Lieutenant
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 61
# 1 Escorts and Engineer Captains
09-26-2012, 07:10 AM
So I've been wondering, is there any way to make an engineer escort viable? Here's my story, for the record.

When the Jem'Hadar Attack Ships started dropping in the Gamma Quadrant Duty Officer Packs, I was lucky enough to get one. Like an idiot though, I put it on my Engineer, rather than my Tactical captain. I've been trying ever since to make this engineer bug PvP-viable, to no success.

Now in theory, I can understand why. The Engineer has no skills that help it do damage. Even the Science captain has Sensor Scan and the ever-useful Subnucleonic Beam, and of course Tactical comes with all kinds of damage boosting abilities.

Still, the Engineer captain can stay alive better than either and the Jem'Hadar Attack Ship is one of if not simply the best escort in the game (at least for now), so I should be able to still deal decent damage in it, right?

Except that I don't. My Tactical's Defiant does more. My science's Mutlivector does more. I just can't get DPS out of this thing!

Build as I have it at the moment:

Phased Tetryon Dual Heavy Cannons x3, Tetryon Dual Beam Bank x1
Phased Tetryon Turrets x3

2x Borg Set (Deflector and Engines)
1x MACO Shields

Tactical Team 1, Cannon Rapid Fire 1, Beam Overload 3, Attack Pattern Omega 3
Tactical Team 1, Cannon Rapid Fire 1, Beam Overload 3
Emergency Power to Shields 1, Directed Energy Modulation 1
Tractor Beam 1, Hazard Emitters 2
Emergency Power to Shields 1

5x Tetryon Tactical Consoles
1x Field Emitters
2x Neutronium, 1x Assimilated Module, 1x RCS

1x Red Matter Capacitor
20x Aux Battery

Doffs:
3x Attack Pattern Duty Officers
2x Shield Distribution Officers

And yes, I've made sure to spec into Attack Patterns, energy weapons, etc. No points in torpedo damage since I don't use torpedoes on this build.

The idea was, the Engineer was the best at managing power, thanks to their EPS captain ability. That, plus Red Matter Capacitor, meant that I could get away with dual Beam Overload 3 ... in theory.

In reality, for whatever reason, I'm just not doing much damage. Heck, my other captains in theoretically weaker ships (Defiant and Multivector) do more than this. Please help! What am I doing wrong?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,325
# 2
09-26-2012, 07:21 AM
Looks pretty damn good to me, I'm jelly of your trio of attack pattern doffs! Personally I'd loose the dual beam, as it does great spike damage, but out of the times that it misses, another DHC could put out more damage. It'd also free up skills like a potential delta and some better quality rapid fires, but that said i've seen people using BO in PVP and be a pain in the arse, so what do I know?
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 423
# 3
09-26-2012, 07:34 AM
What you are doing wrong in my own opinion is not de-buffing your target or buffing your own attacks in any meaningful way! You need to invest in buffs/de-buffs as an engineering captain. This is perhaps what I would do in your situation:

T-BO: TT-I | Beam Target Shields-II | CRF-II | APD-III
T-BO: TT-I | Beam Target Shields-II | CRF-II
E-BO: EPTS-I | EPTW-II
E-BO: EPTS-I
S-BO: PH-I | HE-II

OR

T-BO: TT-I | Beam Target Shields-II | CRF-II | APD-III
T-BO: TT-I | Beam Target Shields-II | CRF-II
E-BO: EPTS-I | AUX-SIF-I
E-BO: EPTS-I
S-BO: PH-I | TB-II



How I’d play this out: I would use a single beam array with [ACCx3] modifier. I’d start my attack run with only beam target shields; Rank two of this ability grants you a 30% chance to disable the targets shield altogether and if you are spending skill points to make your tetryon PROC and glider more effective, this is a no brainer move in my own opinion as flow capacitors will complement the decision to use Beam target Shields. Otherwise, the shield power drain is a moderate to weak de-buff to the targets shield resistances; and this you can use to help increase your damage. It also will rather work well with Tetryon weapons and the OMEGA Set tet glider as I’ve already mentioned.

Other than that, I don’t really know how to help you out. Some here will say having PH + HE is a bad idea because they share a cool-down together and to just dump PH for APO! True. However you kind of need to dump APO for APD even though TT will ruin your APD day. Just remember, APD has a longer uptime than TT does by five seconds!! Time it right and you can butt hurt someone who doesn’t realize this fact!

As for dumping PH. That is risky and completely your choice. I wouldn’t do it! Just stay nimble and try not to get yourself in both a tractor beam and a hazard at the same time. You will have to rely on some cross healing in this setup but you will surely deal more DPS in this setup.

That is all I got for you mate. I'm only average... but this is how I'd handle it. Also, remember, with all that extra power your AUX power will be high which will also help out that Beam Target Shields. All of this really complements well in my own opinion.

EDIT: The second build choice has some additional risk, but it is also workable.

Last edited by teleon22; 09-26-2012 at 07:47 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 190
# 4
09-26-2012, 07:47 AM
What are your captain's traits? Do you have Accurate?

Record a few sessions of PvP and watch it with a detached eye. What are you doing? Are you unable to get your DHCs on-target? Hard to believe with a bugship and RCS, but it could happen I guess. What kind of bonuses are you getting from your cannons? Are they [Acc] or something else? What is your energy setup, and how does it act during your alpha strike?

I agree with Aquitaine, drop the DBB for another DHC. Or, potentially try out single cannons if you are having problems staying on-target. Mk XI's are fairly inexpensive, and can give you an idea of how much of an effect the wider cone will have. CSV will also allow you to spray damage; hitting one more player will make up for the slight damage reduction.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 61
# 5
09-26-2012, 07:57 AM
I do have Accurate and Elusive on this particular captain. The cannons are not that great, they're just the standard Acc x2 Phased Tetryons, not all that expensive which is why I went with them.

I think I'll try out telon's build and see how things go. One thing I know for sure is that something's gotta change, because as it currently stands I've had cruisers out-damage me. That's just sad; no cruiser should ever out-DPS a bug.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 423
# 6
09-26-2012, 08:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ertihan View Post
I think I'll try out telon's build and see how things go. One thing I know for sure is that something's gotta change, because as it currently stands I've had cruisers out-damage me. That's just sad; no cruiser should ever out-DPS a bug.
I'd wait and get a bit more feedback. I'm only moderate at PVP.

The Skill Point allocation will be important in the build I presented. I'm sure you realize that however.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 575
# 7
09-26-2012, 08:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ertihan View Post
I do have Accurate and Elusive on this particular captain. The cannons are not that great, they're just the standard Acc x2 Phased Tetryons, not all that expensive which is why I went with them.

I think I'll try out telon's build and see how things go. One thing I know for sure is that something's gotta change, because as it currently stands I've had cruisers out-damage me. That's just sad; no cruiser should ever out-DPS a bug.
A tac cruiser can easily put out more dps than you, if properly built. Don't judge your performance based on dps at the end of the match since that's very misleading. A tac cruiser spamming faw can also out damage a tac escort, especially a tac kdf cruiser. There isn't too much hope for an engi to improve dps unfortunately, but since you lack the damage boost a tac has, I'd personally add a dbb front, 1 or 2bo3, a quantum torp in front, spec for torps, and hope that bo3 combo with hy torp would take a shield facing down and torps hit bar hull. Also, some beam target engines are also a viable option. If you cant do much damage at least you can debuff pretty well. I know you don't like the idea but an engi will never be able to be as successful as a tac or a sci in anything but a cruiser.
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Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 170
# 8
09-26-2012, 09:29 AM
EPtW gives a damage bonus, but Engineers often get into a routine of using 2 EPtS instead.

While this may not help all Escorts, EPtW3 on a heavy escort carrier works well as an additional spike damage option.

What also works well for Engineers in Escorts is leveraging power advantages for speed. If you learn to fight at very high speed, the defense bonus from high speed can make it difficult for opponents to hit you, particularly cannon folks who you can outmanoeuvre, and combined with rotate shield frequency can make the escort a pain in the butt to kill- allowing you to focus on damage.

Engineers in Escorts can work, but you have to build your ship like an Engineer, not a Tact, to be effective.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 575
# 9
09-26-2012, 10:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by echodarksided View Post
EPtW gives a damage bonus, but Engineers often get into a routine of using 2 EPtS instead.

While this may not help all Escorts, EPtW3 on a heavy escort carrier works well as an additional spike damage option.

What also works well for Engineers in Escorts is leveraging power advantages for speed. If you learn to fight at very high speed, the defense bonus from high speed can make it difficult for opponents to hit you, particularly cannon folks who you can outmanoeuvre, and combined with rotate shield frequency can make the escort a pain in the butt to kill- allowing you to focus on damage.

Engineers in Escorts can work, but you have to build your ship like an Engineer, not a Tact, to be effective.
EPtoW gives no damage bonus unless you run beams. Beams have a different power management and when using beams, it's recommended to go over 125 power cap. For cannons there is no bonus in damage because of different than beams cannon power management. The EPtoW bonus you get while using beams is that you increase the total power available to weapons, from which cannons don't benefit. There is not a per se, damage bonus, it's a power bonus that in case of beams, due to they're drains and power management, allow you to shoot your beams at higher power (like at 125+gain from eptow) than w/o EPtoW. Eptow3 is no matter what ship you fly a waste of lt commander slot, you can always use a aux2struct, eps3, dem, aux2id with much better benefit than eptw3.

Defense bonus does not increase if you go over impulse 24, the benefit of moving fast though is that your opponents will have a hard time targeting you. What adds some damage resistance is apo, ph, aud2id and aux2struct etc. defense is though increased by evasive maneuvers and cloak.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,599
# 10
09-26-2012, 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trueprom3theus View Post
EPtoW gives no damage bonus unless you run beams. Beams have a different power management and when using beams, it's recommended to go over 125 power cap. For cannons there is no bonus in damage because of different than beams cannon power management. The EPtoW bonus you get while using beams is that you increase the total power available to weapons, from which cannons don't benefit. There is not a per se, damage bonus, it's a power bonus that in case of beams, due to they're drains and power management, allow you to shoot your beams at higher power (like at 125+gain from eptow) than w/o EPtoW. Eptow3 is no matter what ship you fly a waste of lt commander slot, you can always use a aux2struct, eps3, dem, aux2id with much better benefit than eptw3.

Defense bonus does not increase if you go over impulse 24, the benefit of moving fast though is that your opponents will have a hard time targeting you. What adds some damage resistance is apo, ph, aud2id and aux2struct etc. defense is though increased by evasive maneuvers and cloak.
EPtW only gives you a 5 second damage buff, a cruel joke really.

and yes, overcaping helps cannons plenty. looking like it doesn't with 2 single cannons apparently does not apply to a full setup of 7 or 8 weapons. with EPtW1, i rarely have my weapons energy dip below 100 with 4 DHC and 4 turrets.and it drops much lower without it
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