BOFF slots and even a Lt. universal BOFF slot.
(I just wish it would look more like a Galaxy Class ).

Live long and prosper.
So because every ship but the Galaxy isn't visually pleasing enough for you means that you wont use them and you end up demanding an increase in the turn rate of the Galaxy? There is a ship that you admit you like play-style wise, stop griping and use the Regent. Heck if you use the Sovreign scheme the saucer section is the Galaxy's turned 90 degrees, its like you have part of the Galaxy in it. To complain that the most powerful ship in the game isnt the best looking (Galaxy) is about the same as the T5 Constitution guys demanding a VA Connie. Face it, its not going to happen.

I HATE the look of the Garumba, but its an awesome ship, and I use it all of the time on my KDF.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,783
# 125
09-21-2012, 07:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer1 View Post
So because every ship but the Galaxy isn't visually pleasing enough for you means that you wont use them and you end up demanding an increase in the turn rate of the Galaxy? There is a ship that you admit you like play-style wise, stop griping and use the Regent. Heck if you use the Sovreign scheme the saucer section is the Galaxy's turned 90 degrees, its like you have part of the Galaxy in it. To complain that the most powerful ship in the game isnt the best looking (Galaxy) is about the same as the T5 Constitution guys demanding a VA Connie. Face it, its not going to happen.

I HATE the look of the Garumba, but its an awesome ship, and I use it all of the time on my KDF.
I just find cruisers (including the regent) in STO to be too static and thus just boring.
In my opinion they don't need to be that slow turning, the devs should give them similar turn rates as science ships IMO.
I really think it wouldn't be game breaking or balance breaking. They just wouldn't be as boring to fly as they are now.


Live long and prosper.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,273
# 126
09-21-2012, 07:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentmaster View Post
Wrong. I don't have any one single item you list there and still get my nose around fast enough to keep the enemy in my DHCs readily enough. I run NO RCS consoles (they're useless) and aux to dampeners, NO pattern omega (you only have 1 Cmdr tac slot on this ship, and you HAVE to pick CRF or you're killing your dps).


you're trashing the battlecruisers to defend the argument of buffing the fed cruisers, like "see, it won't make a difference!"

WRONG. You want fed battlecruisers. You're not going to get them. So give up all the little ploys and false arguments that are rampant in this entire thread. Thread never should have made it past page 1. Instead it's ear-plugging and humming loudly and repeating the same mantra over and over and over in hopes of it coming true.


Yeah.... riiiiiiight....
I DON'T want Fed battlecruisers. However, I have trouble seeing how the heck a battlecruiser's gonna keep it's nose on an escort in PvP without the aforementioned buffs. I don't give a flying eff about PvE, it doesn't require max performance out of your ship build anywhere except no-win and maybe elite STFs. Of course you can keep the nose of the Vor'cha on a snail-speed probes/spheres, or on the dumb-as-rocks NPCs you go up against. PvE is not the standard of measure we should be using, and for good reason.

In PvP (where the specifics of game mechanics are actually put to the test, and players have to have SKILL and TIMING, as opposed to mindlessly spamming the spacebar), you have to have some of these things to use your DHCs/DCs against escorts, which are always moving pretty darn fast (using 1-2 omegas, evasive conn doffs, batteries, deuterium, etc). Against other cruisers, you don't need 'em as much.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,658
# 127
09-21-2012, 09:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentmaster View Post
Wrong. I don't have any one single item you list there and still get my nose around fast enough to keep the enemy in my DHCs readily enough. I run NO RCS consoles (they're useless) and aux to dampeners, NO pattern omega (you only have 1 Cmdr tac slot on this ship, and you HAVE to pick CRF or you're killing your dps).


you're trashing the battlecruisers to defend the argument of buffing the fed cruisers, like "see, it won't make a difference!"

WRONG. You want fed battlecruisers. You're not going to get them. So give up all the little ploys and false arguments that are rampant in this entire thread. Thread never should have made it past page 1. Instead it's ear-plugging and humming loudly and repeating the same mantra over and over and over in hopes of it coming true.


Yeah.... riiiiiiight....
wow, this here? so pve it hurts, my god.


and were back to everyone's ideologies and what they 'feel'. thats a bunch of crap. the ships are a group of stats with a ship avatar attached to them. there is a grave imbalance between these groups of stats from faction to faction. the only ideology that maters here is the pursuit of balance.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,426
# 128
09-21-2012, 11:37 PM
False. You're trying to make balance = identical. That's not it at all. Balance across the entire faction is already there. Across all ship classes. You're just whining for a more manueverable cruiser. That's not balance, not by a long shot.


P.S. PvP is so broken and boring it should NOT be the measure to base things upon. It isn't the reason people play this game. It's an afterthought. You look at the history of the development of this game and that's abundantly clear.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,658
# 129
09-22-2012, 12:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentmaster View Post
False. You're trying to make balance = identical. That's not it at all. Balance across the entire faction is already there. Across all ship classes. You're just whining for a more manueverable cruiser. That's not balance, not by a long shot.


P.S. PvP is so broken and boring it should NOT be the measure to base things upon. It isn't the reason people play this game. It's an afterthought. You look at the history of the development of this game and that's abundantly clear.
they would still not even be close to identical, no other changes are being purposed. fed cruisers would still turn worse, have a bit more hull, 4 devices, no cloak, and no DC use. the only thing im saying should change, again, is the turn rate, buffed by 2, so their turn rate isn't such a liability and an anomaly compared to all other ships in game.

the only people that think pvp is broken are those that don't know how to play. its not perfect, but its mostly solid. pvp is the only place were balance is a 'thing'. shooting helpless npcs has nothing to do with balance. it just has to look cool and npcs need to die. the entire game was built around player ships fighting player ships, the stats and abilities were all created to interact when players use them against other players. its abundantly clear that the only class you should bother pveing in is tactical, science and toothless engineering captains are nearly worthless in pve. game doesn't seem purpose built for pve after all.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,273
# 130
09-22-2012, 02:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
they would still not even be close to identical, no other changes are being purposed. fed cruisers would still turn worse, have a bit more hull, 4 devices, no cloak, and no DC use. the only thing im saying should change, again, is the turn rate, buffed by 2, so their turn rate isn't such a liability and an anomaly compared to all other ships in game.

the only people that think pvp is broken are those that don't know how to play. its not perfect, but its mostly solid. pvp is the only place were balance is a 'thing'. shooting helpless npcs has nothing to do with balance. it just has to look cool and npcs need to die. the entire game was built around player ships fighting player ships, the stats and abilities were all created to interact when players use them against other players. its abundantly clear that the only class you should bother pveing in is tactical, science and toothless engineering captains are nearly worthless in pve. game doesn't seem purpose built for pve after all.
Yeah, if this game were really built around PvE, the boff skills would not be what they are. . .simply because most of 'em are either not needed, or are useless against NPCs (subnucleonic beam being one). For every skill in a player's arsenal, there is a possible counter to it (subnukes cleared by sci team, debuffs cleared by tac team, etc). About the only thing that doesn't seem to have a direct 'counter', in my experience, is RSP. You'd have to try shooting through it with Directed Energy Modulation, or try to massively drain away the shields with drain builds, and even that is an imperfect solution.

PvP should have more prominence in the game when it comes to resources and play options. . .the fact that it does not is a travesty and a major waste of potential gameplay. PvP is not 'broken', it's just challenging. True, there are some players that can effectively faceroll everyone else all by themselves (min-maxers and other high-skill players that really squeeze every ounce of potential out of their stats). But even they have weaknesses, there's no such thing as a perfect, unbeatable build. Tractor-beam or otherwise immobilize a tanky escort enough, and you'll land enough DPS to kill it. They are also not the norm, they are the elite. Most of 'em have some sense of fair play, as well.
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