Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 336
# 1 Improving Federation Cruisers
03-07-2013, 08:54 PM
Here is a list of suggestions that I feel would particularly improve the overall viability of Federation cruisers, although they can be applied to other equivalent-sized vessels as well. There are also some suggestions that are more general in scope, but would ultimately help out cruisers. Please consider each suggestion separately.

I am aware that some of these ideas have already been raised, but I felt like getting this all off my chest.

Innate resistances

To overall damage and/or some special effects, possibly as a skill bonus or a percentage resistance separate from the skill system. The durability of their hulls and size of their crews don't seem particularly impressive when all vessels rely heavily on shielding for protection and crew numbers drop at a similar rate, regardless of overall size. It also seems that cruisers suffer from some debuffs far worse than either escorts or science vessels, due to their limited mobility, lack of cleansing or immunity abilities, and reliance on high power levels in multiple subsystems.

Faster turning speeds

Mobility of Federation cruisers is simply too low, and no two ways about it. Lack of turning ability is particularly crippling. It affects how well cruisers can maintain broadsides or forward weaponry on target, protecting weakened shield facings, or even how quickly they can reach an ally in order to apply repairs.

Innate bonuses

Instead of +5 power spread across all subsystems (as is the case for many cruisers) for a total of +20 power overall, allow one or more subsystems to receive additional power ranging from +10 to +15, for a total of +25 power overall.

BETTER BEAM ARRAYS

Improve base accuracy and reduce power drain. Out of all problems that affect cruisers, this is probably THE most significant and yet the easiest one to resolve.

Improved beam-related abilities

Beam Overload has a lot of faults for what it does, but the absolute worst is that it appears to miss very often. Either it should hit all the time, or have a much higher degree of accuracy than the weapon it is being fired from.

Beam Fire At Will is simply inefficient compared to Cannon Scatter Volley, so it may be more of an issue regarding comparison than anything else. Perhaps Cannon Scatter Volley could be reworked so that it doesn't have a damage bonus but increases accuracy, just so that Beam Fire At Will has some sort of niche.

Would be nice to add some sort of beam ability that temporarily increases accuracy/critical hit percentage for a period of time, as well as one that affects the proc chances in a similar way. This would give beam abilities more purpose as a general utility weapon, compared to the raw damage that cannons can project.

Faster shield distribution

Current rate of distribution works too slowly and makes Tactical Team an absolute necessity. Particularly bad for cruisers due to their slow turn rates, to the point where survivability often hinges on whether or not the ability is available for use.

Rework of crew system

As they are, they're not really an advantage or a drawback. Give cruisers resistance against losing crew members to various causes, enhance the effect of crews on repair and power transfer rates while in battle, and add a debuff that occurs whenever a ship's complement drops below 10% of its full capacity. This would make Aceton Beam/Boarding Party a little more useful as offensive abilities.

Faster-moving torpedoes

The current speed of most torpedoes makes it difficult to exploit shield facing weaknesses on fast-moving targets or any targets that are over 5km away. Photon, quantum, regular plasma, chroniton, and regular transphasic should have their speeds boosted.

Separate armour slot(s)

I would say that every ship should have at least two armour slots, but perhaps cruisers can be differentiated by having two armour slots while other ships have no more than one? Either way, relegating armour consoles to a dedicated slot would help free up Engineering slots, for consoles that emphasize their strengths or compensate for their weaknesses.

Enable aft mounting for DBBs

Last edited by eraserfish; 03-07-2013 at 09:04 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,736
# 2
03-07-2013, 09:20 PM
ach, its not specific to cruisers.

special weapons are just power creep. power creep never FIXES balance issues, it just moves them around leading to the other side of the balance debate needing them, its stupid, lazy, short sighted and ultimatly self defeating


turn rates doesnt specifically need to be faster, sips that are the same size need to turn the same rate, things like the akira and adv escort just turn way too fast given they are bigger that the heavy cruiser & connie respectivly.


beam arrays are fine as they are for dps, at most the power drain mechanic may need looked at, but they are fine as is

shield redistribution isnt a cruiser issue, its across the board.
it shouldnt be hit wait 3 seconds, works, it should work the same way as aux2sif

afaik the crew loss from kinetics is actually broken, apparently its killing whatever the larger number is whan choosing between between 10 crew or 10% or crew

torps arent a cruiser issue either, and i really dont want borg torps going faster, they are bat enough as they are.

a kinda agree with separating armour from engineering, it would be nice to see it be a hull size related thing but carrying big penalties to accelleration & turning for the ship they are on due to the mass involved in slapping on superdense alloys & other things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redz4tw View Post
can you say attack pattern angry forumers 3?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 549
# 3
03-07-2013, 09:48 PM
Based on Cryptic's past treatment of cruisers, their laughable attempts at "balancing", and the immense escort fanbase among the devs, absolutely none of your suggestions would be even considered.
Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 336
# 4
03-07-2013, 09:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skollulfr View Post
ach, its not specific to cruisers.
First couple of points are, others are general improvements that will ultimately benefit cruisers in some way.

Quote:
special weapons are just power creep. power creep never FIXES balance issues, it just moves them around leading to the other side of the balance debate needing them, its stupid, lazy, short sighted and ultimatly self defeating
I didn't mention any special or ship-specific weapons. I also fully agree with you on that note.

Quote:
beam arrays are fine as they are for dps, at most the power drain mechanic may need looked at, but they are fine as is
They aren't fine, really. I get the feeling that they miss more on average than cannons

Quote:
shield redistribution isnt a cruiser issue, its across the board.
it shouldnt be hit wait 3 seconds, works, it should work the same way as aux2sif
It's a far bigger issue for cruisers.

Quote:
afaik the crew loss from kinetics is actually broken, apparently its killing whatever the larger number is whan choosing between between 10 crew or 10% or crew
Well either way, I'd like to see crew mechanic figure into the game more. Otherwise, just axe it and replace with something works. Or, if it doesn't work, build in a faster recovery rate for cruisers and perhaps science vessels as well.

Quote:
torps arent a cruiser issue either, and i really dont want borg torps going faster, they are bat enough as they are.
It's an issue in terms of timing, and it definitely affects cruisers due to their comparative mobility and how difficult it is for them to close within optimal range. Also, I said that this should only apply to regular torpedoes, and not those big destructible ones.

Last edited by eraserfish; 03-07-2013 at 10:12 PM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,608
# 5
03-07-2013, 10:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eraserfish View Post
Faster-moving torpedoes

The current speed of most torpedoes makes it difficult to exploit shield facing weaknesses on fast-moving targets or any targets that are over 5km away. Photon, quantum, regular plasma, chroniton, and regular transphasic should have their speeds boosted.
i definitely agree with this; they should move at hargh'peng speeds, or at least 75% of hargh'peng speed
Quote:
[Combat (Self)] Your Kumari Phaser Wing Cannons - Overload deals 128698 (67705) Phaser Damage(Critical) to Borg Bird-of-Prey.
don't mess with the andorians
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Originally Posted by starswordc View Post
If it walks like an idiot, talks like an idiot, and acts like an idiot, it's a frakking idiot.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,736
# 6
03-07-2013, 11:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eraserfish View Post
I didn't mention any special or ship-specific weapons. I also fully agree with you on that note.
yea, i guess so lol.
its just that thats usually the theme that comes out in "improve item X" type discussions


Quote:
Originally Posted by eraserfish View Post
They aren't fine, really. I get the feeling that they miss more on average than cannons
its not really that they miss more, its just more noticable.
especially when compared to crf, bo missing is a real penalty.
i wish it was more of a 3 second high damage swipe like the ion frigates in homeworld used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eraserfish View Post
It's a far bigger issue for cruisers.
its more that it happens at different times in an enguagment for a cruiser it happens during the incoming alpha strike,
for an escort it happen during evasion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by eraserfish View Post
Well either way, I'd like to see crew mechanic figure into the game more. Otherwise, just axe it and replace with something works. Or, if it doesn't work, build in a faster recovery rate for cruisers and perhaps science vessels as well.
better base crew resistance...
its a pain since the buffs from tec/engie/sci team are apparently affected by crew levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eraserfish View Post
It's an issue in terms of timing, and it definitely affects cruisers due to their comparative mobility and how difficult it is for them to close within optimal range. Also, I said that this should only apply to regular torpedoes, and not those big destructible ones.
fair, my bad for misreading.
but i still want to see the end of the class system and for it to be replaced with one based on the size of the ship.

though a can see logic for a 2 slot system one being an armor the second being a plating or alloy
Quote:
Originally Posted by redz4tw View Post
can you say attack pattern angry forumers 3?
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,447
# 7
03-07-2013, 11:23 PM
I rarely see Beam overload miss. Now Galx Phaser lance is another story and the turn rate is fine minus the Gals. overall I think the cruiser is fine. you just need to know how to drive her.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,708
# 8
03-07-2013, 11:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eraserfish View Post

......lots of ideas that I honestly do not feel are very good....
You suggest lots of things that would make cruisers tankier, if you're having problems tanking then your level of understanding on cruisers is probably not as high as you think.

With all the recent changes to the metagame, mostly in the way of additional defenses there may be an argument to be made for improving beam arrays. I would prefer a simple straight dps bump instead of a more complicated drain rework or rebalance (seriously, am I the only one that has a realistic idea of the mess we'd be in for months if not years if Cryptic went in to try and change things in anything deeper than entries on the weapon database?!?!). And after a while seeing if the dps bump was enough to counterbalance the metagame changes. Of course, then people would rightfully complain about their upgrades being devalued..... ugh, can we go to cosmetic upgrades now? The current power creep system is just untenable.

The one thing that gets my total support is the turning buff for fed cruisers. I've always felt that an extra point of turning (or two) would not really change anything other than improve the Quality of Life of cruiser pilots.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,736
# 9
03-08-2013, 12:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
You suggest lots of things that would make cruisers tankier, if you're having problems tanking then your level of understanding on cruisers is probably not as high as you think.

With all the recent changes to the metagame, mostly in the way of additional defenses there may be an argument to be made for improving beam arrays. I would prefer a simple straight dps bump instead of a more complicated drain rework or rebalance (seriously, am I the only one that has a realistic idea of the mess we'd be in for months if not years if Cryptic went in to try and change things in anything deeper than entries on the weapon database?!?!). And after a while seeing if the dps bump was enough to counterbalance the metagame changes. Of course, then people would rightfully complain about their upgrades being devalued..... ugh, can we go to cosmetic upgrades now? The current power creep system is just untenable.

The one thing that gets my total support is the turning buff for fed cruisers. I've always felt that an extra point of turning (or two) would not really change anything other than improve the Quality of Life of cruiser pilots.
soo, there was buff to defence
so to fix it you want to buff dps

and then you complain about power creep, when power creep is what you are suggesting?

c'mon, you can do better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redz4tw View Post
can you say attack pattern angry forumers 3?
Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 336
# 10
03-08-2013, 12:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
You suggest lots of things that would make cruisers tankier, if you're having problems tanking then your level of understanding on cruisers is probably not as high as you think.

With all the recent changes to the metagame, mostly in the way of additional defenses there may be an argument to be made for improving beam arrays. I would prefer a simple straight dps bump instead of a more complicated drain rework or rebalance (seriously, am I the only one that has a realistic idea of the mess we'd be in for months if not years if Cryptic went in to try and change things in anything deeper than entries on the weapon database?!?!). And after a while seeing if the dps bump was enough to counterbalance the metagame changes. Of course, then people would rightfully complain about their upgrades being devalued..... ugh, can we go to cosmetic upgrades now? The current power creep system is just untenable.

The one thing that gets my total support is the turning buff for fed cruisers. I've always felt that an extra point of turning (or two) would not really change anything other than improve the Quality of Life of cruiser pilots.
I can make a cruiser very tanky indeed, but the problem is that I won't be doing much other than waddling around the field. That's what I call a brick; something that is hard to destroy, but easy to ignore because it poses no threat. However, if you try to alter most cruiser builds to accommodate some measure of damage, then what you'll get is a cruiser that is not good at tanking and not good at dealing damage. If you improve some of the baseline tanking abilities of a cruiser, it would be far safer for people to explore some measure of offensive capability.

Really, it isn't so much the desire to have DPS than the desire to actually do some damage. As I've said before, you'll see situations where one escort can take on two to three cruisers on its own, while one cruiser will have trouble trying to handle two escorts. That led me to question why I bothered arming myself at all, if I couldn't do enough damage to kill or cripple another ship. Just going down that line of inquiry is just plain discouraging and very nearly makes me want to give up on the game in disgust.

Last edited by eraserfish; 03-08-2013 at 12:33 AM.
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