Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 176
# 11
09-25-2012, 07:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Simple, clean, and completely and totally lazy. And guess what? No surprise whatsoever.
Q.F.T. The system has a lot of variables in it that they'd rather ignore than deal with, which may have been the error in sci officer design from the begining.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 12
09-25-2012, 08:04 AM
Are you talking about Science Career, Science Ships, or Science Abilities here? It's really hard to tell, and it would be important.

Science Career is actually fine:
In space, they're the career that provides actual group buffs, both offensive and defensive, not just self-buffs (well, there's FOMM, true, but science can offer a bit more).
On the ground, they're tanks, healers and AoE dps, currently the most versatile and powerful career.

Science Ships ... are actually not that bad either:
Thanks to Sensor Scan, a decently build Science Ship can keep up in DPS with most Fed Cruisers, while still offering CC and debuffs that help with objectives, as well as providing the necessary disables for organized PvP.
Sure, they can't keep up in DPS with an Escort/Raptor/Battle Cruiser, nor can they out-tank a Cruiser - but they're really not that bad as people make them seem to be: a lot closer in tankyness to Cruisers than to Escorts (not counting one-shot-kill abillities in STFs), and a lot better utility than either.

Science abilities ... hey, wait, they're not useless either:
While their damage has been nerfed heavily, and drains are no longer certain death for anyone hit in PvP ... that's actually fine IMHO. Science in all its glory was overpowered.
Utility though hasn't really decayed much: Tyken's still disables any NPC ship, turning even STF bosses into harmless, passive hunks of metal. Grav-well still keeps probes from failing your objectives, and still sets up groups of NPCs for AoE death. Viral Matrix still disables opposing players in PvP. Tractor Repulsors still let you shove NPC-enemies away from the objective you're protecting, at it still lets you seperate opponents in PvP, turning "the murdering Escort and his healing Cruiser-buddy" into "the squishy Escort that goes *BOOM and the harmless whale we can ignore until later". Feedback Pulse still makes people rethink the wisdom of running a full Alpha-Strike on a Sci in PvP, and it's still a phantastic tool if you want to run a Sci-tank (quite viable, btw ). Need I go on?
The problem is often that people try to use the wrong tools for the job. Do you complain about a hammer being useless when you're faced with a screw? Do you try to use a screwdriver on nails?
Science abitities ARE tools. Powerful when used for what they're good at, and not too impressive otherwise. Use the right one at the right time, and there's little reason to complain - okay, not "none", some abilities could use a bit of a buff, but those real complains get drowned out in the general "Science sucks!" choire.

Which is actually my main beef with topics like this: They don't seem to be concerned with game balance at all, you seem to want overpowered I-WIN buttons ... and it's not really surprising that won't happen ... again.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 13
09-25-2012, 09:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
Science abilities ... hey, wait, they're not useless either:
While their damage has been nerfed heavily, and drains are no longer certain death for anyone hit in PvP ... that's actually fine IMHO. Science in all its glory was overpowered.
Utility though hasn't really decayed much...

The problem is often that people try to use the wrong tools for the job. Do you complain about a hammer being useless when you're faced with a screw? Do you try to use a screwdriver on nails?
Science abitities ARE tools. Powerful when used for what they're good at, and not too impressive otherwise. Use the right one at the right time, and there's little reason to complain - okay, not "none", some abilities could use a bit of a buff, but those real complains get drowned out in the general "Science sucks!" choire.
....
It seems you did not play this game pre-F2P when science, engineering and tactical each were balanced and each provided its own means of fighting an enemy.

Back then, the escort was the absolute king of maneuvering and maintaining fire upon a specific shield facing. Their damage was not much higher than a cruiser but they could focus it all in one shield and had burst damage abilities. The tactical boff abilities all were focused towards giving the escort ship this capability.

An analogy we had back then was that tactical abilities were like the ninja of STO: know the weak points of the enemy and strike them hard.

Engineering boff abilities turned ships, particularly cruisers, into monster power level and repair ships. The engineer boff abilities worked towards keeping the ship alive. Offensive abilities were few but they did have the stuff to make the enemy weapons benefit the cruiser (reverse shield polarity, aceton beam,etc).

The analogy for the engineering skills was that it was the 'Judo' skill set. Very defensive and using the opponent's strengths against him.

Science abilities back then had multiple roles depending on the captain's skills and the focus the ship equipment and boff abilities were set to.

Science ships could focus on: Crowd Control+auxiliary damage (grav well, repulsors, charged particle burst...aka any ability based on graviton and particle skill); on single target debuff (skills based on flow capacitors..aka power drains, subsystem disable,etc), on shield tanking and on Denial (countermeasures/sensors/etc).

Due to the nature of the skill sets and the stats that they were based on, science ships could usually do one of those roles really well or two of them with decent enough impact.

Back then, attacking a science ship was a dangerous thing to do... not because it was overpowered but because science abilities could significantly debuff the cruiser and escort's main strengths to the point where the science ship could gain a slight advantage over them to defeat them.

I remember fighting off 3 escorts by keeping my shields at full power & shield tanking while popping subsystem disable engines and gravity well at them...and watching the escort take significant damage from the grav well since he could not escape it.

If i did not disable the engine, the escorts could ONLY pull out of the grav well (back then!) by using evasive maneuvers or changing his power levels to full engine power... or by using AUX to dampeners. Knowing that two of the three ways out of the well involved the engine I, as a smart sci captain, used disable engine. That left the escort with just aux to dampeners to escape... and most dps-crazed escorts didnt have it.

Back then omega nor polarize hull protected or gave immunity to gravity well (which made freaking sense).

Did it make my sci ship the murderer of all escorts it met? hell no. Grav well only killed escorts that I managed to hurt their hull via conventional weapons (transphasics and plasma/phaser were the sci ship weapon of choice back then for this very reason) before tossing the disable & grav well at them.

Power drain sci ships were quite effective... but people forget that cruisers could counteract the drain with their engineering skills and escorts could simply fly out of range with their speed and break the drain effect.

The different abilities of tactical, engineering and science were all STRONG back then and they all had a counter found in the other ship types.


The problem was, come F2P and the need to start selling stuff put tactical into the front...its the only one that had items that could be peddled.

Accordingly, the tactical skill boxes were dumbed down so ANYONE could use any weapon regardless of spec. BLING! market expanded to everyone in the game... and dumbed down so there was no thinking involved in using them.

Accordingly, tactical skills received a major performance boost... not by directly tweaking the abilities but by nerfing the snot out of major stats that countered weapons fire.

Accordingly, science and engineer skill sets were gradually and constantly nerfed so as to become mere secondary tools to the main selling point of the game: weapons. Tactical stuff.

While they do not sell torpedoes and guns on cstore they do sell lots of lockboxes with potent TACTICAL advantages. When was the last time you saw a ship that came with a science ability or an engineering ability that improved the ship or gave people a reason to buy it? Oh wait..never.

Because the special console of cstore ships post f2p and the unique stuff from lockboxes has always been focused on inflicting damage. The selling point.

Selling point made crucial by nerfing the abilities of the other professions.


STO ceased to be trek with the F2P.
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 14
09-25-2012, 10:30 AM
cmdrskyfaller:

Very good history lesson.
Yes, you're right, I didn't really play back then. 'Looked at it when it released, and it wasn't worth the money. I still did some basic research before coming to that conclusion. And: I've done my history lessons when I decided to give this F2P version a try, so this isn't news for me.
Still, a very good description.

I'll admit, space combat back then looked good, better than now.

But that's it: history.
They went and changed the system to a more dumbed down version. True.
What's not true though is that Science is broken under the new and dumbed down system - it's just a lot less unique, with science power no longer being weapons in themselves, but tools to support your weapons. Used right, science is contributing just fine.
The problem is if people try to use what they learned with the old system, depend on their abilities for damage, or can't cope with effects being countered a lot easier. That simply doesn't work anymore. You have to adept.

When you're saying that Science is broken now - you're wrong. And I'm going to tell you that.
If you asked instead for a less dumbed down combat system, with more unique contribution from career and ship type, and less from raw weapons and power levels ... then I'd immediately agree with you and support you.
See the difference?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 15
09-25-2012, 11:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
But that's it: history.
They went and changed the system to a more dumbed down version. True.
You misunderstand. The only part that they dumbed down was tactical. Engineering and Science retained their complexity and multi-stat skill box requirements. Tactical oth, received full flown benefits from what used to be 6+ skill boxes by training just one skill box. Tactical skill boxes used to be as numerous as science is now...and science skill boxes used to have a few more boxes to train than we do now to boot.

Quote:
What's not true though is that Science is broken under the new and dumbed down system - it's just a lot less unique, with science power no longer being weapons in themselves, but tools to support your weapons. Used right, science is contributing just fine.
The problem is if people try to use what they learned with the old system, depend on their abilities for damage, or can't cope with effects being countered a lot easier. That simply doesn't work anymore. You have to adept.
You give a good description of what it is now. Tools to support weapons. The problem with that however, is that science ships have the least amount of weapons and zero capability to do science to help themselves. There is no 'support others' nonsense in a game that is now purely based on DPS. A team is not hurt at all by the absence of a science ship nor is it greatly benefitted by its presence. Take away escorts however...or cruiser tanks... and teams suffer greatly.

The old system did not have science doing damage (gravity well was the sole exception). It had it doing its intended role: Debuff. Crowd Control. A science ship trying to 'contribute' to a team today does so at the expense of its slot in the team being used up by a ship with low dps and with no better abilities than an escort using LT level science abilities (repulsor/tractor/tyken) to crowd control. Debuffs ceased to be of any particular importance due to the ridiculous damage boost weapons received.

heck before it was HARD to kill a darn cube. A sci ship debuffing it made quite visibly easier. Now? LOL escorts can kill cubes in 1 pass solo.

Quote:
When you're saying that Science is broken now - you're wrong. And I'm going to tell you that. If you asked instead for a less dumbed down combat system, with more unique contribution from career and ship type, and less from raw weapons and power levels ... then I'd immediately agree with you and support you.
See the difference?
It is broken in the sense that there's little point in using it. Kindly do not argue that point, there are dozens and dozens of posts you can search here that show actual numbers for it.

What you just said of 'IF i was asking for..' .. is precisely what pre-f2p was. Each career and ship type was unique...the game was not DPS-centric but role-centric....and power levels made a HUGE difference (a science ship with 125 shield power could literally tank three escorts for a very long time..just because the shield skills back then actually linked with power level performance). The game used to be strategic and tactical (not the career) in nature. You had to THINK what you were doing not mindlessly click the fire button until shtuff blew up.

Go and find youtube videos of the game prior to f2p. See just how different combat was and how different the different ship types performed.

Just think on this: AUX power used to determine a ship's turn rate as much as engine power determined speed. Playing an escort back then meant actually changing your power level configurations to do an attack run.. full power to weapons and engines meant your AUX was low and you could not turn so well and do the silly zippy-ship-of-death crap we see today. On the other hand, if you pushed your engine down and AUX up just before you zoom past your target, the ship could literally do a power slide or change vector rapidly by power sliding with AUX and then switching AUX and ENG again.

Sci ships used to switch power levels between shield and engine/aux to do a quick maneuver (think: Picard Maneuver like) and switch back to shields during engagements.

Cruisers favored switching between weapon and engine power since at full engine a cruiser used to be almost as fast as an escort (with horrendous turn rate though) so they'd try to get into 5km range to tractor-snare the escort and then pummel it with full weapons as they flew over it at point blank range. The escort back then could only break tractors by jamming sensors, killing aux power via subsystem disable or using polarize hull. Omega did not break tractors back then, it only prevented a tractor from being applied.

That is the kind of gameplay that ceased to exist.
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 16
09-25-2012, 12:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
It is broken in the sense that there's little point in using it. Kindly do not argue that point, there are dozens and dozens of posts you can search here that show actual numbers for it.
Actually ... I will argue that, to some degree at least.
As for the remainder of your post, I already agreed with you on that.

What we're facing is not a problem with careers, or ship types, or abilities, what we're facing is a lack of content that can't be facerolled.
Current STFs can be facerolled.
Even by 5 Sci/Sci, or by 5 Eng/Cruiser, provided the players know their stuff and deal out the 3.xk to low'ish 4.xk dps over the encounter that their ships are capable of. Optional objective complete, of course.
It really doesn't need the 5.xk to 6.xk dps an Escort or Carrier can dish out.
Nor ... does it need tanks, or CC.
And that's the real problem, that's what makes it possible for 5 Tac/Escort to simply zerg down an STF in record time.
The lack of challenging content.

You'd probably even see people make use of different power settings again if the content challenged them hard enough. It's still a good idea to do that in PvP ... well, at least if the opposing team puts up a challenge, and your team is also up to it, else it's pointless.

And ... let's be honest, that shouldn't really come as a surprise, either. Most content is old. Since it was released, the only thing that progressed is newer and better ships, newer and better weapons, newer and better consoles ... not newer and harder content. Of course this leads to faceroll.

But the opposite is still true: Cruiser can tank, Science can debuff and CC. A run making use of that is a lot smoother than one that doesn't. No deaths, no repairs, and quite competetive completion times.
Again: while neither Sci nor Cruisers, neither CC nor tanks, are currently needed, that's not really an issue with the current game balance, nor the current combat mechanics. It's a problem with lacking, challenging content.

Science is not broken. Science doesn't need a general buff. (Just some small ability fixes). What Science really needs is content that can't just be facerolled.
Same with Cruisers and Engs, btw, which are complaining even more often.

I'm probably sounding like a broken record already, am I?
Still, once more, as a TL;DR.
You're still asking for the wrong change.
Don't ask for a Tac-nerf, or a buff to Sci/Eng/Cruisers that'd allow them to faceroll just as hard as Tac - ask for content that actually challenges groups enough so that Sci and Eng and Cruisers can show that they're not broken. Because they ain't.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 17
09-25-2012, 03:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
Actually ... I will argue that, to some degree at least.
As for the remainder of your post, I already agreed with you on that.

What we're facing is not a problem with careers, or ship types, or abilities, what we're facing is a lack of content that can't be facerolled.
Current STFs can be facerolled.
The issue is not the difficulty of the STF's or missions. Have you tried to 'faceroll' an elite STF with just cruisers or science ships? Or both..without any escorts? You simply cannot 'faceroll' with those ships.

The issue is precisely the abilities. Ship types and career (capt abilities) have not been changed from pre-f2p. The only thing that changed was the stats the abilities were based on and the captain skill points.

I'll say it again (for I AM a broken record lol) : pre-f2p escorts were not the ungodly damage output ships they are now. They relied on their speed and turn rate and forward burst firepower to punch a single shield out and reach the hull. Today they don't bother doing that since shield skill points/stats were nerfed along with other sci abilities while at the same time the firepower stats were boosted dramatically.

Quote:
You'd probably even see people make use of different power settings again if the content challenged them hard enough. It's still a good idea to do that in PvP ... well, at least if the opposing team puts up a challenge, and your team is also up to it, else it's pointless.
Sadly no, that would be incorrect. Shifting power levels right now or even if stuff was made harder has very little effect compared to how it used to be simply because weapon power now boosts the ship damage so, SO much more than shield power boosts shield resists/regen and engine has lost its importance and aux..well aux is just for healing nowadays..a healing that also cannot compare to the damage output of = power level weapon.


Quote:
And ... let's be honest, that shouldn't really come as a surprise, either. Most content is old. Since it was released, the only thing that progressed is newer and better ships, newer and better weapons, newer and better consoles ... not newer and harder content.
I agree. However making content more difficult because one ship type (escorts since they make use of tactical ability slots which are the SNAFU here) only screws the other two ship types and pushes them into insignificance.

In fact, that is what has been slowly happening in the game right now. elite STFs were upped in 'difficulty' (for cryptic that meant more hull hp and much higher damage output borg nothing else) and the new content (fleet stuff) if you notice is practically tailored to be beaten by very fast ships with absurd damage output. A full crew of cruiser or sci ships have very little hope of successfully defending the fleet starbase assets for example.

Quote:
But the opposite is still true: Cruiser can tank, Science can debuff and CC. A run making use of that is a lot smoother than one that doesn't. No deaths, no repairs, and quite competetive completion times.
Again: while neither Sci nor Cruisers, neither CC nor tanks, are currently needed, that's not really an issue with the current game balance, nor the current combat mechanics. It's a problem with lacking, challenging content.
See thats where I think you are very wrong. Escort can tank much better than a cruiser. They use speed and defense rating to literally not get hit while the npc has all the aggro on him. Crowd control is best done by the lightning fast escorts... in elites the tractor repulsor(LT skill!) alone outperforms a fully kitted crowd control sci ship simply because he can repulsor the targets 20km away while the sci ship will barely take them past 10km. Again, speed. Debuffs? Hardly needed with the escorts massive firepower. See the pattern here?

Quote:
Science is not broken. Science doesn't need a general buff. (Just some small ability fixes). What Science really needs is content that can't just be facerolled.
Same with Cruisers and Engs, btw, which are complaining even more often.I'm probably sounding like a broken record already, am I?
Still, once more, as a TL;DR.
You're still asking for the wrong change.
Don't ask for a Tac-nerf, or a buff to Sci/Eng/Cruisers that'd allow them to faceroll just as hard as Tac - ask for content that actually challenges groups enough so that Sci and Eng and Cruisers can show that they're not broken. Because they ain't.
Tac needs the nerf as badly as sci and engineer needs a buff. Just to get them back to pre-f2p functionality. Right now the scale is so tilted in the tactical ships favor that any attempt to make the game more challenging simply will make it impossible for the other 2 classes.

I posted a proposal to improve sci by re-designing its role and somewhat bring it back to pre-f2p level without stepping on tactical's dps role. Look it up.

However, as stated earlier... it will not happen. The devs do not care about the classes they cannot peddle items and powerups to.

DPS sells, anything else detracts from DPS and its sales. Thats all she wrote.
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 18
09-25-2012, 10:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Have you tried to 'faceroll' an elite STF with just cruisers or science ships? Or both..without any escorts? You simply cannot 'faceroll' with those ships.
Hmmm ...
Does four-man'ing ISE count, with my Eng in her MAC being highest dps at ~3.5k (the fifth was too busy rolling need on all loot to ever leave spawn, so I won't count him), with optional successful?
Or soloing double waves of Negh'var+Raptors on my Sci/Sci in his RSV in CSE because all the othere were doing was popping Cubes and ignoring adds?
Or soloing whole sides in KASE and ISE, including probes and cubes, with either my Sci/Sci or my Eng/Crui?
Or just any of the runs with completed optionals that had one of them as top dps?
I've been parsing my STF runs, so I know that my Sci/Sci RSV usually clocks in at 3.8 to 4k dps over the complete run, and that's still using Mk XI non-borg weapons, and my Eng/Crui MAC usually gets to 3.5k dps. While that's not in the same league as a good Escort or Carrier (that'd be 6k+), it's still more than enough for any current content. I've had optionals completed with total group dps at no more than 10k, and at 15k it just gets trivial - that's barely 3k average dps, any Sci or Cruiser can do that and more.
Yes, you certainly can faceroll through any STF if everyone played at that level. Not with gimps that barely (or not even) out-dps a shuttle, but with people who can play, yes, easily.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Sadly no, that would be incorrect. Shifting power levels right now or even if stuff was made harder has very little effect compared to how it used to be simply because weapon power now boosts the ship damage so, SO much more than shield power boosts shield resists/regen and engine has lost its importance and aux..well aux is just for healing nowadays..a healing that also cannot compare to the damage output of = power level weapon.
Ummm ... right ... because it totally makes no difference to have shields reduce incoming damage by another 20%, or your heals clocking in at nearly twice the effect. That certainly won't keep you alive any longer than to just keep shooting ... Oh, wait! I does!
C'mon, you have to be kidding me. At full Shields and AUX you can tank through a lot of stuff that'd simply kill you on full Weapons. Especially in PvP, but also in PvE when you pulled a but more aggro than you intended (*caugh* Starbase Defense *caugh* or KASE if you're tanking the spawning Nanites, or ...)


Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
See thats where I think you are very wrong. Escort can tank much better than a cruiser. They use speed and defense rating to literally not get hit while the npc has all the aggro on him. Crowd control is best done by the lightning fast escorts... in elites the tractor repulsor(LT skill!) alone outperforms a fully kitted crowd control sci ship simply because he can repulsor the targets 20km away while the sci ship will barely take them past 10km. Again, speed. Debuffs? Hardly needed with the escorts massive firepower. See the pattern here?
This is where you really lost me. Escorts tank better than Cruisers? WTF?
Cruiser can move, too, you know? The defense bonus cap for Cruisers isn't that much lower than for Escorts either. And even with APO and Evasive trait, you'll still get hit in an Escort - the difference being that if that happens, the Escort goes *BOOM* and the Cruiser gets to heal up from 30% HP left. Well, unless it's one of those 300k+ Torp Spreads that can even one-shot my KDF Sci's Vo'quv ...
Still, have you tried tanking Donatra in an Escort? *BOOM*! A gate? *BOOM*! Escorts can be tanky, but against serious bosses, they make for nice firework. A well-build Cruiser can tank them without a single death. 'Been there, done that, on both sides of the Cruiser/Escort split.

And ... comparing a TR1 to what you can do with Grav-Well or Tiken's? Seriously? Grav-well keeps complete spawn-waves locked down. Tiken's shuts down complete waves, and even STF bosses - no shields, no weapons, no movement! And a Sci Ship can carry three of those, not just one!
Are you even playing this game?


You want the game back to the old mechanics. Fine, I get that. But you won't get the devs to do so if you're making up arguments. If you're making Sci look super-gimped far beyond reality. They're not THAT dumb.
Or ... are you actually believing the stuff you just said? That'd be ...
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,975
# 19
09-25-2012, 10:39 PM
I have a fun challenge for you. Figure out the amount of effective hit points an escort has with the following:

2x Shield Consoles
2x Armor Consoles (1 plasma/1 kinetic)
3x Shield Distro Doffs
2x Epower to shields
1x Transfer Shield Strength
Mk 12 STF shield (doesn't matter which)
2 and/or Piece borg set

Then figure out it's average sustain amount per minute. It is disgusting. There are many problems within the game at the moment leading to the current balance problems, or complete lack of balance atleast.

Sustain/Resist amounts are insane. Getting over 50% shield resist is not that difficult and the sheer amount of self healing available to even an escort is nutty, combined with how damage mods stack (some are multiplicative) compared to most other mods and that once you have enough tank to survive you can focus everything else on damage and you get what we currently gots.

When a ship is designed to deal tons of burst damage but has nothing to prevent it from continuing to do that damage all the time you have a problem.

This messes up everything.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 20
09-26-2012, 05:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
I have a fun challenge for you[...]
That's ... actually not even remotely fun to do, unless you simplify it so much that you screw the results. Also, let's keep the math limited to the power-levels thread, it fits nicely in there, while it would derail this one.

That aside, it's not only Escorts running that setup. All ships are, plus/minus one TSS. Plus of course the dual TT (or single DOff'ed TT) that you forgot to mention. It's the currently mandatory setup to stay alive. On any ship.
And it scales pretty well with base stats against burst-damage, which is the only serious threat left - any ship can out-sustain quite a lot of incoming damage if it's not too bursty.

But: burst damage is quite an issue in STFs. Murderous cannon-barages or torpedo-spreads are what kills people, not sustained damage. Simplified, you either stay alive forever, or get one- or two-shot.
That's where a good tank comes in, since a Cruiser can actually take one or even two of those bursts, and still heal up quickly enough for the next. An Escort goes *BOOM*.
That's also where Tyken's shines, as Weapon Power <25 means: no more of those, weapon systems are disabled. And Tyken's II or III at decent AUX levels packs enough of a drain to acomplish that.

Result: a group with one Sci/debuff and one Eng/Cruiser-tank ends up both reducing the number of opportunities for such burst-attacks, as well as being able to tank those that occur.
A pure Escort-group ends up zerking: Get one-shot, repair, respawn, dps until it's your time again to get one-shot.
And these deaths cost enough dps to make up for the lower sustained dps of bringing the Sci/debuff and Eng/Cruiser-tank along. With Sci-debuffs also lowering shield effectiveness, or even totally draining all shields completely, the more balanced group can even achieve quicker completions.

... it's just not necessary, Escort-zerking works well enough with current content. That's the problem.

P.S.: I'm not saying the current mechanic is perfect. It certainly isn't. It's just too much sustain on everyone, I'll agree with that. On the other hand, it's not too bad either - you still benefit from dedicated roles, and the high level of sustain makes the pure-healer role obsolete in PvE, which is a good thing since that's a pretty un-fun role to play in the first place, which is why more and more games are changing from the classic Tank/Heal/DPS trinity to a Tank/DPS/Buff&Debuff trinity with self-sustain - STO in space is already there, it just needs some fine-tuning to balance.

Last edited by flekh; 09-26-2012 at 05:53 AM. Reason: Added P.S.
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