Go Back   Star Trek Online > Feedback > PvP Gameplay
Login

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Ensign
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3
# 291
09-27-2012, 11:49 PM
Instead of changing so much stuff and making new bugs, how about we just halve the remaining time of every single timer found in the affected ship? The more this thing activates the faster its target will have guns/skills/whatever available and problem solved.

Let's call it "the aftershock causes a global system reset and safety procedures are overridden during emergency startup" move.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,919
# 292
09-28-2012, 12:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716maikai View Post
you sound as if youre talking about some sort of hax or exploit?
Oh no never! People do not use those in this game not at all! All kidding aside Borticus and anyone else working on PvP is going to have their hands full to the point of hitting the realm of the impossible with the downsides of free to play what people think is bad now for PvP will be even worse as time goes on because I doubt PWE will be diverting GM resources to combat the plague of what is to come is why more than likely they were hesitant to even bother with improving it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 230
# 293
09-28-2012, 01:06 AM
I'll repeat my suggestion (and follow up with a second one that maybe requires less tech):
Quote:
Originally Posted by fakehilbert View Post
Can you make Doffs unlock click ablities? Like when one equips a device / P2W console on a ship and it becomes a clickable power that one can place in the tray?

If yes, then make it a "strip 1 buff" subnuke (number of stripped buffs stacks with number of doffs) with a 3min cooldown.
Different idea: Go with the "strip only one buff" change and also change it from stacking the proc chance to stacking the effect.
What I mean: 3 doffs then strip 3 buffs, but still only with a .5% chance. This way you can reduce the frequency without having to rely on immunites / hidden cooldowns. This entire idea of hidden cooldowns to rebalance an ability has already failed with the borg healing procs, so I'm not too confident it will work this time.


If you really need to go with immunities, it should be at the very least 30 seconds. Preferably much more.

Keep in mind that with the current proc rate and a full team, you will see a proc on average 8s after the immunity runs out. So under focus fire conditions you are balancing for a strip every (immunity+8) seconds. (And people can also switch targets while someone is immune, so the effective immunity against strips as a team is reduced to 1/5.)



I hope you also realise the main source of the problem so you can avoid it in the future: You have created a doff that via stacking (both up to 3 on a single player and up to 5x3 in a team) has a huge variance in effectiveness / proc frequency and thus cannot really be balanced in a way that makes it useful on both ends of the spectrum. (Especially since you are not willing to introduce a drawback to using the doff.)

None of the issues with the SNB doff should come as a surprise to you, since the math was readily available on the doff's description text. So surely you guys at Cryptic had long balance discussions that considered the implications of a strip every 2.7s (the doff had initially a 1.5% chance) and came to a conclusion that it was somehow balanced. Just go back to these old meeting notes and the math you did back then and figure out what you missed, and then do the calculations right.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,717
# 294
09-28-2012, 01:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fakehilbert View Post
So surely you guys at Cryptic had long balance discussions that considered the implications of a strip every 2.7s (the doff had initially a 1.5% chance) and came to a conclusion that it was somehow balanced. Just go back to these old meeting notes
Second best joke on STO forums, since the first posting of the Temp Destroyer STats
Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 978
# 295
09-28-2012, 05:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
Regarding the immunity period, allow me to paint a different perspective:

What can you do, as a ship, if all of your active buffs are removed?
1. Circle upwards/downwards, hoping to escape DHC firing arcs.

Doesn't work if you're held in a tractor beam, got chronitoned, engines disabled or hit by other holds. Also APO buffed escorts will be able climb faster and catch you. Doesn't work against beam array users.

2. Transfer power to shields and hope the bonus shield damage resists buys you some time.

3. Hit evasive

Basically run away. Effective as long as the other team doesn't have someone who puts you in a hold.

4. Redistribute shields

It'll help combat low level damage (say someone with a poor build), but against a seasoned tac in an escort it's effect won't be noticeable.

Chances are if it's a slow turning, slow moving cruiser it'll be dead in a few seconds. An Escort has a bit more of a chance since some of it's tanking comes from it's manoeuvrability.

I'd say if both are held in a tractor beam and the attacking escort isn't buffed with tac captain powers, they'll have about 5-10 seconds.


Quote:
How much time do you need in order to be effective again after being hit? How long do the buffs you apply really last? How long do they NEED to last in order for you to feel like you've gotten your use from them? If you blew all of your cooldowns, will they have refreshed before the immunity period is over, or will you just potentially get stripped again unless the immunity timer is longer than your buff cooldowns?
I'd say the absolute minimum an immunity should be is about 2 mins, to account for tanking skills such as RSP and RSF.
Previously Alendiak
Daizen - Lvl 50 Engineer - Fleet Avenger
Selia - Lvl 50 Tactical - Fleet Avenger
Toval - Lvl 50 Tactical - Fleet Mogai

Last edited by orondis; 09-28-2012 at 05:50 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 574
# 296
09-28-2012, 07:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by havam View Post
Second best joke on STO forums, since the first posting of the Temp Destroyer STats
Side note, temp destroyers are far from being that op as some of us believed. Really, destroyer = patrol escort with mvam flavor. Far from being a bug, slightly better than patrol and mvam but I mean just slight. To the point that destroyer can't really be considered a "joke". Just a lil' better than fleet escorts.

Edit: inertia=60, mvam=70, fleet patrol= 60. Turn =15, worse than mvam. You consoles from lobi store are for any ship, so dont count. The console that comes with ship and spawns 2 copies of the ship - future and past (don't remember name) has 5 min cooldown... And if you shoot the past clone you're getting damage also.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...

Last edited by trueprom3theus; 09-28-2012 at 07:17 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 574
# 297
09-28-2012, 07:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by orondis View Post
1. Circle upwards/downwards, hoping to escape DHC firing arcs.

Doesn't work if you're held in a tractor beam, got chronitoned, engines disabled or hit by other holds. Also APO buffed escorts will be able climb faster and catch you. Doesn't work against beam array users.

2. Transfer power to shields and hope the bonus shield damage resists buys you some time.

3. Hit evasive

Basically run away. Effective as long as the other team doesn't have someone who puts you in a hold.

4. Redistribute shields

It'll help combat low level damage (say someone with a poor build), but against a seasoned tac in an escort it's effect won't be noticeable.

Chances are if it's a slow turning, slow moving cruiser it'll be dead in a few seconds. An Escort has a bit more of a chance since some of it's tanking comes from it's manoeuvrability.

I'd say if both are held in a tractor beam and the attacking escort isn't buffed with tac captain powers, they'll have about 5-10 seconds.




I'd say the absolute minimum an immunity should be is about 2 mins, to account for tanking skills such as RSP and RSF.
Problem with those doffs is that even if you do all you say, since you're stripped of buffs every 8-ish sec, even heals from your team are stripped (other than et/st that apply instantly). I understand the point of your advice though and I'm not debating it.

Bort, what exactly are you willing to do to fix them? I understood you are talking about immunity and maybe proc chance. Best would be to either follow Jorf's idea (doffs to increase cooldowns) which I understand indirectly it is not something you're willing to do, either hilbert's with 1 buff removal/doff slotted, either what fallout and I supported with at least 30 sec of immunity and max 3 buffs stripped, which is a little too harsh, I'd put 1 min immunity, thinking we get about 30 sec immunity from ams where you actually don't get any buff removed.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 79
# 298
09-28-2012, 11:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naldoran
To answer the question about how long until you're stable and back in 'normal' combat after getting hit; up to 30 seconds, since that is the cycle time on Emergency Power to Shields. If you don't have EPtS online, (PvP builds without that power are very rare in my experience) you're vulnerable since you're missing that rather hefty shield resist. This is where my 60-second number comes from; I feel that you should have at least one buff cycle worth of 'normal' combat where you are not having to fly defensively and receive heavy heals from the team before being at risk of a second proc.

This is good solid reasoning. Minimum for a random doff strip should be about a min since that gives one cycle of "normal" defense before possibly getting stripped again. Honestly I think 2 minutes would not be entirely inappropriate given that's the cooldown on the Sci Capt ability that does the same thing. I also strongly think that the doff snb immunity should not effect the Sci Capt ability.

Of course, I also still wonder if the doff couldn't just be changed to reduce the cooldown on the Sci Capt ability and work just like the attack pattern doffs do. That would be both balanced and consistent.

Nixus
Nixus
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 574
# 299
09-28-2012, 11:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zyphoid7 View Post
This is good solid reasoning. Minimum for a random doff strip should be about a min since that gives one cycle of "normal" defense before possibly getting stripped again. Honestly I think 2 minutes would not be entirely inappropriate given that's the cooldown on the Sci Capt ability that does the same thing. I also strongly think that the doff snb immunity should not effect the Sci Capt ability.

Of course, I also still wonder if the doff couldn't just be changed to reduce the cooldown on the Sci Capt ability and work just like the attack pattern doffs do. That would be both balanced and consistent.

Nixus
I also like your idea, heck, anything that is different than current state could be better, lol.

Bort, could you please let us know which of those solutions is best/feasible for you to implement and also provide more detail in case what we have said is not easily to be implemented? We'd like to see what your best options are in your opinion.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,339
# 300
09-28-2012, 11:23 AM
We're not going to change a Doff that does one thing into a Doff that does something completely different.

This Doff strips buffs.

He's not going to be changed into a Doff that impacts cooldowns.

Those are completely different mechanics that are only tied together by a single power that 1/3rd of the characters in game have access to.

So please stop making suggestions of this type. You're only confusing the issue and potential solutions.

For now, there's an immunity period in place and the duration of that period is all I was requesting feedback on. It sounds like 30-60 seconds is the general consensus, but I haven't heard much solid info to support one end of that spectrum or the other besides "it's too powerful unless" statements.

The proc % of the doff will probably be increased in order to offset this immunity period.

The remaining issue of "how many buffs does it strip" is still in the air. Most folks on this forum are in favor of limiting it to just a small handful. I'm thinking I could probably make this 3 and most players would see no difference in PvE since most NPCs rarely run with more than 3 buffs at a time anyway. So that's likely to happen.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Systems Design
"Play smart!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
Kurland here...
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:13 PM.