Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
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# 21
09-28-2012, 02:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
the akira is one of the newest heavy cruiser designs starfleet has fielded, the other slightly newer being the sovereign. you can visibly see on the cgi model they used in the show a huge number of torpedo bays and a very long phaser array, longer then the sovereign's longest actually.

its an absurd notion to think the defiant could out gun an akira, the defiant was only a match for an 80 year old light cruiser. the excelsior is a MUCH older design, the akira is state of the art and has at least 50% more volume then an excelsior. it could take out an excelsior, or 2, easily.

ive long griped that the akira and defiant were at the wrong tier, glad im not the only one who noticed.
Sigh. Not this bogus argument AGAIN. I really suggest that you go back and watch "Paridise Lost" and "Homefront" again. It is explicitly stated that the Lakota had undergone significant upgrades to it weapons system, which made sense since it was the only starship that was guarding the entire Sol system. O'Brien explicitly states that the Lakota had "... a LOT of firepower for an Excelsior class ship". So any suggestion of the Lakota operating under 23rd Century weapons specifications is completely untrue.

Additionally, there is precedent even as far back as TOS that a much smaller ship that's designed for attack can put a whoppin' on a much larger capital ship. In "Journey to Babel", the Orion ship was handly beating Kirk's Enterprise, the same Enterprise which according to Scotty, could handle and survive the attack of the equivalent of 400 photon torpedos (from Nomad in "The Changeling"). The small Orion scout ship was almost putting as much of a pounding on the Enterprise as Nomad, which was also significantly smaller than the Enterprise.

Also, applying your logic, given the volume and the crew size of a typical Borg Cube (129,000+ Drones according to Data in "Q-Who") it would take 100+ Galaxy Class Ships (GCS)to match the firepower of an average cube (1000 Crew * 100+ GCS) = 100,000+ Crewmembers. We would NEVER survive any one on one (or five on one in STF's)encounters in this game if we apply your logic.

You can't have it both ways. Either sheer volume and crew size are always decisive and determinative in battle or other factors (such as design intent of the vessel) matter. You can't pick and choose what you to be the deciding factor and ignore other info that is explicity stated from the episodes.
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# 22
09-28-2012, 02:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by polaronbeam1 View Post
Sigh. Not this bogus argument AGAIN. I really suggest that you go back and watch "Paridise Lost" and "Homefront" again. It is explicitly stated that the Lakota had undergone significant upgrades to it weapons system, which made sense since it was the only starship that was guarding the entire Sol system. O'Brien explicitly states that the Lakota had "... a LOT of firepower for an Excelsior class ship". So any suggestion of the Lakota operating under 23rd Century weapons specifications is completely untrue.

Additionally, there is precedent even as far back as TOS that a much smaller ship that's designed for attack can put a whoppin' on a much larger capital ship. In "Journey to Babel", the Orion ship was handly beating Kirk's Enterprise, the same Enterprise which according to Scotty, could handle and survive the attack of the equivalent of 400 photon torpedos (from Nomad in "The Changeling"). The small Orion scout ship was almost putting as much of a pounding on the Enterprise as Nomad, which was also significantly smaller than the Enterprise.

Also, applying your logic, given the volume and the crew size of a typical Borg Cube (129,000+ Drones according to Data in "Q-Who") it would take 100+ Galaxy Class Ships (GCS)to match the firepower of an average cube (1000 Crew * 100+ GCS) = 100,000+ Crewmembers. We would NEVER survive any one on one (or five on one in STF's)encounters in this game if we apply your logic.

You can't have it both ways. Either sheer volume and crew size are always decisive and determinative in battle or other factors (such as design intent of the vessel) matter. You can't pick and choose what you to be the deciding factor and ignore other info that is explicity stated from the episodes.

im just going to disregard all the crap that has nothing to do with anything, and focus on the excelsior vs akira.

it doesn't mater how upgraded the lakota was, its not going to be able to beat a cruiser that is larger then it, brand new, and built with everything and more that the lakota was upgraded to have.

the lakota wasn't even upgraded enough to have a single exterior detail changed on it, it didn't even have phaser arrays. obrian remarking that it had a lot of firepower for an excelsior class hardly means its a heavy hitter compared to anything else. i seriously doubt any excelsior in the 2360s was operating with the same firepower it did when it was launched, even the least upgraded example probably has twice the firepower of the original

the lakota is about 15 times larger then the defient, theres your david and goliath. a tiny new ship built only to battle is a match for an 80 year old general purpose workhouse thats 15 times larger then it, thats still commendable.

an akira that has the same level of tech as a defient, hilariously more torpedo firepower, an array that can hit as hard as a 2 or 3 shot quad cannon burst, and the fact that its almost 23 times larger then the defiant, means the defiant is completely out of its league.
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Captain
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# 23
09-28-2012, 03:00 PM
The Lakota had significant of work in its upgrading, it had Quantum torpedoes that were certainly not standard and its had its phasers upgraded (and in typical DS9 fashion from what to what we are not told).

And yes its not visible ... no **** since it was the USS Excelsior model after it was changed to be the Enterprise-B, it was even supposed to look like the "normal" Excelsior but Generations movie changed the model so they got stuck with the Enterprise-B model, when it was sold it still had the Lakota name and registry number.
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# 24
09-28-2012, 03:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post

an akira that has the same level of tech as a defient, hilariously more torpedo firepower, an array that can hit as hard as a 2 or 3 shot quad cannon burst, and the fact that its almost 23 times larger then the defiant, means the defiant is completely out of its league.
Can you back those calculations up or are you just making up numbers for a ships weapons again?
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# 25
09-28-2012, 04:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron View Post
The Lakota had significant of work in its upgrading, it had Quantum torpedoes that were certainly not standard and its had its phasers upgraded (and in typical DS9 fashion from what to what we are not told).

And yes its not visible ... no **** since it was the USS Excelsior model after it was changed to be the Enterprise-B, it was even supposed to look like the "normal" Excelsior but Generations movie changed the model so they got stuck with the Enterprise-B model, when it was sold it still had the Lakota name and registry number.
citation needed. its phasers were more powerful, and it had advanced torpedo ammunition loaded, anything beyond that is fanwank.

the lakota was the enterprise b model, before that it was the original excelsior model. they tacked on bits to it so they could damage something without damaging the core model itself in generations. they didn't bother tacking on anything new to the model for the lakota's showing, they certainly could have if they wanted to make the thing look significantly tougher.

an excelsior brought as close to modern spec as possible is still a ship with up to 80 year old bones. an entirely new constriction of similar size will always be better then an updated old design. in this case they arent even of similar size, the akira has almost 1.5 times more volume then an excelcior


Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
Can you back those calculations up or are you just making up numbers for a ships weapons again?
in a thread on a now dead forum there were attempt to calculate how powerful some of the best shots of a galaxy class were and compare them to how powerful the defiant's pulse cannons were. i cant remember details, but the closest thing to a conclusion was that 4 to 5 seconds worth of constant cannon fire was about as powerful as a galaxy's best shot. judging by the length of the akira's largest array, i just threw in a ball park number based on what i could remember. go a head and disregard that bit if you wish, it changed nothing.
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# 26
09-28-2012, 05:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
citation needed. its phasers were more powerful, and it had advanced torpedo ammunition loaded, anything beyond that is fanwank.
Missed my complain about DS9 lack of technical details?

Quote:
the lakota was the enterprise b model, before that it was the original excelsior model. they tacked on bits to it so they could damage something without damaging the core model itself in generations.
What did I said?

Also you seen to be under the impression Generations was done AFTER Paradise Lost, it was not as Paradise Lost aired in 8 January 1996 and Generations premiered in 18 November 1994.

They needed a Excelsior model, the only one that existed was now the Enterprise-B, they WANTED to use the "regular" Excelsior look but no models existed and they could not just make one (well they could but would raise production costs and there were time constraints)


Quote:
they didn't bother tacking on anything new to the model for the lakota's showing, they certainly could have if they wanted to make the thing look significantly tougher.
They did not wanted to use a NEW model, they wanted a regular Excelsior without any parts and bits on it.

Quote:
an excelsior brought as close to modern spec as possible is still a ship with up to 80 year old bones. an entirely new constriction of similar size will always be better then an updated old design. in this case they arent even of similar size, the akira has almost 1.5 times more volume then an excelcior
So what?

The venerable K't'inga Battlecruiser retained the same profile and it was in operation BEFORE the Excelsior even left spacedock.

Same with the Klingon Bird-of-prey that retained the same profile even if its size was ... "variable".

So either the Klingon Empire is known from keeping ANTIQUATED AND UNFIT FOR ACTIVE DUTY starships or ... how it looks means NOTHING, they dont need to add bling on it so the "audience" can understand "its more powerful"

Quote:
in a thread on a now dead forum there were attempt to calculate how powerful some of the best shots of a galaxy class were and compare them to how powerful the defiant's pulse cannons were. i cant remember details, but the closest thing to a conclusion was that 4 to 5 seconds worth of constant cannon fire was about as powerful as a galaxy's best shot. judging by the length of the akira's largest array, i just threw in a ball park number based on what i could remember. go a head and disregard that bit if you wish, it changed nothing.
Oh?

So let me get this ... when I say something its "citation needed" BUT you can just pulled a "someone said somewhere this so I am right"?

... Right ... and I hope you are not expecting a reply to SPECULATION of the outsourced type.

And I am out.
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# 27
09-28-2012, 06:43 PM
im really not sure what your trying to argue. you apparently misread what i said about the excelsior model, i know its history, the lakota was its last use. the excelsior model was modified into the enterprise b model so it could have a section they could damage without damaging an original part on the model. after generations they seem to have 'fixed' the model and used it in paradise lost a few years later. i actually heard somewhere they wanted to use the ambassador class model for that episode, but they had lost the damn thing lol

federation and klingon ships are apples and oranges. they arent general purpose, they are combat vessels. klingon ships fit the defiant's description, just a warp core, armor and weapons. starfleet ships are general purpose and can become out dated more easily, apparently. thus all the new classes over the years.

since the days of the excelsior and ktinga being newish designs, phasers have gone through a paragon shift, the old banks arent put on new designs in favor of better in every way phaser arrays. klingons disruptors have gone through no such fundamental change, new versions are likely designed to fit in the same foot print as older versions to easily upgrade currently in service designs.

not having arrays obsoletes a design hard, it apparently wasn't even worth it to starfleet to retrofit arrays onto excelsior for some reason. out of universe, they could have easily put arrays on excelsiors and mirandas that they built in cgi, but they didn't unfortunately. they could have build a phaser strip to fit over the ball turrets on the lakota model too, but they didn't.

claiming the lakota is massively upgraded in every way is fan wank, an analysis of canon weapons fire and its effect is a bit more scientific then that. im not saying that conclusion is absolutely correct, but there was enough consistency to see a pattern, and approximate. throw it out, i don't care. based on evidence i have seen i more or less believe it

'thats a lot of firepower for an excelsior class ship' isn't all that much to go on. speculation about its warp drive by kira/worf/whoever is just that, speculation. they could only tell that its phasers were stronger then they expected. there isn't dozens of examples of the lakota in action to draw a conclusion from, like there is for galaxy and defiant weapons fire.

none of that is important, its really as simple as

lakota=defiant (regardless of how upgraded the lakota is)

akira>lakota (has everything the lakota has and more, 15 torp launchers, 1.5 times the size)

so

akira>defiant

the rest of this is all pieceing things together were there is information gaps, with varying levels of fan wank effecting people conclusions on things. im not saying im immune from that, though i think the conclusions i have drawn are closest to accurate, naturally.

when i site size differences, im getting volume numbers from here

http://st-v-sw.net/STSWvolumetrics.html

when i talk about phaser arrays and their length, im drawing conclusion from their technical description from the TNG tech manual and what you see them do on screen.

http://www.paragonsigma.com/tempuplo...82%20Pages.pdf

im do my very beat to be subjective on these thing, and only say things based on canon and near canon information. i cant show off the output numbers behind galaxy array/defiant cannons anymore, so if you want to nitpic that i cant show my work, discard the point.
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
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# 28
09-28-2012, 07:59 PM
DDIS, you are being a lot more mature about things this time and I really appreciate it, about the galaxy phasers, I have no doubt the numbers you provide for it are accurate, I believe in the phaser strip ideologie as well.

However, we have no idea what the Defiant and Lakotas output is in destructive power. In such a situation, I will assert again that we must rely upon what we have been shown, in its entirety, by the shows.

Frankly, Defiants performance was much more consistant than that of the galaxy class, TNG included. There is only one instance in Star Trek where the Galaxy class destroys roughly its mass in matter in one shot, during its first engagement with the borg. The Defiant is consistently shown destroying ships of its size in one burst, through the entirety of DS9. In both TNG and DS9, the Galaxy cannot even one shot ships smaller than itself bar one or two occasions where the species are confirmed as significantly lower on the tech scale to the point of using lasers or something.

You seem to think that the only way a federation weapon can be effective is if it is on a long strip, but the klingons and romulans achieve nearly the same and sometimes more destructive power from a single emitter. Is it really so far fetched that the federation could do the same? From what we see in DS9, where a couple defiant bursts can take out a Dominion battleship, I think it is safe to say it is certainly the truth. And thusly, (heheheh thusly) I assert that its completely possible the Lakota was sporting quite powerful weaponry. Even if you deny this, it is just one battle shown in DS9 alongside many others, and it is important to note that both ships were holding back so judging it like a real test of mettle is not the wisest idea.

But back to the Akira comparison.
As for torpedo loadout, a volley of quantum torpedos destroys a breen cruiser in DS9, it literally rips the ship to pieces. I can't remember if the Akira can pack quantums, but if it doesn't that certainly evens the score a good deal. While I like the Akira more and think it could become a better ship with the right tuning and phaser cannon additions, the canon events lead me to believe that its phasers would not do the trick in a comparison, given what we know about Galaxy class ones.

But if you really want to stick to the one time where the Defiant could have been shown as an under-performer, and the one time the Galaxy wrecked like none other, I guess thats cool. The rest of us who value the scientific method like star fleet does will probably err on my side.

Its fun though, and I saw you pvping, any reason you prefer the D7 skin to the K'tinga one?
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# 29
09-28-2012, 11:41 PM
those other threads frustrated the hell out of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
Its fun though, and I saw you pvping, any reason you prefer the D7 skin to the K'tinga one?
oh its a ktinga, its just set to all grey i prefer its impulse engines to the one on the D7 model, and its something i have to stare at a lot.

also the fleet skin sucks on it, that cool orange red paneling the other fleet ships get with the skin the fleet ktinga gets none of, truly the most half assed model in game. thats not even the worst part, when your camera moves far enough away from a ship, it swaps to a low quality model seamlessly, but in the ktinga's case the low quality model it switches too has glowing warp nacelles and a glowing deflector in the front of the 'mission pod'. its like low and high quality model are switched, and no amount of posting about it for years has gotten it addressed. now its playable at end game, so its doubly unacceptable. but anyway...



in DS9 there are few instances were a galaxy class is shown fireing a shot that uses even a quarter of the emitters it has available. the only time i can think of is in the odyssey fight. each emitter, of the 200 it has on its dorsal array, holds its own energy. the more of the array that is part of that moving glow effect on screen, the more emiters there are adding energy to the shot. this directly effects how powerful the shot will be, the number of emitters used is the variable that determines shot power.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d734...7F38EA72A03613

in the odyssey fight, it is said that their weapons are having literally 0 effect against the jem hadar shields, and that their shields were having literally no effect against the jem hadar weapons. and as you can see the bug ships were literally under the saucer before the odyssey even started fighting. it was a truly absurd battle.

when the galaxys fired on that galor, they were using a tiny amount of their array for some reason. shooting to disable i guess? the weak shots against the cardasian weapons platforms were wile they were basically invincible, perhaps they were love taps to see if that shield was still on line? there really was no good examples to draw from ds9 at all for the galaxy fireing anything resembling full power shots.


there is a scene when the cardasians turn on the dominian that a galor destroys a breen ship in 1 beam hit, much like that volly of quantum torpedoes and that 4 second long phaser cannon burst did. that cardasian beam may be vastly underestimated, or even the defients firepower isn't that amazing. remember how much of that borg ship the enterprise could carve up, or how rapidly it could put a ton of torpedoes into play from that single huge launcher? that is firepower.


as for ships like the excelsior, its my theory that under the hull there is a large number of phaser emitter pre fire chambers, and only a single firing part of an emitter attached to them all. so the ship does without the externalized array, and its all internalized.

i doubt the excelsior has enough room for even the number of emitters an ambassador class has in any of its longest arrays though. the lakota having more firepower then expected proboly just means its equipped with type 10 phaser emitter equivalents, as apposed to older type 8 or 9 they mostly had at the time.

regardless, it would take a SIGNIFICANT amount of internal volume to cram the equivalent of a longish phaser array inside the hull like that, at that point they might as well rebuild the exterior of the excelsior's saucer and put a proper array that takes up much less internal volume. an excelsior just cant have that much firepower due to all that in my opinion.
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 216
# 30
09-29-2012, 12:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
Frankly, Defiants performance was much more consistant than that of the galaxy class, TNG included. There is only one instance in Star Trek where the Galaxy class destroys roughly its mass in matter in one shot, during its first engagement with the borg. The Defiant is consistently shown destroying ships of its size in one burst, through the entirety of DS9. In both TNG and DS9, the Galaxy cannot even one shot ships smaller than itself bar one or two occasions where the species are confirmed as significantly lower on the tech scale to the point of using lasers or something.
Just wanted to point a part or two of your post out.

You say that only once do we see the Galaxy destroy roughly its own mass in a single shot, yet we see the Defiant do it all the time.

The Galaxy has a mass of 4,500,000 metric tonnes.
The Defiant has a mass of 355,000 metric tonnes.
4,500,000/355,000=12.68

So the Galaxy can destroy roughly twelve and a half times in one shot what the Defiant can in one burst.
Another way of putting it would be to say that a single Galaxy could destroy 12 Defiants in one blast, yet it would take 13 Defiants to destroy a Galaxy in one burst.

Just sayin.


As for the latter part of the post, I think I have a reason for why the Galaxy seemed so inept in combat against smaller vessels a large amount of the time.
Mind this is just my own opinion.
I look at the Federation and by extension Starfleet as akin to the USA.

The USA has the potential to wipe most nations and threats off the face of map itself.
Yet they never do! Instead they seem to take the most laborious route possible to remove them. Given we are indeed working with rather "limited" space in which to be blowing stuff up here on this planet. I look at the Ent-D's methods in a similar light.

She does indeed appear to be capable of destroying them outright. But wouldn't that kind of fly in the face of the standards and morals of the Federation to just outright blast everything out of the sky in an absurd show of force for every threat?

Not a total explanation, but one nonetheless.

I think that a similar attitude would explain the Galaxy shots against the Galor class in Sacrifice of Angels.
Limiting loss of life. If you watch in those battles there are really only two groups that destroy outright.
That is the Defiant, a Warship and the Klingons.
The Klingons attacks almost always seem to result in the total destruction of the targeted ship.
The same seems to be true of the Defiant as well.

The Klingons doing it makes sense. They don't take prisoners and they don't really care anyways.
The Defiant doing so also seems to make sense. It is a Warship after all, and its primary purpose isn't exactly a broad one.

Last edited by veraticus; 09-29-2012 at 12:16 AM.
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